Which part of Islam's history did not sit right with you

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Which part of Islam's history did not sit right with you
OP - August 10, 2013, 02:17 PM

I know there are many topics talking about the reasons for apostasy, but this is a question pretty much nit-picking at specifics.
But what part of Islam's history were you taught that did not sit right with you? If you could remember any.

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Which part of Islam's history did not sit right with you
Reply #1 - August 10, 2013, 02:51 PM

The order for Muslims to kill every adult Jewish person, and to check every Jewish kid for pubic hair and killing the ones that did. Seriously, even as a kid, I couldn't stomach that story.

Another is just a hadith, but what the hell is with Muhammed ordering the breastfeeding of a 9 year old?
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Reply #2 - August 10, 2013, 03:47 PM

WORSHIP

i just can't understand why an almighty god who has no need for anything, especially worship, would create something with the sole purpose of worshiping him while his previous creation already doing that especially the angels, where some of them were created literally doing nothing else but worshiping (prostrating, bowing etc) him all the time every single day of their life, forever
nevertheless, he insisted that his creation, whom he has bestowed free will, to worship him or else (HELLFIRE). i mean what's the point of free will if we have no choice?
i tried many times understanding this but i always failed, i even try to imagine what it's like to create something similar as god creating mankind.
imagine if there was a scientist, let's say a programmer that managed to create an AI (something i think is close enough to the concept of soul) and then he put that AI into a cyborg body and ask the AI to worship him, instead of doing something else that can benefit mankind in any way. and other than the ridiculous task he has given that AI, he also added some bugs (nafs) so he can blame the AI for that if it ever occur. what do you think about such man? what do you think his colleague would think of him?

the second is connected to Worship, it's the "life is a test" concept
i don't get it, why do god have to test us, what's the point for him to do such thing? to decide who gets to heaven and who gets to hell? well that's for us. what does he get from it? nothing
what's the point of torturing us in hell for eternity? muslims love to compare hell with prison, well i say FUCK YOU!!
in what way does hell comparable with prison? the purpose of the 2 of them is completely different
hell serves as place for punishment only and an unfair one at that. i mean where is the need to torture someone for eternity? absolutely pointless.
prison on the other hand is quite different, some prisons are made to punish people for what they did by locking them up (not torturing them like god would) and maybe have them work their asses off. and no matter how long their sentences are, it's nothing compared to eternity
other prisons serve as correction facility to make people realize their mistakes and to return them as a good members of society.

and why god is so butthurt if we don't believe and worship him? he's the one who kicked us out of heaven and hide himself from us on the 1st place
and correct me if get this wrong, Adam was kicked out of heaven, for failing the test (eating the fruit of forbidden tree).
something doesn't add up here
1. why the hell does he have to put such thing in heaven? wasn't all things are halal in heaven? will that tree still be there when people gets to heaven? and will god do the same thing he did to Adam if people ever eat it?
2. how the hell did satan tempted Eve in heaven when god already kicked him out of it? what's the point of kicking him out if he can still tempt Adam and Eve?
3. were Adam and Eve ready for that test? did god teach them about right and wrong? about logic? about morality? all he ever taught Adam was names of things, which a simple book can do, there's no need for a god. and i don't remember god taught Eve anything at all. fucking sexist!!

sorry for the wall of text
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Which part of Islam's history did not sit right with you
Reply #3 - August 10, 2013, 10:15 PM

Islam is a peaceful religion and if you disagree I will kill you. Always puzzled me, that.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Which part of Islam's history did not sit right with you
Reply #4 - August 11, 2013, 03:12 AM

"Islam is a peaceful religion and if you disagree I will kill you. Always puzzled me, that."

That's because what you just wrote is caricature.

Here is actual Islam:

Al-Baqarah, verse 256: Let there be no compulsion in religion.

Islam = freedom to choose to believe or disbelieve. Worship Allah or worship Lucifer or worship Sex or worship nothing. Your choice. Your life.

