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Reply #630 - December 02, 2015, 08:54 PM

Quote from: three on December 02, 2015, 03:18 AM
maybe you should've studied the deen a bit and learned that having contact with strangers is HARAAM, more so if you are freaking MARRIED. seriously!!!

Poor woman needs help and this is a response she gets..

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?455984-Married-but-want-to-divorce-him-and-here-for-true-advice

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #631 - December 02, 2015, 11:14 PM

I am hardly surprised, the first thing people on that forum will do in any situations is scream about how you shouldn't talk to non-Mahrams.

On the other hand I am surprised by this: guy is in love with his khaala
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?458744-In-love-with-a-girl-in-my-family-but-she-is-my-khaala-aunt-in-relation
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Reply #632 - December 02, 2015, 11:30 PM

*Cringe*

I'm not going to judge him based on who he loves, but this is one good reason why converts/reverts should leave this family-based/tribal way of life called, "Islam." Muslims say Islam came to eradicate tribalism, but I call BS on that. Don't care what the Prophet said about tribalism or what hadeeth you bring me of him condemning it. Muhammad operated on tribalism.

It really leaves no wiggle room for any converts to build anything with Arabs, or people outside their culture.

And then the Arabs etc want to say, "Converts leave Islam because of social issues and culture, but not because of Islam itself." Well I say that's false.

Everybody marries within each other. A social disaster that brings racism and tribalism. When I left Islam, Muslims were telling me, "Don't worry about racism. It happens." Or they said, "You have point" and couldn't refute me.

The problem is Muslims are led to believe that the whole world operates like this, and this is false. Yes, the rest of the world may have preferences when it comes to race, but they're never like, "Oh he's not from our culture, therefore don't marry him." YES, simple-minded people who are not Muslim may think that way too, but isn't Islam supposed to offer the BEST WAY OF LIFE?

I'd rather be free.

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #633 - December 02, 2015, 11:56 PM

Is that really so? I come from a convert family so didn't experience that tribalism, especially since my parents don't come from the same culture. But I do know some people from my parent's cultures who frown on people who date/marry outside of it. It's to a lesser extent than Arab tribalism but it's there. There are people who may even go as far as to disown their children if they have a relationship with someone from the "wrong" race.

But I do see what your saying. Muslims are always preaching Muhammad's final sermon and dismissing issues of racism in Islamic communities by saying "there is no racism in Islam".
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Reply #634 - December 03, 2015, 12:14 AM

There have definitely been exceptions to what I posted,

I've seen white males marry Somali women, a Palestenian man willing to marry an African-American woman, etc..

But there's always a problem and it's deep rooted in culture.

One can make an argument and say "Everyone goes through this" but I don't think I've seen it as severe as it was with Muslims. Perhaps Hinduism is worse with the caste system..

And don't get me wrong, I always see Islamic speakers speaking about this subject with the fluffy, "there should be no racism in islam!" and "islam wiped racism off the planet 1400 yrs ago"

I just think Muhammad had a lot to do with the racism among muslims today. "Banu" this and "Bani" that. We're encouraged to have names like, "Fulan al-Baghdadi" "Fulan al-Maghribi" or "Fulan al-Emreekee"

Why is it that important to state where we are from? I also pull from my experience that I hear way too many stories of Muslims categorizing a race of people to as such.

"The Moroccans are very laid back people."
"Indian people are usually stupid because they worship rats."
"African-Americans carry a rough Islam with them."
"Algerian Muslims are very tough people akhee"

All in while the non-muslim "kuffar" are looking beyond this and are developing technology.

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #635 - December 03, 2015, 12:29 AM

Oh yes, Saudi Arabia was rife with racism and it is definitely a huge issue in many Muslim countries. That being said I have been told things about Russia that makes me scared at the thought of going there. My ethnicity is one that is despised in a number of countries around the world . So although I have seen ugly racism in Muslim communities, I can't say that non-Muslim nations are much better because to me a fair number of them would not be.

But of course, this means that Islam did not eradicate racism because the situation in Muslim countries proves otherwise. Furthermore what you are saying about the tribalism being worst in Islam is true; Islam is essentially 6th century Arabian culture. So despite how diverse Muslims are, all must aspire to be live like Arabians 1400 years ago.
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Reply #636 - December 03, 2015, 12:46 AM

Of course,

I didn't want to make it seem like non-muslims are way advanced when it comes to the issue of racism.

