Muslim and Gay

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- Quod Sum Eris
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OP - September 03, 2013, 03:48 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRzvrk4cZHc

And a response:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1JhjugqB0U

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- Toona
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Reply #1 - September 03, 2013, 12:58 PM

God he's annoying.

But I don't like that second video either, at least the part where he okays making fun of fat people as opposed to gay people. People have varying degrees of metabolism, appetite and mental health that's not really in their control. But that's another topic.

I'm still not quite sure how much of homosexuality is genetic and how much of it is determined by environmental factors. People are combating homophobia by insisting that homosexuality is purely genetic, and would go as far as calling me homophobic for questioning whether it's genetic or not. I don't care either way, and I'm open to clarification, but I don't like extremism in either direction.
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Reply #2 - September 03, 2013, 01:22 PM

Honestly I added the second link just to give a little humour. Whether or not it's genetic, passed down through generations that occasionally activates in some people I honestly don't know. It's very obvious it's a natural thing, not like humans are the only species to have homosexuality. I don't know how people can seriously state that it's something you choose, or something you're influenced into like the idiot prattling on in the first video.

I was very curious to get peoples opinions on this from an islamic and former islamic perspective, I've noticed a few posts mentioned gay people, I think the most recent one was in an intro where they recalled mentioning to a friend their brother might be gay and being shocked at the reaction, but there's never really been a topic far as I know on what it's like being muslim and gay.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- Toona
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Reply #3 - September 03, 2013, 02:05 PM

Well, I never had much personal experience with homosexuality, but the way I saw it was that it was a social disease that had to be dealt with in the most extreme manner. I couldn't judge the individuals, since I was struggling with the concept of freewill, but if Islam said that this is how it had to be handled, then it had to be for the greater good. It's virtually impossible to predict the long-term effects of something like gay people freely practicing their gayness, so I had to have faith that God knows something we don't.

That's how I was forced to think, as a loyal Muslim. It was exhausting.
- Capricasix
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Reply #4 - September 03, 2013, 02:23 PM

It is wrong to be gay in Islam.

Just another reason to leave the religion.
- Quod Sum Eris
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Reply #5 - September 03, 2013, 02:48 PM

Well I understand that, but I was wondering how exactly people see it or how other's they've known see it, Hate the sin love the sinner, test from allah, need to be cured, should be killed, someone to avoid, someone to fear, someone to pity, etc.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- Toona
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Reply #6 - September 03, 2013, 03:06 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 03, 2013, 02:48 PM
Well I understand that, but I was wondering how exactly people see it or how other's they've known see it, Hate the sin love the sinner, test from allah, need to be cured, should be killed, someone to avoid, someone to fear, someone to pity, etc.

Modernized Muslims think of homosexuality as a test, and that it in itself is not a sin. Having gay sex is what's sinful. The Sunni instructions on how to deal with people who are caught having gay sex are clear, that they must be executed. The majority of Muslims are Sunnis, and thus endorse this one way or the other. The best they could say is that it only applies for people who are caught by four witnesses, which is nearly impossible, so in reality it's only a punishment for people who admit to having gay sex, but if it's kept private, it's nobody else's business.

However, in the old days, I don't think they were sophisticated enough to think of it like that. They just view homosexuality as whole as a rotten thing, and homosexuals as people who need to be killed, and that's that. That's the raw Islamic view.
- Capricasix
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Reply #7 - September 03, 2013, 03:09 PM

The muslims I've been surrounded with avoid talking about it altogether. Almost as if they might catch the "illness" or whatever themselves. It's quite funny.

They will say homosexuality is disgusting and end it there.
It's quite taboo to even discuss so I don't know how they feel about it.

There was a time I used to think it was disgusting (when I was a lot younger)... But never wrong or unnatural. I think most Muslims know it's not a choice homosexuals make yet they will still condemn it.
- kutta
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Reply #8 - September 03, 2013, 04:02 PM

Let's suppose that homosexuality is caused purely by non-genetic factors. Does this imply that a homosexual has a choice? Because if it doesn't, then there is no point in debating this (within an Islamic context).
- Toona
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Reply #9 - September 03, 2013, 04:43 PM

Quote from: kutta on September 03, 2013, 04:02 PM
Let's suppose that homosexuality is caused purely by non-genetic factors. Does this imply that a homosexual has a choice? Because if it doesn't, then there is no point in debating this (within an Islamic context).

