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 Topic: Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles

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  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #60 - August 22, 2013, 12:20 PM
    Hamza's webinar on this topic tonight
    https://www4.gotomeeting.com/register/926101615

    "This is a university level webinar", so it might be too complex and sophisticated for you idiots.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #61 - August 22, 2013, 12:50 PM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on August 22, 2013, 12:20 PM
    Hamza's webinar on this topic tonight
    https://www4.gotomeeting.com/register/926101615

    "This is a university level webinar", so it might be too complex and sophisticated for you idiots.

     sorry .. I have done seen tons of webinars but  I am not going to give my personal info  to Idiots who are asking the info that you see below..

    Quote
    Thu, Aug 22, 2013 6:45 PM - 8:15 PM BST
    Show time in my
    time zone
       
    * First Name:
       * Last Name:
    * Email Address:
       * City:
    * Country:
       

    By clicking this button you submit your information to the Webinar organizer, who will use it to communicate with you regarding this event and their other services. View system requirements

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #62 - August 22, 2013, 12:51 PM
    * First Name:  jasghjdgashd
       * Last Name: asmdgjhasgdhas
    * Email Address: asdgashjgd@kasg.com
       * City: askdhkas kas
    * Country Zimbabwe
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #63 - August 22, 2013, 12:51 PM
    Quote
    In this webinar you will learn that science is not the only method to verify truth claims. By understanding problems in the philosophy of science attendees will appreciate the "limited" nature of the scientific method. This will provide the tools to understand "scientific miracles" of the Qur'an in the their correct context, and it will also bring to light the problematic approach of the science and Qur'an narrative. Attendees will understand that there are other epistemic routes (or ways to knowledge) that can verify truth claims, such as authentic and valid testimony. Additionally attendees will appreciate Islam's influence on science and its contribution. This webinar will provide the attendee with the right conceptual tools to reconcile between apparent contradictions between scientific conclusions and revealed truths, insha'Allah. This is a university level webinar.  


    *cracks fingers* I'll start.

    Number one. The philosophy of science. Science is not philosophy. It has nothing to do with philosophy. It either proves something wrong or tries to prove things right. An established scientific theory is taken s fact because it's established. Making the claim this is right and can never be disproved and you shouldn't try is the closest science has to the concept of blasphemy.

    Number two. This will provide the tools to understand "scientific miracles" of the Qur'an in the their correct context. That's not how science works, that's how faith works. You're starting by saying this is true and science just hasn't caught up. Stating something unproven as fact and even miracle is the most unscientific thing I can think of.

    Number three. Valid testimony as scientific evidence. He said she said is not evidence that is accepted by a scientist. Evidence is what is accepted.

    Number four. Additionally attendees will appreciate islam's influence on science and its contribution. This makes no sense. Islam isn't a person. Newton was a christian, and yet no one claims his work was christian science, he was a scientist who happened to be christian. Same as scientists of other faiths. What an individual achieves is down to the individual. Darwin changed the world more than any other scientist does not mean atheism is true just because the founder of evolution happened to be an atheist. Though there is some debate he was a christian. Again, doesn't validate christianity which is what muslims always seem to want for themselves.

    Number five. This webinar will provide the attendee with the right conceptual tools to reconcile between apparent contradictions between scientific conclusions and revealed truths. When it's been proven false it's not a revealed truth.

    Number six. This is a university level webinar. Superstitious nonsense is accepted as university standard now?

    Well, I'm done for the day. Anyone else fancy a go?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #64 - August 23, 2013, 07:23 PM
    Tzorzis will get tired one day and go like, Screw this, I am an Atheist.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #65 - August 23, 2013, 08:17 PM
    The philosophy of science bit is true and the idea of multiple ways of truth is true as well. It's a matter of weighing epistemology though. Atheists tend to discount "authentic" testimony from the Abaramic faiths because they tend to be written hundreds of years later by the people who have an interest in the narrative and without much confirmation from the outside sources. Likewise many theists confuse someone claiming to have heard someone who they think is a prophet with that described person as being a prophet (at least with their own religion). That's why Christians work so hard to show a historical Jesus because they think that proves there was a Christian Jesus (in a manner of speaking) preforming miracles and whatnot.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #66 - August 24, 2013, 01:56 AM
    You have a point but the way it's laid out in the webinar above is completely misleading. What they are doing is saying this is true and if reality doesn't agree reality must be changed to make it agree. Same old, same old.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #67 - August 24, 2013, 08:24 PM
    Quote from: deusvult on August 23, 2013, 08:17 PM
    The philosophy of science bit is true and the idea of multiple ways of truth is true as well. It's a matter of weighing epistemology though. Atheists tend to discount "authentic" testimony from the Abaramic faiths because they tend to be written hundreds of years later by the people who have an interest in the narrative and without much confirmation from the outside sources. Likewise many theists confuse someone claiming to have heard someone who they think is a prophet with that described person as being a prophet (at least with their own religion). That's why Christians work so hard to show a historical Jesus because they think that proves there was a Christian Jesus (in a manner of speaking) preforming miracles and whatnot.




