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Theme Changer

 Topic: Student with questions

 (Read 16963 times)
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  • Student with questions
     OP - September 11, 2013, 03:28 PM

    Hello Everyone!

    I am a student currently attending Simon Fraser University in Vancouver Canada enrolled in the Archaeology program. Recently I applied for an Islamic Studies program in order to 1) Deprogram myself from the media bias against Muslims, 2) Learn about the many cultures, people and religion in a part of the world I am interested in developing a career in, 3) Just learn about the history of Islam as the Archaeology program does not go into depth of any currently practised religions. You can find the program's website here if you go to Simon Fraser University's website or google SFU Islamic Studies. Please take a quick look in order to see who the professors and scholars in the current program along with some of their published work. Perhaps you will read some of their work so you can see the "picture" of Islam taught.

    Most of the professors are liberal/moderates coming from either Western nations or having fled/immigrated from conservative Muslim nations. As you can see I have been introduced to a moderate form of Islam. Many topics include secularism, ethics and women's rights. Dr. Amyn Sajoo is a harsh teacher although fair if students work hard. However he is very critical of Western concepts of citizenship and civic society. As he puts it Western nation promote the ideals of the individual and their freedom to pursue good according to their own conceptions. This is usually followed by Sajoo promoting the ummah the Islamic community as a better alternative. Sajoo uses Islam to demonstrate the idea of a collective community or nation that Islam promotes. This is odd to me as a student of history. I realise during many of the Muslim Empires there was a level of tolerance not seen since Rome collapsed. However often this tolerance was not the same as we see within secular nations today. Often different people and Muslims were clearly divided in different groups rather than different perspectives we see today.  To me this shows that there is a clear line dividing Islamic concepts and secular one, especially in the cases where secular concept replaced Islamic ones in Turkey. Often these lectures are critical of Western concepts while becoming sermons when the subject switches to Islamic concepts. Sajoo makes note of these differences but only regarding those Islamic views or politics he disagrees with especially with Islamic parties rising. To put it simply he seems very reactionary to non-Muslim/Muslim reactionaries while taking a swipe at secular concepts that allow such people to voice their opinion. Apparently, to me, he supports pluralism only when reactionaries have no voice at all, ie selective pluralism he agrees with. As you can see I am not satisfied with many of the concepts Sajoo promotes on one hand yet demonizes when given that chance if another group promotes these same concepts.  /End rant about my professor.

    Why I am here and what I am looking for is another point of view(s). As many of the members here come from diverse background I am hoping a few could recommend some books to read regarding Islam as a religion, system of law, culture, etc. A book does not need to cover all these subjects, I am just asking for book that cover at least one major concept/system that has been influenced by Islam. As a student my finances are limited I can not afford to buy rubbish so recommendations are key. Besides this I already have many paper weights that were former Eurocentric drivel. I may ask a few question here and there. Comment on a few thread on current affairs and those regarding history I am familiar with. However I will be hesitant to make comments regarding Islam outside questions here and there.

    A quick bio. I was raised in what I would now call a quasi-fundamentalist Christian family during my early childhood. Although I was never isolated from public school or interaction with other people I wouldn't say I was introduced to any sort of diversity. I was raised on a farm near a small rail-road community just under a population of 5k. White Christians dominated the area with First Nations reservations neatly separated by distance and treated as pariahs. This treatment is often white-washed or swept under the rug when people look at Canada today. Canada was just as brutal as America, we just had less time to break down First Nations cultures along with forced assimilation. One set of grandparents were very racist coming from Germany during the height of racial tensions prior to WW2. Along with their religious convictions regarding Jews it was an interesting experience that I didn't fully grasp until a decade later. They raised me for the most part so had a lot of influence over me. Anything regarding "evil" I was never introduced to any of it be it what we could call evil these days or concepts such as Vampires, even if the vampire was the one from Sesame Street that taught children how to count.... Yes Sesame Street was taboo because "vampires" can not teach math... All evil real or imaginary were directly tied to Satan. Typical children stories I was read were from the Bible. When I look back at this I realised I was thoroughly indoctrinated into a form of Christianity. Considering I was taught that wiping out Humanity save Noah was an act of a good God while a counting count crossed the line. I was deprogrammed when I moved to the west coast as there was a large immigrant population and direct interaction with First Nation cultures. School curriculum was taught differently with acceptance of other cultures along with acknowledgement that other how European Canadians treated other people. Although I still believe this negative influence during my early years will always influence me I have recognized many of the bias' I hold and wish to challenge them. Regarding my current religious status I am very much on the fence about it. On one hand I do not actively worship or acknowledge any current proposed God. I have accepted the possibility of a deist form. However for me this is only acceptance of one possible concept that is just an assertion that attempt to answer the unknown, nothing more. I already have one absentee father, I have no need for another in the form of a God that requires worship.