Let's try to elevate the discussion away from stereotypes and caricatures.
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Reply #5 - August 11, 2013, 03:33 AM

The problem is most scholars agree that where you find contradictions, the latter cancels out the former. Sadly, what you cited is the former and so invalid according to said scholars. Not saying you believe that, but many listen to them.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Which part of Islam's history did not sit right with you
Reply #6 - August 11, 2013, 04:39 AM

Quote from: Seeker on August 11, 2013, 03:12 AM
"Islam is a peaceful religion and if you disagree I will kill you. Always puzzled me, that."

That's because what you just wrote is caricature.

Here is actual Islam:

Al-Baqarah, verse 256: Let there be no compulsion in religion.

Islam = freedom to choose to believe or disbelieve. Worship Allah or worship Lucifer or worship Sex or worship nothing. Your choice. Your life.

Let's try to elevate the discussion away from stereotypes and caricatures.

Tell me, Seeker, can you share with us what Al-Wahidi writes about this verse in Asbab al-Nuzul?

FreeThought Wiki is looking for translators!

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Reply #7 - August 11, 2013, 04:43 AM

Btw, this is a topic about the history of Islam.

Quote from: Seeker on August 11, 2013, 03:12 AM
Here is actual Islam:

Like any reasonable Muslim, I tried to convince myself of that, but seeing how overwhelming the verses, hadiths and the opinions of scholars are about the treatment of unbelievers, I had to realize at some point that the general spirit of Islam is absolutely not about respecting an unbeliever's right to disbelieve.
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Which part of Islam's history did not sit right with you
Reply #8 - August 11, 2013, 04:51 AM

Early things i had problems with before I researched the subjects
1. predestination
reading 2:6-7 and 2:15 really didn't sit easy with me. Basically god sends people to hell because he puts a cover over their hearts. This made almost no sense to me.
2. Dhul al quranayn
the thing is that members of my family accepted him to be alexander the great. The only problem is that he should be monotheist if the qu'ran is accurate but we actually know he was a polytheist.
later life
1. Ayat ar rajm
The Qu'ran was perfect but members of the Sahaba attested that the verse is in the qu'ran and it is in sura Ahzab.
2. torture of kinana at khaybar and marriage of Saffiya
This just seemed senseless to do it. Why would the prophet of the merciful would go and torture a man brutally. To add insult to injury he would go and take his wife right after.
3. Ayasha
I don't cae the reason having sex with a 9 year old is wrong. I won't say he is a pedophile for the same reason klingschor does. Child molestor is more accurate.

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Which part of Islam's history did not sit right with you
Reply #9 - August 11, 2013, 04:57 AM

Quote from: Seeker on August 11, 2013, 03:12 AM
"Islam is a peaceful religion and if you disagree I will kill you. Always puzzled me, that."

That's because what you just wrote is caricature.

Here is actual Islam:

Al-Baqarah, verse 256: Let there be no compulsion in religion.

Islam = freedom to choose to believe or disbelieve. Worship Allah or worship Lucifer or worship Sex or worship nothing. Your choice. Your life.

Let's try to elevate the discussion away from stereotypes and caricatures.

I'm guessing you're a muslim but here is a verse for you to contemplate. sura 2:6-7. This is a pretty horrid verse basically saying that god decides the fate of non believers by covering their hearts. Maybe you can make Dua to go and ask Allah to show something amazing to me so I'd believe in him.

Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky who created the universe, and the vast majority will believe you.

Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure.
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Which part of Islam's history did not sit right with you
Reply #10 - August 11, 2013, 05:00 AM

Or pray for forgiveness for committing the grave sin of allah deciding to cover my heart...wait, why am I guilty of what someone else did to me again?

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Which part of Islam's history did not sit right with you
Reply #11 - August 14, 2013, 06:41 PM

Well yeah I'm talking about it's history. not talking about practices or commands in Islam. Just events and tales that you heard about or during Muhammad's life that left you uncomfortable even though it should have been heralded as honorable. That was my question ^_^;

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Which part of Islam's history did not sit right with you
Reply #12 - August 14, 2013, 06:56 PM

Quote from: Seeker on August 11, 2013, 03:12 AM
"Islam is a peaceful religion and if you disagree I will kill you. Always puzzled me, that."