Racism will always exist. My point is exactly what you said. It goes back to the desire of wanting to live like a 7th century Arab, and that doesn't take care of the issue of racism.. It may be a peaceful medium for many to feel like racism doesn't exist. I felt really good when I pretended I was an Arab. I talked like one, let my beard grow, knew Arab poetry, etc. I felt that if everyone can emulate an Arab, racism would vanish. It doesn't work.

Deep down I felt great, but I also knew deep down I would never be an Arab.. And Muslims from Yemen (where the culture prides itself on being Arab) definitely let me know I wasn't Arab and that I was a pretender. Not only Yemenis, but other countries.

It just seemed that EVERYWHERE I went as a Muslim, the Muslims first question would be "WHERE ARE YOU FROM?" And I don't REALLY get this that much from non-Muslims. Of course they ask, but to Muslims it seemed it had more significance to them because they would be let down after I let them know that my country wasn't an arab speaking one or an Urdu speaking one.

When you get into the Muslim mindset, countries like Russia, Ireland, and un-Islamic countries are not a priority. If a disaster struck their country, we'd say, "That's because of the shirk in that country." I just think there's some tribalist mindset that comes with Islam for sure.

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #637 - December 03, 2015, 12:57 AM

Bigotry towards non-Muslims and the inferiority complex to Arabs is something that is unique to Muslims for sure, which contradicts that there is no racism in Islam. I understand what you've been trying to say now.

You know what another thing is? Some people convert to Islam mainly for those reasons; they may feel inadequate and Islam gives them the superiority complex which they always crave. I have met intolerant converts who are always talking about how filthy the "Kufaar" are and how they need Islam in their lives. They seem to forget that they are (in most cases) talking about members of their own family as well. They talk about how Saudi Arabia is the best place to live and all want to move to Makkah or Medina one day. Ironically many of them would be treated like crap in Saudi.
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Reply #638 - December 03, 2015, 01:23 AM

"they may feel inadequate and Islam gives them the superiority complex which they always crave. I have met intolerant converts who are always talking about how filthy the "Kufaar" are and how they need Islam in their lives"

Yes that is a great point. And yes, they would be treated like crap except for the white converts. White people have power over there. My former white convert friend told me that shamelessly. He told me he was speeding for fun. He said that he was pulled over by the Saudi police, and once they saw he was white, they were afraid to write him a ticket, and backed off.

And not only is what I'm talking about an "Arab" problem. You find it in Deobandis. Deobandis are relentless Pakistanis trying to tell the Arabs that "they got it right" and that the Arabs follow the "incorrect Hanbali understanding."

Ahmadiyyah is also another Indian thing that's trying to say, "Hey Arabs, we got it right."

Iran's people are speaking Farsi, "Hey Arabs, we got it right."

A Turkish man told me, "Don't learn Islam from the Arabs" -(funny, right? haha)

It goes on and on.. Why do we have this problem? It's because Muhammad incorporated culture when he taught Islam.

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #639 - December 03, 2015, 09:06 AM

Yeah, noticed that when I was there. Had a White convert telling me how lovely and courteous all Saudis are once

That's not to say that I'm hating on Saudis; there are some great people over there. But I have never been to a country where racism was more rampant, it really was the norm.

Some of the different sects of Islam are probably a result of people who embraced the religion from non-Arab cultures being unable to relate to it very well. I just find them all baffling
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Reply #640 - December 03, 2015, 03:30 PM

"Some of the different sects of Islam are probably a result of people who embraced the religion from non-Arab cultures being unable to relate to it very well."

That's an interesting point that should be brought up. I believe the Indians and Pakistanis have a softer, Sufi version of Islam because of their inherit nature to be lovers and not fighters. Hinduism has existed for many centuries in India. It had to influence them.

And Arabia before it even became Saudi Arabia has always been Bedouin in culture. So they're not afraid of Wahabi Islam.

I'm learning about the Saudi Royal Family now, and now I see how the Wahabi institutions affect Americans.

I heard Madinah was a great place. I hear there's no racism there. That's the only place I would be interested to visit in Saudi.

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #641 - December 03, 2015, 04:17 PM

There is racism everywhere. I became aware of Saudi racism while living in Madinah itself. The foreign workers are treated with very little difference from how slaves must have been treated and are denied human dignity regularly. My Saudi landlord who was of Turkish descent would tell you that the city was much better before it was settled by the Bedouin tribes throughout the 30's, 40's 50's and 60's. But then again, that might have just been his own racism talking.
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Reply #642 - December 03, 2015, 04:26 PM

Thanks for telling me that, happymurtad.