    Thank you for your time
  • Student with questions
     Reply #1 - September 11, 2013, 03:39 PM

    Cliff please?

    Islam is an evil cult invented by Mohammed to conquer the world.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #2 - September 11, 2013, 04:22 PM

    Hello Everyone!

    Hello!   parrot

    Quote
    You can find the program's website here if you go to Simon Fraser University's website or google SFU Islamic Studies.

    http://www.ccsmsc.sfu.ca/

    Quote
    As you can see I have been introduced to a moderate form of Islam.

    Moderate? Ask people around you what they think of Irsjad Manji? She's a moderate Canadian muslim.
    http://www.irshadmanji.com/

    So, you have a Christian upbringing and want to be an archaeologist.
    What is your standpoint when it comes to evolution?
  • Student with questions
     Reply #3 - September 11, 2013, 05:05 PM

    Cliff please?

    Islam is an evil cult invented by Mohammed to conquer the world.


    Sorry I am at a loss regarding the cliff comment.

    Is Islam down to that in your point of view. Are there no redeeming qualities developed after Mohammed? Such as the sense of community, Ummah, Sajoo talks about.

    http://www.ccsmsc.sfu.ca/
    Moderate? Ask people around you what they think of Irsjad Manji? She's a moderate Canadian muslim.
    http://www.irshadmanji.com/

    So, you have a Christian upbringing and want to be an archaeologist.
    What is your standpoint when it comes to evolution?


    Thanks for linking SFU, I wasnt able to link the website in my OP and Irsjad Manji's website.

    I accept evolution as it stands due to consensus within this field. I have only have a few basic biology courses under my belt in order to cover requirements by SFU outside of majors and minors. So I do not consider myself well educated beyond the fundamental basics taught at this level. It works and makes sense. Besides part of course load in the archaeology program covers some of basics fields of anthropology which use evolution among other fields connected to the theory which act in concert.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #4 - September 11, 2013, 05:22 PM

    Welcome, Bogart.

    I’m sorry that Selltek was your first responder; I hope that what they say about first impressions does not prove to be true in this case. You can pretty much just ignore anything he has ever said here.

    Quote
    Sajoo uses Islam to demonstrate the idea of a collective community or nation that Islam promotes. This is odd to me as a student of history. I realise during many of the Muslim Empires there was a level of tolerance not seen since Rome collapsed. However often this tolerance was not the same as we see within secular nations today. Often different people and Muslims were clearly divided in different groups rather than different perspectives we see today.


    This is a very common trend among revisionist Muslims who seek to perpetuate an exaggerated version of the Islamic Golden Age. The fact of the matter is that the world has never seen a more inclusive, tolerant, progressive system than democratic secularism—even with all of its flaws. While there were certainly pockets of relative tolerance for specific groups in certain chapters of the histories of the many emirates and caliphates that ruled the Islamic world, the overarching truth is that those not subscribing to the beliefs of the respective ruling class were subject to desperate treatment and generally dealt with as second class citizens. There is strong precedent for this in the Qur’an and the prophetic tradition, as well. (Take the ideas of the Jizya, marital laws between religions, and inheritance as examples.)

    I know you asked for some good books to read, and I’ll have to think for a moment over a list to recommend to you. Any scholarly, peer reviewed account of Islamic rule should prove that it never really was all hunky dory. 
  • Student with questions
     Reply #5 - September 12, 2013, 01:53 AM

    Islam is true for all time and unchanging. It's the fundamental flaw of it. Islam survives because it's thought of as the best. so when you live in a world where you have countries in which most people are muslim and their lives are worse than countries where there are mostly none muslims and their lives are better, it's incredibly important to devalue the more advanced countries because from an islamic perspective this is not how the world is supposed to be.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Student with questions
     Reply #6 - September 12, 2013, 02:06 AM

    Don't forget the death sentence for apostasy.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #7 - September 12, 2013, 04:23 AM

