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Theme Changer

 Topic: Say hello to Hell

 (Read 4465 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Say hello to Hell
     OP - September 02, 2013, 11:31 PM
    Imagine if there was a Hell and a judging God. Say it is not for eternity. Other details not necessary right now. (Mods please move if not in the right section)

    Ideally what sort of people would you have in Hell?

    Personally, if their was a omnipotent God I would suggest that it would be easy for Him to weigh the >the hurt/damage done by other people/events to the individual in question against the hurt/damage he/she has inflicted on other people. I don't know exactly what would constitute harm/damage but I hope you get my drift?
    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Hello to Hell
     Reply #1 - September 02, 2013, 11:49 PM
    Well, if I'm going there I'd have all sorts of thinkers, scientists, social movers, writers, philosophers etc to hang out with, which would be my heaven.

    But, what sort of people would I have in hell? Ethnic cleansers, rapists, murderers, abuses, Dick Chaney, human traffickers, basically just evil people.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #2 - September 05, 2013, 12:41 AM
    What if the rapist had been raped before? Maybe they are evil because of circumstances beyond their control, take in into account the fact that I tend to believe that we have no free will. Sure we can imprison them on earth to protect society, but if there is no free will, the hypothetical God would know everything about an individuals circumstances - exactly how much he/she is responsible
    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #3 - September 05, 2013, 12:59 AM
    If there's no free will then arguably there's no such thing as innocent or guilty, good or evil, things just simply are. I actually disagree with this. If free will is an illusion, it's a very convincing one.

    If someone is raped they have my sympathy, but if they do it in turn my sympathy ends. Circumstances beyond your control don't define you, what you do afterwards defines you.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #4 - September 05, 2013, 03:16 AM
    Why would there be an objective "good'' or "evil" even if there is free will?
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #5 - September 05, 2013, 03:23 AM
    Because we're an intelligent social species that needs norms like this. If we didn't define things as right and wrong we wouldn't survive.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #6 - September 05, 2013, 05:30 AM
    That doesn't make our socially based norms equivalent to "objective" rights and wrongs.

    Still I feel like consensus based "subjective" morality is really good enough for the purposes of regulating human behavior, although advocates of religion and others might disagree.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #7 - September 05, 2013, 06:37 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 05, 2013, 12:59 AM
    If there's no free will then arguably there's no such thing as innocent or guilty, good or evil, things just simply are. I actually disagree with this. If free will is an illusion, it's a very convincing one.

    If someone is raped they have my sympathy, but if they do it in turn my sympathy ends. Circumstances beyond your control don't define you, what you do afterwards defines you.

    I don't believe in free will. Every decision we make, we make based on our personality, state of mind and circumstances, and our personalities are shaped by our genes and the environment we grow up in, two things we have no control over. You might say: "I'd never hurt anyone", but if you were born and raised under circumstances that lead to you having a personality of a serial killer, then that wouldn't be true anymore. I cannot take credit for not being a rapist or a murderer. Instead, I say I'm lucky not to have been one.
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #8 - September 05, 2013, 10:21 AM
    ^Sounds like you're pushing away responsibility for your choice of actions.
    I agree that the environment plays a huge role in shaping people but to go as far as to excuse why people are rapists is far-fetched.
    After all, most of us are ex-muslims here even though we grew up in strict Islamic environments. But then again... The majority of the people who are raised muslim remain Muslims.  Huh?
    I don't know, to a certain extent you might be right but to say free will isn't possible is absurd.
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #9 - September 05, 2013, 10:58 AM
    Quote from: Capricasix on September 05, 2013, 10:21 AM
    ^Sounds like you're pushing away responsibility for your choice of actions.
    I agree that the environment plays a huge role in shaping people but to go as far as to excuse why people are rapists is far-fetched.
    After all, most of us are ex-muslims here even though we grew up in strict Islamic environments. But then again... The majority of the people who are raised muslim remain Muslims.  Huh?
    I don't know, to a certain extent you might be right but to say free will isn't possible is absurd.

    I think it's by chance that I found my way out of Islam. I'm an extremely skeptical person, but I didn't choose to be so, and it was my skepticism that lead me to leave Islam. I got lucky.

    Criminals should be punished for their actions, but not because they "deserve" it, but rather because of the consequences of not punishing them.

    Maybe it's not a good idea to tell people they have no free will, but that doesn't make it any less true. And in my case, it helped me stop blaming myself and get on with my life, and to stop being so angry towards others. Disbelieving in free-will gave me peace of mind.
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #10 - September 09, 2013, 07:56 PM
    Personally it is not for me to say who will be in Hell.
  • Re: Say hello to Hell
     Reply #11 - September 09, 2013, 09:14 PM
    Quote from: Capricasix on September 05, 2013, 10:21 AM
    ^Sounds like you're pushing away responsibility for your choice of actions.
    I agree that the environment plays a huge role in shaping people but to go as far as to excuse why people are rapists is far-fetched.
    After all, most of us are ex-muslims here even though we grew up in strict Islamic environments. But then again... The majority of the people who are raised muslim remain Muslims.  Huh?
    I don't know, to a certain extent you might be right but to say free will isn't possible is absurd.


    Free will itself is a nonsensical term. Acts are either caused or random. Existentialism, by any account.

    As for free will as an illusion, that's the contravening raison d'être of islam.
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #12 - September 09, 2013, 11:20 PM
    Quote from: schizo on September 09, 2013, 09:14 PM
    Free will itself is a nonsensical term. Acts are either caused or random. Existentialism, by any account.

    As for free will as an illusion, that's the contravening raison d'être of islam.