It would imply that homosexuality, while not necessarily a choice, is not set in stone, and is possible to overcome, like obesity and depression. Religions rely on this being true in their war against homosexuality, which is probably why a lot of people work so hard to disprove it.
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Reply #10 - September 03, 2013, 07:15 PM

Well, even if homosexuality is possible to overcome, God would still be ultimately and undeniably responsible for creating a biological environment which permits these factors to determine one's sexuality, especially if these factors are not within someone's control (i.e. hormones in the uterus). It would still make the punishment for homosexuality unreasonable. The comparison to obesity and depression is far-fetched as it is, but who, at the end of the day, punishes someone for being obese or depressed?
- kutta
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Reply #11 - September 03, 2013, 07:19 PM

The key point though, by far, is that scientific studies support the fact that most people experience little or no choice in sexual orientation.
- Toona
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Reply #12 - September 03, 2013, 07:29 PM

I don't think the comparison is far-fetched, but I don't disagree with anything else you said. Hell, even if it was a choice, it's nobody's business.
- scamper_22
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Reply #13 - September 03, 2013, 10:14 PM

Quote from: kutta on September 03, 2013, 07:19 PM
The key point though, by far, is that scientific studies support the fact that most people experience little or no choice in sexual orientation.

To the modern religious person, this is irrelevant.

Having gay sex is a choice.
Your sexual orientation might not be a choice, but it IS your choice to act on it.
Women might never turn them on.
They might always lust for a man.

I am heterosexual. But me having sex with a woman is definitely a choice.
While I was fully Muslim, I abstained from having sex. It is definitely possible.
Even right now, I am in my office... and magically, I am not having sex with anyone even though.

It is why the whole 'is it a choice or is it genetic...' just confuses the issue.
Saying something is natural doesn't prove anything. Monkeys have gay sex. It is natural. They also throw feces on each other, murder those not in their tribe, don't have a life long mate...

Our genes might give us tendencies. But we always have a choice to act.

It really doesn't matter. It only matters if you think the homosexual act is moral, immoral, or it doesn't matter.
It's purely an opinion piece.

For me, I don't see anything immoral with two adults choosing to mate with the sex. It's their business.
- Nero
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Reply #14 - September 04, 2013, 03:00 AM

why?
why having a discussion about homosexuality and how forbidden and sinful it is always ALWAYS! makes me horny?

YOLO AND SWAG WILL SET YOU FREE
- kutta
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Reply #15 - September 04, 2013, 03:20 AM

Quote from: scamper_22 on September 03, 2013, 10:14 PM
To the modern religious person, this is irrelevant.

Having gay sex is a choice.
Your sexual orientation might not be a choice, but it IS your choice to act on it.
Women might never turn them on.
They might always lust for a man.

I am heterosexual. But me having sex with a woman is definitely a choice.
While I was fully Muslim, I abstained from having sex. It is definitely possible.
Even right now, I am in my office... and magically, I am not having sex with anyone even though.

It is why the whole 'is it a choice or is it genetic...' just confuses the issue.
Saying something is natural doesn't prove anything. Monkeys have gay sex. It is natural. They also throw feces on each other, murder those not in their tribe, don't have a life long mate...

Our genes might give us tendencies. But we always have a choice to act.

It really doesn't matter. It only matters if you think the homosexual act is moral, immoral, or it doesn't matter.
It's purely an opinion piece.

For me, I don't see anything immoral with two adults choosing to mate with the sex. It's their business.

Noone is discussing about whether or not you can choose to have sex. It is about whether or not you can choose who you are attracted to.
- deusvult
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Reply #16 - September 04, 2013, 04:41 AM

So pray away the gay so when you get to heaven you can.....be with the wife you married to keep the gay away and god will erase your mind like total recall and now you want women?

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
- deusvult
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Reply #17 - September 04, 2013, 04:42 AM

I do find it humorous that a guy that, in theory, could satisfy his desires for other women, even through "appropriate means" of marrying her ( or if she's a slave but we won't mention that) telling a guy that they just because I think about other women you're celibate for life at least for the sex that you want to have.

I can imagine someone telling Dawahman he has to be in a gay relationship for the rest of his life, and watch him freak out.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
- zeca
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Reply #18 - September 04, 2013, 08:33 PM

Has anyone read this?

Quote
Homosexuality is still a taboo subject in the Arab world. While clerics denounce it as a heinous sin, newspapers, reluctant to address it directly, talk cryptically of ‘shameful acts’ and ‘deviant behaviour’.

Amid the calls for reform in the Middle East, homosexuality is one issue that almost everyone would prefer to ignore. In this absorbing account, Guardian journalist Brian Whitaker calls attention to the voices of men and women struggling with gay identities in societies where they are marginalised and persecuted by the authorities. He paints a disturbing picture of people who live secretive, often fearful lives; of daughters and sons beaten and ostracised by their families or sent to be ‘cured’ by psychiatrists.

Deeply informed and engagingly written, Unspeakable Love reveals that, while repressive prejudices and stereotypes still govern much thinking about homosexuality, there are pockets of change and tolerance...

http://www.al-bab.com/unspeakablelove/default.htm

Which side are you on?
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