    @happymurtad

    Beyond class room studies I have read books such as Spain: A History, although many chapters had different writers., The Battle for Spain, The Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Jews, and Christians Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain, Communities of Violence: Persecution of Minorities in the Middle Ages, 1453: The Holy War for Constantinople and the Clash of Islam and the West, The Ottoman Empire: The Classical Age 1300-1600, just to name a few. Also a number of books about Byzantium

    Pointing out revisionist history is one of the reasons why I am asking for recommendation. Europe had a history of doing the the same thing for centuries. Many rarely used any Muslim sources or only minor information. Recently I started read The Prophet and the Age of the Caliphates as it uses Muslims sources as the primary sources rather than European ones. Although it requires a lot of referencing as it like it toss out name with few citations about these figues.

    An issue with peer-review with published books is that this standard is not as rigorous as it is in other fields. Often publishers have a few people that review these books, some are paid, some are not.  This lower standard is what allows many books to hit the shelves such as ID/Creationist books or history of WW2. If the reviewers already agree with a position any review could already be biased regardless of fact checking.

    Islam is true for all time and unchanging. It's the fundamental flaw of it. Islam survives because it's thought of as the best. so when you live in a world where you have countries in which most people are muslim and their lives are worse than countries where there are mostly none muslims and their lives are better, it's incredibly important to devalue the more advanced countries because from an islamic perspective this is not how the world is supposed to be.


    I read about this line of thought when it came to the reforms in the Ottoman Empire during the 19th century, I at a loss at what the term used to describe innovation of Islam. I find this odd as in my stated example there was opposition to innovation yet many of the scholars and professors in my course speak about secularism and reform. This could just be authoritarian religious systems baulking at change vs those that desire change or at least lay claim that theres "reforms" were always part of Islam of the past but not today. Perhaps this moderate movement is similar to reform seen in Christianity centuries ago.

    Don't forget the death sentence for apostasy.


    I have heard/seen two sides of apostasy. On one hand in Muslim nations that are not secular there seems to be a hard-line view of apostasy forcing people to hide their lack of belief. Yet in the West I heard the death penalty is only for those that work against Islam. However this idea of being "against" Islam is not defined. This leaves the definition up to individuals that could vary. For some this could be simple as not believing or for others being a critic of Islam pointing out flaws as Quod has done.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #8 - September 12, 2013, 10:08 AM

    Tom Holland - In the Shadow of the Sword

    Edit: As regards tolerance there's this article by Patricia Crone (pdf):
    "No compulsion in religion" Q. 2:256 in mediaeval and modern interpretation

    More articles by Patricia Crone here
  • Student with questions
     Reply #9 - September 12, 2013, 10:23 AM


    The Ummah mythos depends on many false assumptions:

    (1) That there is no community or solidarity without the Islamic ummah.

    (2) That the Islamic ummah is an exemplary organising principle for mankind.

    (3) That societies require correction and this correction can be achieved by the subsuming of individual and collective identities into the ummah.

    (4) This is specific to the utopia-Ummah mythos peddled as an alternative to the horrible, uncaring liberal 'West' - it fundamentally misunderstands, sometimes willingly, sometimes devotedly and deliberately, liberal, secular societies and individual rights.

    To summarise, the Ummah-mythos is romanticised utopianism, and an assertion of a prejudice and sensibility of Islamic superiority.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Student with questions
     Reply #10 - September 12, 2013, 10:30 AM

    To summarise, the Ummah-mythos is romanticised utopianism, and an assertion of a prejudice and sensibility of Islamic superiority.



    Actually I'd argue that the ummah is retrogressive muhammedanism, which within itself is a heretical notion to hold. Even during the period of the four caliphs such a utopia never existed and it will never exist, as its traumatic genesis is the death and perceived perpetuation of Muhammad and his propensities.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #11 - September 12, 2013, 10:56 AM

    I’m sorry that Selltek was your first responder; I hope that what they say about first impressions does not prove to be true in this case. You can pretty much just ignore anything he has ever said here.


    Indeed.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Student with questions
     Reply #12 - September 12, 2013, 12:42 PM

    Islam is true for all time and unchanging. It's the fundamental flaw of it. Islam survives because it's thought of as the best. so when you live in a world where you have countries in which most people are muslim and their lives are worse than countries where there are mostly none muslims and their lives are better, it's incredibly important to devalue the more advanced countries because from an islamic perspective this is not how the world is supposed to be.


