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Theme Changer

 Topic: Can we make a Change?

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  • Can we make a Change?
     OP - August 07, 2013, 02:42 PM
    um, I dont know why but i feel like everyone should get out of the darkness. Im an atheist and I dont want to ruin my life because of stupid belief that i were told when i was young.
    I feel like we can make a change, a small revolution (i know im too enthusiastic by the idea )
    I have made a fake account on fb and i have sent my muslim brainwashed cousin some questions about islam, at first she didnt reply but now she asked if i were muslim, well i cant say a lie even on a fake fb account but im trying to change her mind, do you think this idea will succeed?
    Are you doing something like this? 
    Before we were ex-muslim, we were muslim (it's obvious XD) but if we changed our mind gradually about these things why cant we change the lives of the other people? Maybe it's the environment, the education?
     Huh?   

    (sorry my bad english)

  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #1 - August 07, 2013, 03:08 PM
    can we make a change? yes. albeit a small one
    what we wrote in this forum alone can encourage and inspire people.
    as for getting out of the darkness, i take it you mean going public with our disbelief, then my answer is no, i won't take unnecessary risk and endanger myself. i know that might cause a bigger effect than just writing on forum or FB  to challenge and question the faith, but doing that might cost me my life
    and i haven't proselytize against Islam on FB, but a fellow member suggest me to. and i happen to have a second FB account that i don't use, so i'm thinking of sowing some seed of doubts among the muslims.
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #2 - August 07, 2013, 03:40 PM
    You r right, i dnt want to go in public and say things against islam, but it is just to make a small change...reading things like " how would you like to kill the person that insulted mo" posted by my cousins on fb   saddens me a lot
    It is just a way to have a debate and open up their eyes...
    21st century is...
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #3 - August 07, 2013, 04:07 PM
    I think it is a very dangerous tactic - you will at some point most likely happen to disclose you know more about her than you should as the usual random sleazy Facebook stalker (*looks in mirror*) and you are questioning her (probably) fundamental belief system.

    I think you should look for better and less risky options where it is very unlikely you will be exposed as a full-blown murtad. Unless she jumps at it and say something like "I know. But I can't tell my family and friends that I don't believe this stuff!".

    How would things like (if it feels natural) saying "my impression of Mo is that he is WAY too bad-ass to be insulted by petty kuffar. And condemning other is against the deen. Always remember that Allah is all-knowning. They will have to answer to him. And Allah knows best." as your self?

    As I have never been religious (wasn't even baptised in the state church) I have no idea of the chance of this working out de-bigoting your friends and family.

    But be very, very careful! lipsrsealed

    And stop making excuses for your English or I will have to start excusing for my Italian and Urdu Tongue
    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #4 - August 07, 2013, 04:25 PM
    Quote from: INcePtion on August 07, 2013, 02:42 PM
    I feel like we can make a change, a small revolution (i know im too enthusiastic by the idea )
    I have made a fake account on fb and i have sent my muslim brainwashed cousin some questions about islam, at first she didnt reply but now she asked if i were muslim, well i cant say a lie even on a fake fb account but im trying to change her mind, do you think this idea will succeed?
    Are you doing something like this?  



    I agree with your idea. If ex-Muslims came out, I'm sure a revolution would occur in terms of encouraging critical thinking, scientific education, and inspiring people to leave Islam. As a closet ex-Muslim (atheist) hijabi who may appear to be a Muslim fundamentalist to others, I'm still very careful of publicly questioning Islam. There are certain subjects that I refuse to question publicly but I do question Muslims about issues of Islamism because Muslims openly have different opinions. In the past, I was debating a few members of my community and family about women in Islam and I was accused of atheism and blasphemy. There are some Muslims who do believe that I'm an atheist or an 'Islamaphob' because I made a risky statement about Aisha and Muhammad. To be honest, I was aware of what I was saying but I ignored those thoughts which was why I made a mistake. Instead, I now anonymously question Muslims without restraint. I have so much respect for ex-Muslims who are public about their disbelief of Islam. In spite how most are endangered, it encourages me to one day go public as an ex-Muslim and stand up for ex-Muslims, as well as fight against the injustices of Islam (and other religions as well). We can't always be anonymous. Religion is not beautiful, nor necessary and I'm willing to risk my life for freedom. Just not now lol.  






    turnipovich
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #5 - August 07, 2013, 05:14 PM
    I think when the time is right, but right now, it's still not safe in a lot of places. The most you guys can do is write books, literature, debates, blogs and youtube videos etc. And partake in the same things that made you apostatize, and hope that more people will follow suit. Then when there is a sizeable presence, then it'll be a snowball effect. Take advantage of the internet and how easy it is to self-publish and share information.