You saved me a trip. I was going to pretend I was Muslim and go for hajj one day, solely because of Madinah... But I don't think I'm interested anymore.

It's really sad.. I started debating a guy from Dubai about Islam, and I swear I didn't say anything racist or insult him in any way.. He became frustrated that I was owning him, and he said, "You're Indian, and Indian people are bitches, that's why they think the way they do."

Then he preceded to talk to me as a slave.. It's really sad. I would hope many Muslims wouldn't stoop this low, but they do.. Slavery is part of their religion..

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #643 - December 03, 2015, 04:50 PM

Most people who visit Madinah don’t venture too far away from the Prophet’s Mosque, which is a pretty awesome spot as joints like that go. If you’re spending most of your time praying in the Rawdah, then you don’t really get to see what the real city is actually like.

I once heard a woman talking about how great Saudi Arabia was for women because while she was at hajj was the only time she was able to pray next to men in a mosque. In reality, there is segregation in the haram (masjid al-haram) during the rest of the year, you just don’t get to see it during hajj because it’s so chaotic.

Madinah is an extremely conservative city. As Islam goes, it probably is the most devout city on the planet. But it’s still just a city. The same crap that goes on in cities everywhere goes on there. I had a Saudi cop, who was giving me a ride once, tell me, “if you knew what went on inside of this haram, you wouldn’t think it was holy.” Apparently, hiding right in the throng of worshipers is the perfect place for things like drug deals, pimp appointments, bribe payments, etc.
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Reply #644 - December 03, 2015, 05:11 PM

When my brother worked in the Gulf area, specifically Kuwait,in the '80s, his experience was that the older bedouin were courteous and polite to Indians and others of colour, unlike the younger generation. By now most of that older generation must have passed away.
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Reply #645 - December 03, 2015, 05:13 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on December 03, 2015, 04:50 PM
“if you knew what went on inside of this haram, you wouldn’t think it was holy.” Apparently, hiding right in the throng of worshipers is the perfect place for things like drug deals

To be fair one can make the argument that doing hajj while smoking a joint enhances the spiritual experience.

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Reply #646 - December 03, 2015, 05:49 PM

"To be fair one can make the argument that doing hajj while smoking a joint enhances the spiritual experience. "

I'd probably be paranoid if I were high and they were pelting stones at a pillar.

The stories could go on.. My former Lebanese friend was friends with one of the princes of Saudi.. The most memorable story he told me was that when the prince walked into the mall, it was routine that niqabis threw a piece of paper with their name and numbers on it. This didn't mean that they were "interested." This meant that they wanted to have sex with the Prince. My Lebanese friend was religious, and didn't want to tell me this story, but he wanted to illustrate that Saudi was not perfect but that it still was an Islamic country and that we shouldn't make takfir.

Another thing was that I knew Muslims that were formerly in the U.S. military. The rich upper class Kuwaitis LOVED Muslims in the U.S. military. So I would hear stories that these rich Kuwaiti Muslims who held on to the Wahabi teachings of Islam would be snorting coke all day everyday. And they even ventured as far as heroin..

When I was Salafi myself, these stories troubled me. But I justified it to myself, "they're only human."

But I couldn't help but ask myself, "Why am I holding on to these beliefs, if everyone in the world is normal, human, and the same?"

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
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Reply #647 - December 03, 2015, 09:32 PM

How we can marry more than one wife in these modern days -Abdur-Raheem Green
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?458757-How-can-we-marry-more-than-one-wife-in-these-modern-days-Abdur-Raheem-Green
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Reply #648 - December 03, 2015, 09:53 PM

"My brothers and sisters, polygamy is one of the best gifts given by Allah."

What a huge headache that we have to deal with. Many muslim men say that sisters are too westernized to understand it.

All of them including AR Green say, "if it's practiced properly, it's good" and this is the excuse many muslims say.

This is not even a "right or wrong" answer to me. This is more of like, "your lives will be complicated and destroyed with polygamy."

The man is gone from his first wife's life for 3 weeks at a time.. Banging the second wife. Neglecting his first wife's children. Going out with his buddies, neglecting both wives looking for a potential 3rd wife.

Do these people not critically think? Do they know how many emotional problems arise?