    How about you stop making unsubstantiated points without a rudimentary grounding in fiqh? The qu'ran is unchanging, yes, but not its interpretations, Islamic fiqh and mu'amalet.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #13 - September 12, 2013, 02:53 PM

    Quote
    bogart
    I have heard/seen two sides of apostasy. On one hand in Muslim nations that are not secular there seems to be a hard-line view of apostasy forcing people to hide their lack of belief. Yet in the West I heard the death penalty is only for those that work against Islam. However this idea of being "against" Islam is not defined. This leaves the definition up to individuals that could vary. For some this could be simple as not believing or for others being a critic of Islam pointing out flaws as Quod has done.


    It is prescribed in the Tafsirs of Muslim scholars that an apostate must be put to death.

    As for criticizing Islam, the death penalty is prescribed for that area also as Muhammed did put to death his critics.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #14 - September 12, 2013, 02:58 PM

    Unlike this verse from the Bible, which of course, was never literal:

    13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
    13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
    13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
    13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #15 - September 12, 2013, 03:29 PM

    happymurtad this is bogart's thread. If you want to talk about the Bible with me, then start a thread in the Religion category.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #16 - September 12, 2013, 03:33 PM

    Don’t worry. I don’t want to. And I know how thread topics work. Don’t patronize me.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #17 - September 12, 2013, 03:47 PM

    ok
  • Student with questions
     Reply #18 - September 12, 2013, 04:06 PM

    Selltek has permanently left the building.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Student with questions
     Reply #19 - September 12, 2013, 04:07 PM

    I think there's a lot to your question.

    For one thing, what do you mean by Islam?

    A lot of the 'good things' that you mention that come out of Islam have nothing to do with Islam itself, but can be derived from almost any group dynamics. That sense of ummah is just a sense of belonging. I don't mean to belittle it. In this age of individualism, that sense of belonging can definitely be yearned for. Yet, it can be found just as easily in political groups, other religions, Scientology...

    When most people here speak of Islam, it is going to be from one of two perspectives.
    1. A textual/rational approach. What do the texts of Islam say and the interpretations and just how bad it is.
    2. The social implications of all the rules of Islam.

    If you don't care about what is true and untrue and what is based and not based on text and just wish to have something called Islam, then sure, it can be a very regular thing.

    The reality of the situation is that Islam was a religion founded 1400 years ago in the tribal lands of arabia. It is a religion that contains the values and lifestyle of those people. It is full of violence, slavery, subjugation of people, anti-gay, anti-women, anti-freedom, spreading of the islamic state by force...
    You could say that about almost any major group 1400 years ago. That people today continue to think Islam is the perfect religion and need to follow specific versus on how to dress, go to the washroom, what to eat, what to drink, what to say, how to pray... does take them back to those times.
    It is simply not something any reasoned and goodly person can subscribe to in this day and age.

    Now, again, this is not to say people can't twist thing to keep their tradition and morph it into something more usable. A general belief in god, and good family values. They certainly can and you can definitely see value in that and talk to all kinds of nice people who speak of the goodness of Islam and how it brings them peace and happiness and community.

    But again, what do you mean by Islam?


  • Student with questions
     Reply #20 - September 12, 2013, 04:23 PM

    Well thought response Scamper
  • Student with questions
     Reply #21 - September 13, 2013, 03:31 PM

    Tom Holland - In the Shadow of the Sword

    Edit: As regards tolerance there's this article by Patricia Crone (pdf):
    "No compulsion in religion" Q. 2:256 in mediaeval and modern interpretation

    More articles by Patricia Crone here


    Thanks for linking the book and articles. I only glanced at a few so far. I will tackle a few more today as it is my day off.

    I think there's a lot to your question.



    For one thing, what do you mean by Islam?

    A lot of the 'good things' that you mention that come out of Islam have nothing to do with Islam itself, but can be derived from almost any group dynamics. That sense of ummah is just a sense of belonging. I don't mean to belittle it. In this age of individualism, that sense of belonging can definitely be yearned for. Yet, it can be found just as easily in political groups, other religions, Scientology...

    When most people here speak of Islam, it is going to be from one of two perspectives.
    1. A textual/rational approach. What do the texts of Islam say and the interpretations and just how bad it is.
    2. The social implications of all the rules of Islam.