    Hey, what you have mentioned is perfectly valid.

    I wish that someone would sit David Deutch author 'The Beginning of Infinity' (pinoeer of computational quantum mechanics - I know!) with Tzortzis. Science is the BEST way to extract whatever 'truths' are out there. As Deutch explains the idea of 'truth' as an absolute is considered redundant in academic circles viz-a-viz philosophy of ideas, epistemics, science. There are only claims and arguments/evidence that support said claims. He states that we should attempt to arrive at the best explanation for why x is x or how y is y or if a is in fact a and not b or c. The scientific method allows for us to best arrive at these best explanations based upon the available evidence. The purpose of argumentation then is to seek alternatives. The scientific method does not apply ust one method e.g. observation but a string of methods.

    Observation.
    Experimentation.
    Verifiability.
    Reliability.
    Peer Review.
    Falsification.
    Fallibalism (as a conceptual framework).

    Lawence Krauss and David Albert had a very heated (at times embaressingly childish debate) on the limits of philosophy. It was conceded that although science cannot explain everything it is the BEST method out there for explaining and understanding natural and human phenomena (yes, social sciences even got a leg up too! YAY!).

    What Tzortzis is saying is:

    1) There is no actual science in the Qur'an.

    2) But there is science in the Qur'an of a scientific nature but it can only be verified by manipulating the idiosyncracies of the Arabic language and basing it upon the most unreliable method out there i.e. verbal testimony and then superimposing this upon a 'correct context' which itse;f can never be verified using the best historical and anthropological methods at hand.

    Oh...and the influence of Islam on science. Sure, there is a correlation between SOME aspects of Islam and Scientific inventions and technological improvements. Then again human sacrifices was (in/directly) linked to the Mayan calender and the great lengths intelligent people went to make it as accurate as possible. Pagan myths in both Egypt and Greece influence science and philosophy. Not to mention the Vedic cultures giving rise to one of the most complex and sophisticated empires. Need I mention the Chinese? Or the African Kingdoms and their various tribe-based traditions? Christians, ew, Native Americans...hell, even the Aborignes made scientific/technological advancements based upon the necessity of their immediate environment and then some.

    My brothers and sisters in humanity, this is not a time to lament but to reoice. We have (almost) slain one dragon (science in the Qur'an) now we must slay its weaker twin.

    Keep your mind sharp and your tongue deadly...strike at will!

    Sorry Will.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #68 - August 25, 2013, 09:38 AM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on August 20, 2013, 06:13 AM
    most/all of the problems Hamza identifies with the psuedoscience approach are found in "embrology in the quran refuted."

    http://embryologyinthequran.blogspot.co.uk/

    Captain Disguise and co deserve credit for actually getting through to him.

    There is no way for example that Hamza would have heard of "the fallacy of the undistributed middle otherwise.


    Thanks.

    Hamza and I actually had some polite interactions on this topic over email about a month ago. He actually seemed sincere with what he is trying to do now and it is good to see an opponent also come to similar conclusions. He has also taken some of my suggestions into account. I am actually really impressed that he took such a step. Hopefully he continues to maintain his maturity and doesn't go back to the level of Naik or Yahya.

    I may upload a video on the topic soon!
    http://www.youtube.com/captaindisguise
    http://captaindisguise.blogspot.com/
    http://dawahganda.blogspot.com/
    https://twitter.com/CaptainDG64

    "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ~ Nietzsche
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #69 - August 25, 2013, 06:23 PM
    An end of an (i)era insha'allah.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwEvfeWtxWM&list=PLF80FCCC83BAB4B4A
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #70 - August 26, 2013, 07:20 AM
    I dont have sympathy.  This guy knows what he is doing.   Whats more important is that he is misleading a lot of people into joining Islam and keeping many who dont know any better trapped in it.

    You cannot put that much effort into twisting logic without knowing what your end goal is.   The only reason I think he did this is bc of the sustained internet pressure the rationaliser, captain disguise etc have put on him especially on twitter/facebook/youtube.

    If this had not been done this guy would be peddling the same stuff, he is only being "humble" or switching gears bc he has to not bc he wants to.
    Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #71 - August 26, 2013, 07:29 AM
    One of my favs was the embryology miracle in the quran he was always sprouting. "How could they have known 1400 years ago?!" Then finally having to accept the quran is wrong, but oh wait, the quran isn't wrong, only his interpretation. So one of the biggest things about the quran to convince him of the truth of islam was actually a misinterpretation on his part. Biggest load of bollocks I've heard in a while.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #72 - August 26, 2013, 11:36 AM
    Quote from: Xiis on August 26, 2013, 07:20 AM
    I dont have sympathy.  This guy knows what he is doing.   Whats more important is that he is misleading a lot of people into joining Islam and keeping many who dont know any better trapped in it.