"But Allah is all-forgiving, all-wise.. He loves that you go out and bang as many chicks as possible. And Allah is severe in Punishment."

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #649 - December 03, 2015, 11:15 PM

And if it's practiced properly, what obligations does the husband even have? He has to provide for both wives and treat them equally. So if he provides them with the bare minimum and spends an hour with each of them every day he is good to go. What a beautiful Sunnah, Masha'Allah!
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Reply #650 - December 04, 2015, 01:38 AM

Quote from: ExMuslimVlogGuy on December 03, 2015, 09:53 PM
They are all, not unhappy, but not happy either. They all say something is missing. The magic of the kind of love only Allah can grant. The kind of love that is completely trusting, mutual, open, complete - they don't have it. And they are acutely aware of this. And the more his wives try to hide their sadness from him, the more he is aware of it. And they never ever blame him.

And my brother is hurting so so much, Because he loves his wives so much. And he will never be able to be a complete husband to either of them. He will never stop hurting them. Even in the small things like having to leave even if a wife has a fever, or saying "Do you remember when we..." only to realize that the memory was shared with the other wife, or missing out on a school parents' day because of the polygamy schedule. And so on.

At least one member is telling the truth about his brother's polygamous marriage. I would have exactly predicted that it would be like that. I come from the Salafi background where many practice this. From the street convert salafis too. And it doesn't seem like they're unhappy, nor happy. Thus it ultimately leaves them unhappy.

Too many stories where I heard "I was his first wife, and he left me for his second wife. He never calls me anymore. He just picked up and left. No child support for my children and I'm pregnant again."

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
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Reply #651 - December 04, 2015, 02:37 AM

Quote from: happymurtad on December 03, 2015, 04:50 PM
Madinah is an extremely conservative city. As Islam goes, it probably is the most devout city on the planet. But it’s still just a city. The same crap that goes on in cities everywhere goes on there. I had a Saudi cop, who was giving me a ride once, tell me, “if you knew what went on inside of this haram, you wouldn’t think it was holy.” Apparently, hiding right in the throng of worshipers is the perfect place for things like drug deals, pimp appointments, bribe payments, etc.

Quote
And he will never be able to be a complete husband to either of them.

Is that so hard to understand? I mean really, you have both women giving their all 100% to you, and you're only able, at best to give 50% to each of them.

How is that fair?

At the end they agree that polygamy shouldn't be practiced in the west... not in pakistan either, and maybe never ever.

Geez these people really look at the "prophet's era" through rose-tinted glass... He was unfair, he threatened/spiritually blackmailed his wives, let his wives starve, etc. From the very beginning, there was no fairness where this one-sided arrangement would work for women.
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Reply #652 - December 04, 2015, 02:54 AM

Helaine,

One time I had a situation where a Muslim woman told me that her husband beat her in a polygamous marriage. (I used to counsel some muslims and I would give the khutbah in some communities.)

This was my first case, so I called up a Muslim friend. I asked him what Quran and hadith I could use to justify him not beating her. My Muslim friend said, "Wait a minute.. She's in a polygamous marriage? Well her husband might have a right.. I'm not sure. There was this one hadeeth I came across where the Prophet pointed to a whip whenever one of his wives misbehaved. And this is how he kept his polygamous marriages in check."

This sounded so absurd to me back then and it sounds absurd to me now. I laughed out loud over the phone and asked him "what was the point of pointing to the whip?" He told me, "Because sometimes he might use it to keep them in check. But I'm not sure, I'm going to have to find the hadeeth"

I never found this hadeeth, but just the mere fact that we would even TALK about this was just insane.

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
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Reply #653 - December 04, 2015, 06:40 AM

Quote from: Helaine on December 04, 2015, 02:37 AM

Is that so hard to understand? I mean really, you have both women giving their all 100% to you, and you're only able, at best to give 50% to each of them.

I had a Jewish guy who wanted me to be his second wife because his first wife couldn't have any more kids. I talked to his first wife and she said he wasn't paying the bills for her and her children. I asked him how he planned on supporting a second wife and kids, he said "I'll make the first wife get a job."

Quote from: Helaine on December 04, 2015, 02:37 AM
Geez these people really look at the "prophet's era" through rose-tinted glass... He was unfair, he threatened/spiritually blackmailed his wives, let his wives starve, etc. From the very beginning, there was no fairness where this one-sided arrangement would work for women.

