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Theme Changer

 Topic: Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles

 (Read 16294 times)
  • 12 3 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     OP - August 19, 2013, 07:34 PM

    his new essay:

    http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/does-the-quran-contain-scientific-miracles-a-new-approach/

    i have only skimmed it.
    I think he is saying: No it doesn't,  but science is rubbish anyway, and instead we (Muslims) should concentrate on the other stuff like the 'linguistic miracle', which is where Tortoise has carved out his little niche.

  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #1 - August 19, 2013, 08:26 PM

    A bit like that. He's given up on the scientific miracles claims and has gone full circle with "the Quran contains amazing spiritual truths" like the leech is like an embryo so we should be humble that our parents sacrificed + linguistic miracle +mythology of the unchanged Quran.


    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #2 - August 19, 2013, 08:30 PM

    Basically the classic da'wah. I bet this 'literary miracle' gets changed though. By excluding "spiritual truths" and eloquence from being considered I think he leaves the claim open to attack the same way scientific miracles were.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #3 - August 19, 2013, 08:38 PM

    I feel like it is mainly an advertisement for the Tzortzis linguistic miracle.
    He is basically dissing the competition - the scientific miracle dawah.
    He is hoping the monopolise the dawah market.

    I am halfway through debunking his linguistic miracle, which fails even more completely than the science stuff. All that will be left will be the miracle of the book that might not have changed, and the miracle of knowledge of  historical events that happened. These miracles never had much traction in the first place.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #4 - August 19, 2013, 09:10 PM

    Quote
    Nevertheless, I do believe that apostasy is not entirely an intellectual decision but rather a spiritual and psychological problem.


    Wow. What a shit head.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #5 - August 19, 2013, 10:07 PM

    I'm posting as I read through this article, but I find this to be a rather bold admission.
    Quote
    Regrettably, the scientific miracles narrative has become an intellectual embarrassment for Muslim apologists, including myself. A few years ago I took some activists to Ireland to engage with the audience and speakers at the World Atheist Convention. Throughout the convention we had a stall outside the venue and as a result positively engaged with hundreds of atheists, including the popular atheist academics Professor P. Z. Myers and Professor Richard Dawkins.  During our impromptu conversation with Professor Myers we ended up talking about God’s existence and the Divine nature of the Qur’ān. The topic of embryology came up, and Professor Myers being an expert in the field challenged our narrative. He claimed that the Qur’ān did not predate modern scientific conclusions in the field. As a result of posting the video[8] of the engagement on-line we faced a huge intellectual backlash. We received innumerable amounts of emails by Muslims and non-Muslims. The Muslims were confused and had doubts, and the non-Muslims were bemused with the whole approach. Consequently, I decided to compile and write an extensive piece on the Qur’ān and embryology, with the intention to respond to popular and academic contentions.[9] During the process of writing I relied on students and scholars of Islamic thought to verify references and to provide feedback in areas where I had to rely on secondary and tertiary sources. Unfortunately they were not thorough and they seemed to have also relied on trusting other Muslim apologists. When the paper was published it was placed under a microscope by atheist activists.[10] Although they misrepresented some of the points, they raised some significant contentions. I have since removed the paper from my website. In retrospect if this never happened, I probably wouldn’t be writing this essay now. It is all a learning curve and an important part of developing intellectual integrity.

    I often wonder what doubts must be eating away at the minds of these apologists, as I found myself in a very similar situation as I was losing my faith in what I thought was the absolute, divine truth. There comes a point when you realize, if you are honest, that it is simply an untenable presumption. Once you have built such a name for yourself as Tzotzis has, that can be a nearly impossible thing to admit publically. What is even more interesting and scary is the possibility that these dawah-gandists do not sincerely believe a word they are saying, but have come to the conclusion that, since it’s all bullshit anyway, they stand to lose nothing by giving it lip service whereas they stand to lose everything by publically apostatizing. (That was a very clumsy sentence, but I can’t be bothered to re-word it. You get my idea.)

    Addendum:
    As I read through this even more, it is almost as though he realizes and admits to just how dishonest an endeavor this entire process (i.e. proving the Qur’an to be miraculous) truly is. Look at this shit:
    Quote
    A New Approach
    So what now? How do we change the direction of the science in the Qur’ān tidal wave that has engulfed Muslim apologetics (more commonly known as daᶜwah in the Muslim community)? How do we transform the narrative? The simple answer is we need a new approach. This new approach is what Professor of Physics and Astronomy Nidhal Guessoum calls a “multiple, multi-level” approach.[52]
    The new approach is based on the following axioms and principles:
    1.   The Qur’ān allows multiple and multi-level meanings.
    2.   Our understanding of natural phenomena and science changes and improves with time.
    3.   The Qur’ān is not inaccurate or wrong.
    4.   In the case of any irreconcilable difference between a Qur’ānic assertion and a scientific one, the following must be done:
    •   Find meanings within the verse to correlate with the scientific conclusion.
    •   If no words can match the scientific conclusion then science is to be improved.
    •   Find a non-scientific meaning. The verse itself may be pertaining to non-physical things, such as the unseen, spiritual or existential realities.