    You cannot put that much effort into twisting logic without knowing what your end goal is.   The only reason I think he did this is bc of the sustained internet pressure the rationaliser, captain disguise etc have put on him especially on twitter/facebook/youtube.

    If this had not been done this guy would be peddling the same stuff, he is only being "humble" or switching gears bc he has to not bc he wants to.


    What she said.....................
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #73 - August 26, 2013, 12:18 PM
    Quote from: Xiis on August 26, 2013, 07:20 AM
    I dont have sympathy.  This guy knows what he is doing.   Whats more important is that  he is misleading a lot of people into joining Islam and keeping many who dont know any better trapped in it.

    You cannot put that much effort into twisting logic without knowing what your end goal is.   The only reason I think he did this is bc of the sustained internet pressure the rationaliser, captain disguise etc have put on him especially on twitter/facebook/youtube.

    well  that fool  is doing exactly the same as many western converts are doing since 1980 preaching their type of  Islam  to unsuspected folks such as   Hamza Yusuf aka Mark Hanson  of Zaytuna College in Berkeley, California.,   Ibrahim Hooper Aka Douglas Hooper - Islamic activist, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) or that Yusuf Estes former Christian Priest converted to Islam and became Muslim and Muslim Priest worked as  Muslim Chaplain for United States Bureau of Prisons.

    The difference between those guys and this Tortoise is., those guys stcik to religious theology/rituals of Islam. They don't go in to the crowd challenging Scientists and atheists about this allah thing or supreme deity thing.  Any way some one should tell  this tortilla fool forget  scientific miracles in Quran but read superstitious nonsense that is filled all over Quran. They should talk to him about Quranic verses such as

    Quote
    1). And hosts of the jinn and the men and the birds were gathered to him, and they were formed into groups.   ( Chapter #27, Verse #17)

    2).  One audacious among the jinn said: I will bring it to you before you rise up from your place; and most surely I am strong (and) trusty for it. (Chapter #27, Verse #39)

    3).  And We have appointed for them comrades so they have made fair-seeming to them what is before them and what is behind them, and the word proved true against them-- among the nations of the jinn and the men that have passed away before them-- that they shall surely be losers  (Chapter #41, Verse #25)

    4).  And when We turned towards you a party of the jinn who listened to the Quran; so when they came to it, they said: Be silent; then when it was finished, they turned back to their people warning (them) (Chapter #46, Verse #29)

    5). Say: It has been revealed to me that a party of the jinn listened, and they said: Surely we have heard a wonderful Quran, ( Chapter #72, Verse #1)

    6).  O assembly of jinn and men! did there not come to you apostles from among you, relating to you My communications and warning you of the meeting of this day of yours? They shall say: We bear witness against ourselves; and this world's life deceived them, and they shall bear witness against their own souls that they were unbelievers. (Chapter #6, Verse #130)


    Why dould allah god need to talk such superstitious nonsense as

    .......hosts of the jinn and the men and the birds were gathered to him....
    .....jinn listened, and they said: Surely we have heard a wonderful Quran...

    what is that Science of Jinns?  ....  worse is hadith....

     8. SATAN LIVING IN ONE'S NOSE

    Quote
    Abu Huraira reported: The Apostle of Allah said. When any one of you awakes up from sleep and performs ablution, he must clean his nose three times, for the devil spends the night in the interior of his nose.   Muslim vol. 1, no. 462 concerning Satan living in one's nose

    If we should take it literally, this is a reference to the fact that the nose and ears provide openings to the heart without barrier unlike the other sense organs and thus gateways for Satan. This is confirmed by other authentic narrations such as: "The devil circulates in human beings just like blood,". "One who yawns should close up his mouth lest the devil enters it,". "The devil cannot open something that has been closed," and similar orders to close doors at night and cover up edibles. And it is possible to take it metaphorically in the sense of accumulated dirt, dust, and mucus since it is established that devils privileges dirty places, dirty smells, etc. Hence the Sunna in wudu' is not only to snuff water up the nostrils (istinshaq), but to blow one's nose as well (istinthar) in order to expel impurities.


    Jinns living in people's nose .. ass.. ears... and what not bull shit..   BRUSH YOUR TEETH you idiots..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro3kxkc7nYo

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #74 - October 12, 2013, 01:49 AM
    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?379244-Are-Muslim-Apologetics-Conceding

    Quote
    Did any of you read this article and if so am i the only one who is left with a feeling of defeat after having read it? Does it seem like brother Hamza pretty much dropped all the Da'wah giving arguments we have been taught to use over the years and went with something totally different? Reading his essay really shook me especially because he seems to be conceding to all the islam attackers argumenting against us.