     Religions/ Beliefs have risen and fallen throughout history so never say never.
    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #6 - August 07, 2013, 06:30 PM
    I'm with Cruchy on this one, to dangerous/stakes to high for many of us at the moment. Looks to me like a numbers game and unfortunately we just don't have enough numbers at this point in time. Doesn't mean I don't hate it, had to lie to my inlaws about my fasting, that sucks. Would really much prefer to say, I don't really believe in this stuff so I just don't bother with it. Probable outcome wife runs away and I never see kids again, like I said stakes to high.
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #7 - August 08, 2013, 12:24 PM
    Quote from: INcePtion on August 07, 2013, 03:40 PM
    .reading things like " how would you like to kill the person that insulted mo" posted by my cousins on fb   saddens me a lot


    remember Boston Bombing? i told my friend (Muslim ofc) about the news, including the number of the casualties (3 died at that moment) his reply?? "only 3?" (his intonation suggest he hopes for more casualties)
    i can't believe that he had such views about civilian non-muslims

    Quote from: Nikolaj on August 07, 2013, 04:07 PM
    I think you should look for better and less risky options where it is very unlikely you will be exposed as a full-blown murtad.

    i'll be careful i promise, and i don't really bash Islam like insulting and that kind of stuff, i mostly try to make them think rationally and provide references from Islamic sources. mostly when i was in 9gag religious post (got 1 death threat on my FB inbox from a lil brat, i blocked him just to be safe)

    i agree with Mia, things where muslims themselves have different opinion publicly, are good to discuss

    i also agree with Crunchy Cds (btw i like SAO too, well i'm an otaku after all Tongue)

    recently my friend, a Finnish atheist girl, very vocal against religion, sent me this article to her ex-muslim friends, to see what are our thoughts about it
    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/08/04/world/arab-atheists-leave-shadows/#.UgOLxZKl7iU

    my reply:
    "well i don't know how many of us (ex-muslims, rather than atheist) are there exactly because as you know it, ex-muslims tend to hide their views in fear of repercussion. internet access obviously plays a vital role here, because in Islamic country (or Muslim majority country) books about criticism of Islam is not available to the public. i'm sure there are more ex-muslims now than ever before in this world, though we won't get the exact numbers. and talking about growing numbers, i especially worried about people coming to Islam, though recently i heard there was a study about this that says 75% of new converts left Islam in few years

    coming back to the topic, these Arab atheists will definitely encourage the like-minded people and inspire more people to question their faith, it's not an easy thing to do, but if they are honest they will do that. in one of the video from CEMB (Councils of Ex-Musilim of Britain) i remember the line "if your religion is true, then you have nothing to fear" (regarding to questioning the faith) for now i think it's best to keep a low profile and maintain anonymity. once the ex-muslims numbers are growing significantly, that's probably where we're gonna see some changes in the Middle East, together they will have more power and also attention from the rest of the world"
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #8 - August 08, 2013, 12:33 PM
    Quote from: Crunchy Cds on August 07, 2013, 05:14 PM
    Religions/ Beliefs have risen and fallen throughout history so never say never.

    yeah, you 're right but religions and beliefs dont fall automatically if people are not encouraged to question their own faith    and proceed...
    I think the reason why muslim people dont want  to listen to different ideas is bcz they have never been exposed to western ideas and culture.
    In fact my cousins are in the same situation and education is the biggest problem, living in a muslim country and try to question "the truth" is quiet impossible.
    When i was 9 and for family problems i had to stay in pakistan, i went to school there for one year, i was too young at that time to notice the different education, but coming back to italy , i noticed how all was different. The education is all about "islam is the best, muslims are the best and this and that"  , so try to make  a change is quiet impossible. They dnt even study about history in an objective way, its like there is quran in every subject.
    To make a change there should be a proper education...


    see how im confused XD

    @nikolaj   ahahah now i wont excuse anymore   grin12

     thnkyu for your replies

    Hope is there and small changes leads to revolution...
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #9 - August 08, 2013, 12:42 PM
    Internet tends to make a difference.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #10 - August 08, 2013, 12:43 PM
    I have to say, I am way too burned out to try anymore.

    At first, as a fresh ex muslim 9 years ago, I had so much to say, I thought for sure just by the strength of all of the truth I felt I had finally found, I could convince my family..as in siblings, that they should become ex muslims too.

    Them and many others suffered through my constant Jehovah's witness routine. 

    It didn't work.  Some people are just too emotionally attached to Islam, and my siblings are.  If not to Islam, then too emotionally attached to my parents, and my extended family.

    I know they see my point, but they actually shoot me down and don't want to talk about it.

    I just don't care much anymore.  Not to convince them, and not to convince anyone else.

    I didn't become an ex muslim because someone attacked my beliefs, I became an ex muslim through a process of personal self growth that led me to seek out answers to questions I had never sought out before.  i was ready for the answers. 