  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #6 - August 19, 2013, 10:15 PM

    Hmm...



    Funny looking leech

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #7 - August 19, 2013, 10:25 PM

    Honestly looking a dozens of nasty looking clumps of cells while people tell me, "Look it looks like a leech" has been one of the worst part of this whole embryology in the Quran bit.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #8 - August 19, 2013, 10:28 PM

    Addendum:
    As I read through this even more, it is almost as though he realizes and admits to just how dishonest an endeavor this entire process (i.e. proving the Qur’an to be miraculous) truly is.

    It's like this article is a private memo and should have never been made public.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #9 - August 19, 2013, 10:29 PM

    Honestly looking a dozens of nasty looking clumps of cells while people tell me, "Look it looks like a leech" has been one of the worst part of this whole embryology in the Quran bit.

    It does kinda look like a leech. If you close your eyes and imagine a leech.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #10 - August 19, 2013, 10:30 PM

    It's like this article is a private memo and should have never been made public.


    That is exactly what I was thinking. I'd love to have an honest, private conversation with the guy. Better yet, I'd love to get inside his head. If this is the shit he is saying publically, just imagine what he is thinking.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #11 - August 19, 2013, 10:32 PM

    what about all those people who paid to get iERA's embryology monstrosity printed? Must be quite a kick in the teeth to them.
    Hopefully they will learn from their mistake.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #12 - August 19, 2013, 10:34 PM

    I suppose when you're shoveling shit, it all kinda looks the same anyway.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #13 - August 19, 2013, 10:49 PM

    So basically, with this “new approach,” what he is saying is that while the knowledge presented in the verses themselves is not miraculous, the fact that the verses can be reinterpreted to conform to modern science is miraculous.  wacko

    I should send him this. He’d have a field day.

    OK. I’m bored. Let’s do the same thing for the creation of Adam. Now remember, every verse in the Qur’an is important, so we need to be able to explain the metaphoric importance of each verse.

    When Allah said to the Angels that he was creating man from clay, what he really meant was that he was creating  a primitive organism that would, over several billion years, evolve over and over again into countless different species.

    When Allah said that he “fashioned” him, he meant that he decreed for factors like climate, food supply, terrain, and predators to determine which of those countless species would go extinct and which would survive to pass their genetic makeup on to give humans the appearance and makeup they have today.

    When Allah says that he breathed life into him, what he really meant was he allowed for the first land-dwelling life form to be able to inhale oxygen.

    When he says that he commanded the angels to bow down, he means that he allowed for these animals to be able to perceive and interpret light through their sense of sight—as angels are made of light. Satan, who is a metaphor for fire, remained a threatening force against early homo sapiens and thus “refused to bow down” to Adam. Unless they are able to “tame satan’s urges,” or control fire, it would remain a potentially deadly force against humans and their environment.  

    When Allah says that Adam was outcast from the garden, what he really means is that homo sapiens had to move out of the African savannah, where they originally evolved, to find better land and climates elsewhere.

    When Allah says that eating from the forbidden tree caused Adam and Eve to notice their nakedness, what he really means is that by the time mankind moved into climates that were conducive to agriculture, they also had to produce clothing to protect them from the elements.

    This is all making sense now! Laa ilaha illa lah!




  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #14 - August 19, 2013, 11:15 PM

    Quote
    the fact that the verses can be reinterpreted to conform to modern science is miraculous.


    Hilarious, what a farce.

    Meanwhile this da'wah about the Quran containing scientific miracles is widely peddled still.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #15 - August 19, 2013, 11:20 PM

    Quote
    Meanwhile this da'wah about the Quran containing scientific miracles is widely peddled still.


    and by his own organisation  http://www.iera.org.uk/research4_4.html
    http://www.onereason.org/order-materials/downloads/science-in-the-quran-pdf/


  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #16 - August 19, 2013, 11:23 PM

    I still think that this is a rather profound admission from a dawah-gandist. To have the integrity to at least admit this half of the BS they’ve been pedaling is impressive. I’d really love to know what he really thinks.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #17 - August 19, 2013, 11:47 PM

    In some ways, it's probably a good thing that these scientific miracles in Quran are being peddled. If someone has been fed this and then later finds out the truth, they would see how much the whole religion is based on lies and deception.
    The dawah-gandist probably see this happening now, so it's time to change tactics.
    It makes you wonder what was improved and changed over time in the past.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #18 - August 19, 2013, 11:50 PM

    I still think that this is a rather profound admission from a dawah-gandist. To have the integrity to at least admit this half of the BS they’ve been pedaling is impressive. I’d really love to know what he really thinks.