That's because what you just wrote is caricature.

Here is actual Islam:

Al-Baqarah, verse 256: Let there be no compulsion in religion.

Islam = freedom to choose to believe or disbelieve. Worship Allah or worship Lucifer or worship Sex or worship nothing. Your choice. Your life.

Sounds lovely, doesn't it? Until you read the next few lines and it goes on to say Islam is the One True Religion™ and people who reject it are the evil ones and they'll roast in Hell.

Not quite the verse of tolerance Muslims want to make it out to be.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Reply #13 - August 14, 2013, 08:20 PM

Quote from: Crunchy Cds on August 14, 2013, 06:41 PM
Well yeah I'm talking about it's history. not talking about practices or commands in Islam. Just events and tales that you heard about or during Muhammad's life that left you uncomfortable even though it should have been heralded as honorable. That was my question ^_^;

Honestly there's nothing I can really point to. The simple fact of the matter is there's nothing unique in islam's history that you couldn't find elsewhere. As bloody and ruthless as it at times was, so were other ideologies. The reverse is also true. The most concerning thing isn't the past but the present for me. Islam seems the one major thing not going with the times. If I ever wanted to go back in time to see the crusades or the inquisition, I don't need to. That exact mentality is going on right now. Hopefully it can break out of this Dark Age and regain it's enlightened period for the sake of those who follow it.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Re: Which part of Islam's history did not sit right with you
Reply #14 - August 17, 2013, 12:24 AM

Quote from: hikaru.13 on August 10, 2013, 03:47 PM
WORSHIP

i just can't understand why an almighty god who has no need for anything, especially worship, would create something with the sole purpose of worshiping him while his previous creation already doing that especially the angels, where some of them were created literally doing nothing else but worshiping (prostrating, bowing etc) him all the time every single day of their life, forever
nevertheless, he insisted that his creation, whom he has bestowed free will, to worship him or else (HELLFIRE). i mean what's the point of free will if we have no choice?
i tried many times understanding this but i always failed, i even try to imagine what it's like to create something similar as god creating mankind.
imagine if there was a scientist, let's say a programmer that managed to create an AI (something i think is close enough to the concept of soul) and then he put that AI into a cyborg body and ask the AI to worship him, instead of doing something else that can benefit mankind in any way. and other than the ridiculous task he has given that AI, he also added some bugs (nafs) so he can blame the AI for that if it ever occur. what do you think about such man? what do you think his colleague would think of him?

the second is connected to Worship, it's the "life is a test" concept
i don't get it, why do god have to test us, what's the point for him to do such thing? to decide who gets to heaven and who gets to hell? well that's for us. what does he get from it? nothing
what's the point of torturing us in hell for eternity? muslims love to compare hell with prison, well i say FUCK YOU!!
in what way does hell comparable with prison? the purpose of the 2 of them is completely different
hell serves as place for punishment only and an unfair one at that. i mean where is the need to torture someone for eternity? absolutely pointless.
prison on the other hand is quite different, some prisons are made to punish people for what they did by locking them up (not torturing them like god would) and maybe have them work their asses off. and no matter how long their sentences are, it's nothing compared to eternity
other prisons serve as correction facility to make people realize their mistakes and to return them as a good members of society.

and why god is so butthurt if we don't believe and worship him? he's the one who kicked us out of heaven and hide himself from us on the 1st place
and correct me if get this wrong, Adam was kicked out of heaven, for failing the test (eating the fruit of forbidden tree).
something doesn't add up here
1. why the hell does he have to put such thing in heaven? wasn't all things are halal in heaven? will that tree still be there when people gets to heaven? and will god do the same thing he did to Adam if people ever eat it?
2. how the hell did satan tempted Eve in heaven when god already kicked him out of it? what's the point of kicking him out if he can still tempt Adam and Eve?
3. were Adam and Eve ready for that test? did god teach them about right and wrong? about logic? about morality? all he ever taught Adam was names of things, which a simple book can do, there's no need for a god. and i don't remember god taught Eve anything at all. fucking sexist!!

sorry for the wall of text

You echoed all my thoughts 100%
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Reply #15 - September 05, 2013, 03:23 PM

Quote from: Seeker on August 11, 2013, 03:12 AM
"Islam is a peaceful religion and if you disagree I will kill you. Always puzzled me, that."