    I doubt I would have been ready before.  And so I believe, when they are ready, they will eventually seek out the truth themselves.

    I spent years and years and years debating with muslims online, and trying to change the views of my siblings, and some of the muslims online eventually became ex muslims, but it wasn't a process of people going to their fb to challenge their views, it was part of a process in which those muslims online went looking, and ended up on this forum or on another forum, either way, ready to defend something that was slightly shaky for them already, or looking for answers.

    To go to people on their FB, well we might as well be doing dawah, or be Jehovahs witnesses, intruding, uninvited, and going for people who need to be ready off their own backs.

    At least that is my opinion.  Smiley
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #11 - August 08, 2013, 12:49 PM
    Quote from: hikaru.13 on August 08, 2013, 12:24 PM
    my reply:
    "well i don't know how many of us (ex-muslims, rather than atheist) are there exactly because as you know it, ex-muslims tend to hide their views in fear of repercussion. internet access obviously plays a vital role here, because in Islamic country (or Muslim majority country) books about criticism of Islam is not available to the public. i'm sure there are more ex-muslims now than ever before in this world, though we won't get the exact numbers. and talking about growing numbers, i especially worried about people coming to Islam, though recently i heard there was a study about this that says 75% of new converts left Islam in few years

    coming back to the topic, these Arab atheists will definitely encourage the like-minded people and inspire more people to question their faith, it's not an easy thing to do, but if they are honest they will do that. in one of the video from CEMB (Councils of Ex-Musilim of Britain) i remember the line "if your religion is true, then you have nothing to fear" (regarding to questioning the faith) for now i think it's best to keep a low profile and maintain anonymity. once the ex-muslims numbers are growing significantly, that's probably where we're gonna see some changes in the Middle East, together they will have more power and also attention from the rest of the world"



    I agree with you and yeah i feel sorry about your muslim friend, and it is true that in muslim countries books about criticism of islam arent available.
    Lol, once i read on a  urdu-english book a sentence that was translated in english " muslims tell the truth"
    I was like "wtf?Huh?" XD   is it a physical law?    Cheesy

    It's true that muslim living in western countires are leaving islam bcz of their education.
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on August 08, 2013, 12:42 PM
    Internet tends to make a difference.

    Yeah i agree
     i think with internet we can do something to help those (anonymously) people, maybe later something more
    And this forum is a big hope for every1   Afro
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #12 - August 08, 2013, 01:13 PM

    @berberella   i havent tried yet with my parents debating, it would be like"my last day of my life" XD
    And i know that my parents wont change their ideas , not bcz they dnt want to think rationally (i know they arent stupid), but the main cause is the social pressure...
    They disagree with some beliefs but they keep going on like they dont care
    But i still want to try

    P.s. i read about ur story and i feel very sad about the experiences that u have been through :(
    You r a very coragious person    far away hug
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #13 - August 08, 2013, 01:18 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on August 08, 2013, 12:43 PM
    I didn't become an ex muslim because someone attacked my beliefs, I became an ex muslim through a process of personal self growth that led me to seek out answers to questions I had never sought out before.  i was ready for the answers. 

    i hate to admit it but it was pretty much the same for me, though non religious people's criticism did play a role

    Quote from: BerberElla on August 08, 2013, 12:43 PM
    To go to people on their FB, well we might as well be doing dawah, or be Jehovahs witnesses, intruding, uninvited, and going for people who need to be ready off their own backs.

    wait, i don't go to people timeline arguing about Islam on their wall or inbox, it's on atheist pages and groups. so they went there out of their own free will.

    hopefully there are people who already had doubts about Islam
    i'm too lazy to edit and reupload the image, so just replace 'madness" with "doubt"

  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #14 - August 08, 2013, 01:23 PM
    In my area most either don't have a religion or don't believe in god. The majority don't believe in god. Yay for my area of England!
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #15 - August 08, 2013, 03:43 PM
    ahahaah i want to come there  grin12
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #16 - August 08, 2013, 03:53 PM
    In Canada, we don't talk much about religion, especially about Islam. But among Canadians, especially the youth, the majority of them are out and proud atheists/agnostics. Religion is dying which is a good thing. But what angers me about my country is that we are so polite about certain religions. We are terrified of being 'Islamophobes' so we ignore the female genital mutilation or any forms of abuse because it's part of the religion. I was abused as a child and I was once hospitalized but Children Aid Society (a child protective service) never did shit because they never wanted to offend and anger the Muslims of my community :/ Recently, there was a girl who was circumcised in my city by some visitor from Morocco. Nothing was done, she still lives with her family. Somehow, children of Muslims can't be protected by our laws.
    turnipovich
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #17 - August 08, 2013, 04:10 PM
    @mia   i totally agree with you, it seems like FREEDOM OF FAITH extends only for the muslim. if someone try to express his ideas or just want to discuss about islam, it is called "islamophobia" , muslim pretend freedom when they want to mantain their stupid beliefs that are against the freedom of their children  -.-"
    The whole thing sucks!!  finmad
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #18 - August 08, 2013, 04:38 PM
    Quote from: INcePtion on August 08, 2013, 03:43 PM
    ahahaah i want to come there  grin12