    If you don't care about what is true and untrue and what is based and not based on text and just wish to have something called Islam, then sure, it can be a very regular thing.

    The reality of the situation is that Islam was a religion founded 1400 years ago in the tribal lands of arabia. It is a religion that contains the values and lifestyle of those people. It is full of violence, slavery, subjugation of people, anti-gay, anti-women, anti-freedom, spreading of the islamic state by force...
    You could say that about almost any major group 1400 years ago. That people today continue to think Islam is the perfect religion and need to follow specific versus on how to dress, go to the washroom, what to eat, what to drink, what to say, how to pray... does take them back to those times.
    It is simply not something any reasoned and goodly person can subscribe to in this day and age.

    Now, again, this is not to say people can't twist thing to keep their tradition and morph it into something more usable. A general belief in god, and good family values. They certainly can and you can definitely see value in that and talk to all kinds of nice people who speak of the goodness of Islam and how it brings them peace and happiness and community.

    But again, what do you mean by Islam?



    Both points of view I have heard is Islam is not just a religion but a way of life, laws, customs, human rights, banking system, etc. To put it simply its the end all be all of everything. All these different idea and systems are due to the various schools of Islamic thought. These schools of thought develop all these concepts using the Quran as a base. I guess that is why in certain views can never change as it would go against the Quran, or at least interpretations of the Quran that are more documented by Hadiths and early work from various schools of thought. As I said Islam taught to me is as you said, pretty much everything anyone will do or face in life and after death.

    I can understand many people will reinterpret their religion to fit with modern times. Although from my experience Christians do not deny actions of God in the OT such as the eradication of various ethnic groups. Mostly I just hear a response that those people deserved it due to their own actions so it was "good" that God exterminated these people by his hand or by his "chosen" people. In the case of the OT most of these verse can be completely ignored due to the new covenant. Yet with the Quran verses talking about wife beating for example just baffle me. I see the two steps leading up to it are fine; talking to a wife then removing yourself from the home. However the last option, beating a wife, is reinterpreted to mean beat her with a small stick or feather. To me this is just silly. The first two steps would have a greater chance at success than the humorous image of a man beating someone with a feather. Maybe the idea is to win a wife over using comedy?

    When it comes to truth I look try to look at the Quran and Islam the same way I look at the other Abrahamic religions. I go to the older sources and work regarding these sources. Modern views just seem like rationalization in light of the modern world. If complementary sources, and I use the word loosely, hold certain views that are now being ignored I question the modern views even more.

    Am I incorrect in the view that Islam is supposed to be the end all be all of everything past, present and future?
  • Student with questions
     Reply #22 - September 13, 2013, 05:54 PM

    "Am I incorrect in the view that Islam is supposed to be the end all be all of everything past, present and future?"

    If we're talking standard sunni or shia Islam which comprises most of the Muslim world, then yes. The view is the following.

    1. The koran is the final revelation from God to mankind
    2. The koran is the final word on morality.
    3. The actions and words of the prophet mohamed and other leaders are to be used as an example for all of mankind to follow eternally.  I can't emphasize this point enough. I was literally taught what foot to enter the washroom with and to sit and pee because there is a hadith out there with it.   This extends to things like hijab/niqab/prayer/fasting... and everything in between.

    It is rare to find a Muslim who would disagree with those tenants. What you will find is people who
    1. Include/exclude various hadiths/texts in a matter consistent with their morality.  Most modern Muslim women for example will ignore all the anti-woman stuff for example.
    2. Assume things are out of context or there is a special reason for something. For example, Mohamed at 50 marrying 6 year old Aisha will often be excused by saying, she was so super smart and he wanted someone pure to continue his message. Or things like slavery are talked about as improving the condition of slaves, even if it is very prevalent...

  • Student with questions
     Reply #23 - September 13, 2013, 07:16 PM

    Thanks for linking the book and articles. I only glanced at a few so far. I will tackle a few more today as it is my day off.

    Both points of view I have heard is Islam is not just a religion but a way of life, laws, customs, human rights, banking system, etc. To put it simply its the end all be all of everything. All these different idea and systems are due to the various schools of Islamic thought. These schools of thought develop all these concepts using the Quran as a base. I guess that is why in certain views can never change as it would go against the Quran, or at least interpretations of the Quran that are more documented by Hadiths and early work from various schools of thought. As I said Islam taught to me is as you said, pretty much everything anyone will do or face in life and after death.