    One day one of these high profile dawah-gandists will apostasise. Its inevitable. It will be hard though, because the pressures and threats they will face will be tremendous.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #19 - August 20, 2013, 12:00 AM

    I mean, for all practical purposes, I believe Usama Hasan already has. I’d really love to see exactly what the mental block is with some of these guys. Is it arrogance? Is it fear? Is it willful dishonesty to preserve their status and the lives they have built for themselves? I really would love to know.

    The hard core salafis I can understand. They really do believe their own shit and they don’t apologize for it. The ignorant progressives I can understand. They only reference a handful of verses and ahadith and really don’t give much thought to all the silly parts.

    But these people who have been fully engaged in the study of the Qur’an—the folks who know exactly what’s in there and all of the problems that it entails—how on earth can they still claim it to be perfect!?

    OK. Fair enough. You believe Islam might be true. But to say that you believe that it is the absolute embodiment of divine perfection that all human beings must accept or face eternal torture? To say that there is absolutely no reasonable doubt, no other opinion that could possibly hold water? To actually go out of your way to make excuses and reinterpret and advocate and proselytize? There is no way you can’t know that you are full of shit.

    Even as I am trying to debate Ishina on the other thread, I know for a fact that I will either have to start blatantly lying (scientific miracles, linguistic miracles, etc) or just begin threatening her with hell. Really, when you read through the Qur’an, the threatening with hell is the only real argument.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #20 - August 20, 2013, 06:13 AM

    most/all of the problems Hamza identifies with the psuedoscience approach are found in "embrology in the quran refuted."

    http://embryologyinthequran.blogspot.co.uk/

    Captain Disguise and co deserve credit for actually getting through to him.

    There is no way for example that Hamza would have heard of "the fallacy of the undistributed middle otherwise.

    I too am suprised that Tzortzis is teachable. Many people have been trying for many years. I wonder if he is still willing to describe the iERA embryology in the quran paper as 'research', and if not, perhaps the thousands of pounds of other people's money that went into it should be refunded.
    Surely he is really pissing in iERA's fireworks. They are supposedly paying him to do high quality research. He has just admitted that his research is bollocks, and that charity time and money has been wasted. Why is he still employed?
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #21 - August 20, 2013, 06:22 AM

    shock and denial from Muslims:

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?372324-Hamza-Tzortzis-now-denies-the-scientific-miracles-of-the-Qur-an&p=5324484#post5324484
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #22 - August 20, 2013, 08:08 AM


    OK. I’m bored. Let’s do the same thing for the creation of Adam. Now remember, every verse in the Qur’an is important, so we need to be able to explain the metaphoric importance of each verse.

    When Allah said to the Angels that he was creating man from clay, what he really meant was that he was creating  a primitive organism that would, over several billion years, evolve over and over again into countless different species.

    When Allah said that he “fashioned” him, he meant that he decreed for factors like climate, food supply, terrain, and predators to determine which of those countless species would go extinct and which would survive to pass their genetic makeup on to give humans the appearance and makeup they have today.

    When Allah says that he breathed life into him, what he really meant was he allowed for the first land-dwelling life form to be able to inhale oxygen.

    When he says that he commanded the angels to bow down, he means that he allowed for these animals to be able to perceive and interpret light through their sense of sight—as angels are made of light. Satan, who is a metaphor for fire, remained a threatening force against early homo sapiens and thus “refused to bow down” to Adam. Unless they are able to “tame satan’s urges,” or control fire, it would remain a potentially deadly force against humans and their environment.  

    When Allah says that Adam was outcast from the garden, what he really means is that homo sapiens had to move out of the African savannah, where they originally evolved, to find better land and climates elsewhere.

    When Allah says that eating from the forbidden tree caused Adam and Eve to notice their nakedness, what he really means is that by the time mankind moved into climates that were conducive to agriculture, they also had to produce clothing to protect them from the elements.

    This is all making sense now! Laa ilaha illa lah!



    Love it. Pretty soon this'll happen. Probably is happening already.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #23 - August 20, 2013, 09:46 AM


    I should send him this. He’d have a field day.



    That is a brilliant example of how their reasoning works.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #24 - August 20, 2013, 09:47 AM



    From that thread:

    "We take Allah's word as the first source, and if science doesn't match up, that is the scientists' faults for not researching hard enough"


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #25 - August 20, 2013, 10:13 AM

    I saw that comment. Suddenly I realised how foolish I was, doing the exact opposite all these years.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #26 - August 20, 2013, 05:55 PM

    If you go on that thread on Ummah.com, apparently Hamza has made an account and is posting on there.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #27 - August 20, 2013, 06:11 PM

    From that thread:

    "We take Allah's word as the first source, and if science doesn't match up, that is the scientists' faults for not researching hard enough"




    I read that well done 'sister'

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #28 - August 20, 2013, 06:14 PM

    Preaching to the choir, always a sure way to feel you're right. And Jedi, she is our sister in humanity. Yes, sometimes I cringe at that thought to.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #29 - August 20, 2013, 06:16 PM

    If you go on that thread on Ummah.com, apparently Hamza has made an account and is posting on there.


    i would find it rather amusing if he got banned
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