    Who knows, maybe we'll become close friends and meet up one day. Which is cool, I live between Nottingham and Sherwood Forest. Robin Hood!
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #19 - August 08, 2013, 04:40 PM
    Quote from: Mia on August 08, 2013, 03:53 PM
    In Canada, we don't talk much about religion, especially about Islam. But among Canadians, especially the youth, the majority of them are out and proud atheists/agnostics. Religion is dying which is a good thing. But what angers me about my country is that we are so polite about certain religions. We are terrified of being 'Islamophobes' so we ignore the female genital mutilation or any forms of abuse because it's part of the religion. I was abused as a child and I was once hospitalized but Children Aid Society (a child protective service) never did shit because they never wanted to offend and anger the Muslims of my community :/ Recently, there was a girl who was circumcised in my city by some visitor from Morocco. Nothing was done, she still lives with her family. Somehow, children of Muslims can't be protected by our laws.


    You would not believe how similar that is to Europe. The stories I could tell you...though fortunately we have taken a strong position against FGM.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #20 - August 08, 2013, 04:41 PM
    Quote from: INcePtion on August 08, 2013, 04:10 PM
    @mia   i totally agree with you, it seems like FREEDOM OF FAITH extends only for the muslim. if someone try to express his ideas or just want to discuss about islam, it is called "islamophobia" , muslim pretend freedom when they want to mantain their stupid beliefs that are against the freedom of their children  -.-"
    The whole thing sucks!!  finmad



    I can understand the fear and the consequences of speaking against Islam but this fear is hurting others. Children, women and men are not being protected which is why I'm desperate of coming out of the closet and fighting against these injustices. It isn't fair, especially when this is occurring in the west. Ex-muslims or Muslims who are experiencing abuse in the west should be frightened because most of the time, they're not protected by our laws. It's something that I've experienced and it's one of the reasons why I'm terrified of leaving my home. I honestly hate the term, "Islamophobia." I understand that after 9/11, Muslims experience hate crimes. Even though I'm a closet ex-Muslim atheist, I wear a hijab and I've been physically attacked at school and in my area. There are times when I'm scared to go out because I have to dodge a few people. I don't encourage abuse but questioning Islam is significant. Islam is not a race, it’s a religion and it should be questioned like any other religion.
    turnipovich
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #21 - August 08, 2013, 04:42 PM
    Actually, question. Have you considered going to the press? If people don't speak up, nothing will chance. Being from an Islamic background in Canada will help.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #22 - August 08, 2013, 04:42 PM
    Make that question to both of you.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #23 - August 08, 2013, 04:44 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on August 08, 2013, 04:40 PM
    You would not believe how similar that is to Europe. The stories I could tell you...though fortunately we have taken a strong position against FGM.


    That's true. I hear a bunch of stories about the female genital mutilations and the ignored abuses in Europe, particularly Britain. It's sad :/
    turnipovich
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #24 - August 08, 2013, 04:45 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on August 08, 2013, 04:42 PM
    Actually, question. Have you considered going to the press? If people don't speak up, nothing will chance. Being from an Islamic background in Canada will help.


    I would love to but it's risky for me because of my community Cry I may think of something and I agree with your point
    turnipovich
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #25 - August 08, 2013, 04:57 PM
    It's not just that. There's grooming gangs raping children and forcing them into sexual slavery, the words "Kuffar bitch" and "Kuffar whores" were used. Social services and the police for a while didn't investigate for fear of being labelled racist according to some news outlets. There was also a few years back a group of muslim women who wanted to go round school talking about the normality of domestic abuse in muslim families and in this country there are sever laws against that and they can get protection. Schools didn't take them up of it because they were targeting other muslims. Which is racist.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #26 - August 08, 2013, 05:22 PM
    Mia, I'm glad you've found this forum.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #27 - August 08, 2013, 05:37 PM
    Ditto. And another question, going back to the going to the press thing. can they not change your name or just have you listed as anonymous for your protection?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #28 - August 08, 2013, 05:46 PM
    Mia, Canada may be an interesting place for seriously attacking abuse because of Quebec.  France does take this seriously, it should not be difficult to get French Canadians to act similarly and them make this national policy.
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Can we make a Change?
     Reply #29 - August 08, 2013, 11:56 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on August 08, 2013, 04:40 PM
    You would not believe how similar that is to Europe. The stories I could tell you...though fortunately we have taken a strong position against FGM.


    I'm looking forward to the day when we also take a strong position against circumcision (also mutilation).
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