That's because what you just wrote is caricature.

Here is actual Islam:

Al-Baqarah, verse 256: Let there be no compulsion in religion.

Islam = freedom to choose to believe or disbelieve. Worship Allah or worship Lucifer or worship Sex or worship nothing. Your choice. Your life.

Let's try to elevate the discussion away from stereotypes and caricatures.

That is completely and utterly wrong. Please read the tafsirs and the context in which this verse was revealed in.
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Which part of Islam's history did not sit right with you
Reply #16 - September 05, 2013, 03:42 PM

Quote from: Ishina on August 14, 2013, 06:56 PM
Sounds lovely, doesn't it? Until you read the next few lines and it goes on to say Islam is the One True Religion™ and people who reject it are the evil ones and they'll roast in Hell.

Not quite the verse of tolerance Muslims want to make it out to be.

It’s even worse than that, in fact! The truth is that it was ‘revealed’ in the context of Jews (who had looked after muslim kids) trying to convert them away from Islam.

So the no compulsion actually means you can’t force a muslim to leave his/her religion, NOT that you can worship anyone you want!
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Reply #17 - September 05, 2013, 04:03 PM

^
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Reply #18 - September 05, 2013, 04:35 PM

Quote from: Kodanshi on September 05, 2013, 03:42 PM
It’s even worse than that, in fact! The truth is that it was ‘revealed’ in the context of Jews (who had looked after muslim kids) trying to convert them away from Islam.

So the no compulsion actually means you can’t force a muslim to leave his/her religion, NOT that you can worship anyone you want!

hello Kodanshi., the truth is
Quote
"THERE WAS NO REVELATION & NOTHING IS/WAS REVEALED TO ANY ONE AT ANY TIME IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.,"

that is the truth...lol.,

but..but Seeker says this

Quote
I think you're reading too much into what I wrote, and you're coming up with conclusions that I never implied let alone stated. I clearly wrote: "obviously this is a exaggerated hyperbolic example".

On another thread, i stated that I believe that morality comes from within, so we're not far apart. Where we differ is your rejection of religion and any role it might have in regulating social and moral conduct.

Also I've stated on numerous occasions that I have respect for all human beings regardless of their belief-systems or lack of belief-systems.

Relax, and let's have a virtual non-alcoholic drink to break the ice and minimize any tension arising from misunderstanding.

what kind of response would you guys give it to Seeker??

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Reply #19 - September 05, 2013, 05:05 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on September 05, 2013, 04:35 PM
hello Kodanshi., the truth is that is the truth...lol.,

"THERE WAS NO REVELATION & NOTHING IS/WAS REVEALED TO ANY ONE AT ANY TIME IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.,"

I am aware of that, hence why I said it in quotation marks .
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Reply #20 - September 05, 2013, 05:38 PM

Whether it's in a ancient religious text or a woman in the 21st Century who drowns her children and ends up in a mental hospital, I think of these "revelations" the same way. Exact same amount of validity.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #21 - September 05, 2013, 05:50 PM

Quote
Quote from: Kodanshi on September 05, 2013, 05:05 PM
I am aware of that, hence why I said it in quotation marks .

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 05, 2013, 05:38 PM
Whether it's in a ancient religious text or a woman in the 21st Century who drowns her children and ends up in a mental hospital, I think of these "revelations" the same way. Exact same amount of validity.

you two guys are trying to escape from my question. you are commenting on a silly point in that post, not real question., I am not going to leave you guys without answering it., the real question is

what kind of response would you guys give it to Seeker??

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Reply #22 - September 06, 2013, 02:15 PM

The same kind of response we made, yeezeevee. The point is he is using the verse to claim that everyone is free to preach and believe whatever the hell they want. When you look at the context of the verses, this doesn't hold fort.
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Reply #23 - September 06, 2013, 02:48 PM

The bit when it did not die out because of the mongol invasions?

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