    Even though I said I think that free will is an illusion - I don't really understand it. Which does piss me off because as muslim teenager thinking about free will and Allah knowing what we are going to do anyway I did rationalise using pascals wager, even though I didn't know that the dude who had a theorem (was it) also came up with this. Then no thoughts for years and years until I got broadband in 2008 lol, but think my brain is too frazzled to get my head round it - but I feel it is just there and I need to just grasp it.

    Though in my scenario of hell dwellers -  equation  HARM OUT>HARM IN - does not/does free will make a difference?

    Also thinking my 'equation' lol is a variation of the golden rule. I know there is a platinum one. basically treat others as you want to be treated - if you don't - you occur the penalty, obviously trafficking, killing, raping would be bigger deducts than nicking a packet of crisps.
    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #13 - September 10, 2013, 03:12 AM
    Quote from: C1981 on September 09, 2013, 07:56 PM
    Personally it is not for me to say who will be in Hell.


    On this thread it is.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #14 - September 10, 2013, 03:24 AM
    It's not for me to say who goes to Hell in general.
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #15 - September 10, 2013, 03:27 AM
    It's not like you'll actually create a hell and send people there.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #16 - September 10, 2013, 03:42 AM
    1. I don't have that power.

    2. It's not for me to determine who goes to Hell.
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #17 - September 10, 2013, 03:46 AM
    A post in a random internet thread of a hypothetical situation will not create hell and then determine who goes there.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #18 - September 10, 2013, 03:59 AM
    I know that
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #19 - September 10, 2013, 04:08 AM
    So what's the problem? And I'm not trying to be aggressive, as an atheist I'm genuinely perplexed as to why a hypothetical that will effect nothing would be something to shy away from.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #20 - September 10, 2013, 04:30 AM
    No problem my friend. Just talking.
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #21 - September 10, 2013, 04:36 AM
     Huh?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Re: Say hello to Hell
     Reply #22 - September 10, 2013, 04:43 PM
    Quote from: devilsadvokat on September 09, 2013, 11:20 PM
    Though in my scenario of hell dwellers -  equation  HARM OUT>HARM IN - does not/does free will make a difference?


    Sure, if your God is impotent.

    Quote from: devilsadvokat on September 09, 2013, 11:20 PM
    Also thinking my 'equation' lol is a variation of the golden rule. I know there is a platinum one. basically treat others as you want to be treated - if you don't - you occur the penalty, obviously trafficking, killing, raping would be bigger deducts than nicking a packet of crisps.


    Not necessarily, the elites (or the masters, projectors) don't treat others as they would like to be treated.
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #23 - September 10, 2013, 05:26 PM
    Quote from: Capricasix on September 05, 2013, 10:21 AM
    ^Sounds like you're pushing away responsibility for your choice of actions.
    I agree that the environment plays a huge role in shaping people but to go as far as to excuse why people are rapists is far-fetched.
    After all, most of us are ex-muslims here even though we grew up in strict Islamic environments. But then again... The majority of the people who are raised muslim remain Muslims.  Huh?
    I don't know, to a certain extent you might be right but to say free will isn't possible is absurd.


    If you look at the science, the evidence is very supportive of the fact that there is no free will. You can play around with the semantics of what "free will" really means, but experiments clearly show that complex, unconscious events occur before you become conscious of your decisions.
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #24 - September 10, 2013, 05:40 PM
    Quote from: schizo on September 09, 2013, 09:14 PM
    Free will itself is a nonsensical term. Acts are either caused or random. Existentialism, by any account.

    As for free will as an illusion, that's the contravening raison d'être of islam.


    +1
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #25 - September 10, 2013, 05:41 PM
    Quote from: Toona on September 05, 2013, 06:37 AM
    I don't believe in free will. Every decision we make, we make based on our personality, state of mind and circumstances, and our personalities are shaped by our genes and the environment we grow up in, two things we have no control over. You might say: "I'd never hurt anyone", but if you were born and raised under circumstances that lead to you having a personality of a serial killer, then that wouldn't be true anymore. I cannot take credit for not being a rapist or a murderer. Instead, I say I'm lucky not to have been one.


    I'm going to take a leap here, and totally take credit for not being a physically abusive mother.

    I was completely raised in the sort of environment that should have created an abuser in me.  My sister is abusive to her children, I am not.  I restrain my anger, even if I visualise hitting them, I don't.  I chose to do that.

    Nothing differs in mine or my sister's upbringing, same parents, same abuse, same schools, same shaping of values in children's home when we left home.  She beats her children, I do not.  That is my free will.

    To say that was nothing to do with my choice, is to make the actual choice I made...logically, with thought (as in I spent time thinking about it), away from me.

    I just think it's not quite right to say no such thing as free will exists.  It is like giving up agency over oneself.  I can't allow myself to give in to that way of thinking, because then I have nothing, nothing whatsoever to be proud of when I choose to do something and accomplish it, I can't even take credit for it.  :/
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #26 - September 10, 2013, 05:47 PM
    Amen to that
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #27 - September 10, 2013, 05:49 PM
    Noone is telling you to give up that style of thinking. In my eyes, it is very reasonable to continue making "choices" and "decisions" because after all, that is the only way of looking at the window of life, at least consciously. However, the problem remains with the definition of free will. The term itself is nonsensical and incoherent like Schizo mentioned.
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #28 - September 10, 2013, 06:15 PM
    I would burn those that objectify women, and women that are dirty and used like handkerchiefs.
  • Say hello to Hell
     Reply #29 - September 10, 2013, 06:52 PM
    Whether or not there is free-will or not is immaterial to the reality that if we submit ourselves to the idea that there is no free-will, our behavior changes.

    What do I mean? Most of us are raised to think we have free-will. The result is that we act as if we have free-will and take responsibility for our actions as much as we can. Some more than others.

    If society were to get rid of the idea of free-will, such that it is not how we teach our people, then people would act vastly different.

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