Here's a thought experiment to demonstrate why this happens:

Let's say you're a security guard on the job. You are holding a taser. You see two men running towards you. The man closest to you is clearly trying to evade the person pursuing him, who is firing a gun at him. Which of the men do you fire the taser at (let's assume you're a good shot and both men are in range), the man who is clearly running for his life, or the man who is shooting at him? Now suppose that the man with the gun is a uniformed police officer.

Nothing changed between the two scenarios besides the clothing the person with the gun was wearing, and yet it completely reverses your actions, because you instinctively trust that the police officer, an authority figure, is shooting because it is necessary. If you apply a moment's thought to this, you realize it is not always the case and you adjust your answer, but your instinct tells you to trust the authority figure.

This problem doesn't necessarily mean they are bad people. Instead, it's a problem with how our brains are wired--we are wired to believe that our parents (and by extension, other authority figures) know what's best even if we don't understand why they're right. This makes sense--we don't have the survival skills other animals do when they're born. A newborn human can't find food, run from predators, or otherwise care for itself. So we had to take a shortcut and trust someone else to do the learning for us.

Here's a link to my whole long essay on it: http://pathtokolinahr.blogspot.com/2015/01/moral-people-defending-immoral-things.html

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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Reply #654 - December 04, 2015, 06:47 AM

Pointing at the whip to keep them in check... geez women are humans not livestock

Seriously though, when I asked, most muslim women don't want polygamy, and they justify it by saying "Men are not prophet, so they will never be as fair as the prophet. Mo can be polygamous because he's a prophet."

Really really... have you looked at the hadiths again... Mo wasn't good to his wives. In modern world, it's called emotional/spiritual blackmail. You don't want that!

This religion
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Reply #655 - December 04, 2015, 07:12 AM

Quote from: gal_from_usa on December 04, 2015, 06:40 AM
I had a Jewish guy who wanted me to be his second wife because his first wife couldn't have any more kids. I talked to his first wife and she said he wasn't paying the bills for her and her children. I asked him how he planned on supporting a second wife and kids, he said "I'll make the first wife get a job."

You dodged that ~~bullet~~ nuclear bomb, must've felt great

I'm wondering what options do these women have, trapped in such a pitiful marriage

Divorce is bad, no divorce is also bad... Hahaha... Such a grim reality.

I have heard of that thought experiment before, it must be spread further so people could clearly see that immoral behaviours done by authority doesn't make it moral
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Reply #656 - December 04, 2015, 10:02 AM

This is so incredibly disturbing.

So, if a Hadith said to keep your wife chained in a basement and there was a man actually doing that, these people would say he was justified?

I haven't seen the Hadith about pointing at the whip but maybe he was referring to the one which told men to hang a whip where their family members can see it. I was told as a kid that this was to make children behave but it might have been meant for wives and slaves as well

Polygamy is fucked up no matter which way it is dressed up. I know a number of polygamous families and not one of them is happy. The only times I hear about it working out oh so well is when I hear fictional stories told by imams about the two co-wives (weird term) who are best friends and go shopping together, babysit each other's children etc.
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Reply #657 - December 04, 2015, 12:46 PM

Didn't me or you post the whip hadith in the misogyny thread? I remember mentioning it.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #658 - December 04, 2015, 02:21 PM

Yup, you mentioned it then I posted it. Not sure if it was that same thread or a different one though.
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Reply #659 - December 04, 2015, 03:09 PM

Quote from: AGirlWithDoubts on December 04, 2015, 10:02 AM
This is so incredibly disturbing.

So, if a Hadith said to keep your wife chained in a basement and there was a man actually doing that, these people would say he was justified?

Agreed, this is kinda... I mean just because Mo did it that means it's OK to do it? Like wow........... NO.

Quote from: AGirlWithDoubts on December 04, 2015, 10:02 AM
Polygamy is fucked up no matter which way it is dressed up. I know a number of polygamous families and not one of them is happy. The only times I hear about it working out oh so well is when I hear fictional stories told by imams about the two co-wives (weird term) who are best friends and go shopping together, babysit each other's children etc.

You nailed it. A lot of these "If done properly polygamy is great for women" stories are basically fictional. Not even Mo's marriage was good, and he was THE prophet. Even his wives blatantly despised his decisions, until he went and blackmailed them to shut up.

It just doesn't work. Especially with traditional family where one wife has like 5 kids, 2 wives is 10 kids.... How is that not chaotic at all, how do you even find time to manage that kind of household
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