  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #75 - October 12, 2013, 10:49 AM
    I saw that Dr sloth, just shows their mentality, people who argue for the truth about so called miracles are "attacking" Islam. he feels defeated, complete us v them mentality, full of bias. 
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #76 - October 12, 2013, 11:13 AM
    Quote from: monstart on October 12, 2013, 10:49 AM
    .............. he feels defeated, complete us v them mentality, full of bias. .................

    Well next step for that tortoise is visiting a Psychiatrist to clean  his  Islamic OCD problem from his brain.. And in that respect, reading/writing in to CEMB could do world of good to him.
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #77 - October 12, 2013, 11:38 AM
    As the Sturmtrooper said, Yeez...
    Quote from: sturmgewehr on August 23, 2013, 07:23 PM
    Tzorzis will get tired one day and go like, Screw this, I am an Atheist.

  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #78 - October 12, 2013, 11:56 AM
    but not without losing his job/life
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #79 - October 12, 2013, 12:00 PM
    Like the many C of E vicars who don't really believe in God.

    Unlike them in that no-one gives a shit if a C of E vicar renounces God.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #80 - October 12, 2013, 03:43 PM
    Man, this seems to have hit home over there. Perhaps it'll get the apostasy ball rolling? parrot

    Quote from a member:

    Quote
    After reading the thread where Hamza himself participated in i think its safe to say that:

    1. I am ignorant 2. My iman is not even half as strong as i hoped for it to be, 3. May Allah forgive me for re-posting this wihtout researching the topic. The last thing i want is to be a factor of doubt in others. 4. I got a lot of iman boosting to do inshaAllah 5. Brother Hamza could have worded his essay just a tiny bit different than he did but i misunderstood him more than he deserved to be misunderstood. My bad, not his.

    May Allah bless you for your replies.


    Quote from a senior member.

    Quote
    Because he [Hamza] wants to be taken seriously academically, this embryology miracle etc is dead now. To be honest, if someone converted due to the miracle propaganda then I have no sympathy because they should have just done their research properly if they really cared about the truth, the people who I feel sorry for are the Muslims who donated money to IERA so Hamza to write those embryology papers, now he has taken it back, what a waste of money.


  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #81 - October 12, 2013, 03:54 PM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyfLTQFDQjE

    Quote
    Quote
    The Rationaliser b 6 Oct
    Imams willing to marry girls of 14 in the UK? http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/Society/article1323833.ece … Some people think it's okay at 9! *cough* @iERAuk *cough* @HATzortzis

     
    Hamza A. Tzortzis   @TheRationaliser:

     I'm against ALL child marriage. My point was to show it was NOT immoral/illegal at that TIME based on the principles.

     
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #82 - October 12, 2013, 05:24 PM
    Rationalizer and Hamza are so cute.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #83 - October 12, 2013, 08:23 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on October 12, 2013, 05:24 PM
    Rationalizer and Hamza are so cute.

    I don't think they're about to resolve the erotic tension and have sex anytime soon.
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #84 - October 12, 2013, 10:47 PM
    If Islam changes with time and the society it is within then its not a guide for humanity for all time nor is the Prophet an example for us for all time. The dismay from Muslims over these emotions of defeat probably stems from their own inability to form their own argument promote or defend Islam. Seems to me dawah tells Muslims what to say and think, not how to think. Im sure if I relied on copy/paste arguments I would have similar feelings. Then again I was taught how to think for myself and form my own arguments in Jr high. Copy/Pasted arguments would net me a one way ticket to be expelled from my university.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #85 - October 12, 2013, 10:56 PM
    Quote
    Then again I was taught how to think for myself and form my own arguments in Jr high.

     Afro
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #86 - October 13, 2013, 12:02 AM
    I had to take a shot at the over-reliance of of using someone's work without checking if the person is qualified to make such statements as a matter of fact. I tried to search for Tzortzis' credentials but I can not find anything. Not a university transcript, diploma or even a certificate of completion of a course. As far as I know this Tzortzis guy has none. From my perspective  I am led to believe most of his work is sophistry that appeals to those that already hold certain views rather than any sort of academic work. Amateur apologetic that fools the willing masses but will never stand up as creditable to someone that doesn't hold these views.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #87 - October 13, 2013, 12:07 AM
    He doesn't. He's even been found out stealing lines from William Lane Craig. No wonder Lawrence Krauss called him Lane's clone.

    Wasn't there also something about him cheating at university? Or am I remembering wrong?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #88 - October 13, 2013, 12:31 AM
    he studied psychology at the university of Westminster, but was thrown out for plagiarism and did not graduate. He claims that people were plagiarising him (he let them).
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #89 - October 13, 2013, 12:32 AM
    And now he's making a living from it. Stick with what you know I guess.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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