    I can understand many people will reinterpret their religion to fit with modern times. Although from my experience Christians do not deny actions of God in the OT such as the eradication of various ethnic groups. Mostly I just hear a response that those people deserved it due to their own actions so it was "good" that God exterminated these people by his hand or by his "chosen" people. In the case of the OT most of these verse can be completely ignored due to the new covenant. Yet with the Quran verses talking about wife beating for example just baffle me. I see the two steps leading up to it are fine; talking to a wife then removing yourself from the home. However the last option, beating a wife, is reinterpreted to mean beat her with a small stick or feather. To me this is just silly. The first two steps would have a greater chance at success than the humorous image of a man beating someone with a feather. Maybe the idea is to win a wife over using comedy?

    When it comes to truth I look try to look at the Quran and Islam the same way I look at the other Abrahamic religions. I go to the older sources and work regarding these sources. Modern views just seem like rationalization in light of the modern world. If complementary sources, and I use the word loosely, hold certain views that are now being ignored I question the modern views even more.

    Am I incorrect in the view that Islam is supposed to be the end all be all of everything past, present and futu
    Thanks for linking the book and articles. I only glanced at a few so far. I will tackle a few more today as it is my day off.

    Both points of view I have heard is Islam is not just a religion but a way of life, laws, customs, human rights, banking system, etc. To put it simply its the end all be all of everything. All these different idea and systems are due to the various schools of Islamic thought. These schools of thought develop all these concepts using the Quran as a base. I guess that is why in certain views can never change as it would go against the Quran, or at least interpretations of the Quran that are more documented by Hadiths and early work from various schools of thought. As I said Islam taught to me is as you said, pretty much everything anyone will do or face in life and after death.

    I can understand many people will reinterpret their religion to fit with modern times. Although from my experience Christians do not deny actions of God in the OT such as the eradication of various ethnic groups. Mostly I just hear a response that those people deserved it due to their own actions so it was "good" that God exterminated these people by his hand or by his "chosen" people. In the case of the OT most of these verse can be completely ignored due to the new covenant. Yet with the Quran verses talking about wife beating for example just baffle me. I see the two steps leading up to it are fine; talking to a wife then removing yourself from the home. However the last option, beating a wife, is reinterpreted to mean beat her with a small stick or feather. To me this is just silly. The first two steps would have a greater chance at success than the humorous image of a man beating someone with a feather. Maybe the idea is to win a wife over using comedy?

    When it comes to truth I look try to look at the Quran and Islam the same way I look at the other Abrahamic religions. I go to the older sources and work regarding these sources. Modern views just seem like rationalization in light of the modern world. If complementary sources, and I use the word loosely, hold certain views that are now being ignored I question the modern views even more.

    Am I incorrect in the view that Islam is supposed to be the end all be all of everything past, present and future?



    The difference between the violence in the Quran and violence in the Bible is the literary style and context. Also the Bible does not have extensive commentary and extra religious texts like the Quran.

  • Student with questions
     Reply #24 - September 13, 2013, 07:18 PM

    Kudos to Scamper
  • Student with questions
     Reply #25 - September 13, 2013, 07:43 PM

    Kudos to everybody Smiley
  • Student with questions
     Reply #26 - September 13, 2013, 09:09 PM

     Smiley
  • Student with questions
     Reply #27 - September 14, 2013, 09:16 AM

    Thanks for linking the book and articles. I only glanced at a few so far. I will tackle a few more today as it is my day off.


    Those links are more about the origins of Islam - so I'm not sure if that's exactly what you're looking for. If you're thinking about buying the Tom Holland book there was a long thread about it that might help you decide:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=20186.0

    A few more links along the same lines:

    Peter von Sivers: The Islamic origins debate goes public

    Toby Lester: What is the Koran?

    Gabriel Said Reynolds: The Qur'an in its historical context

  • Student with questions
     Reply #28 - September 14, 2013, 02:46 PM

    that sense of belonging can definitely be yearned for. Yet, it can be found just as easily in political groups, other religions...

    Japanese religion strikes me as being more about belonging to nature, history, society than anything much else. It certainly ain't religious in terms a monotheist would recognise.
  • Student with questions
     Reply #29 - September 14, 2013, 02:57 PM

    Deleted.

    Irrelevant crap written in crotchety mood.
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