my second apostacy

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- Cornflower
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my second apostacy
OP - November 18, 2013, 12:28 AM

I was thinking today how this is my second, and hopefully last with no "returns", apostacy. The difference is that the first time around I stopped praying and left all the religious obligations even though faith in god hadn't left me completely. I was just fed up and wondered why god asked so much of me and wanted me to sacrifice everything even though he proclaimed he didn't even need my worship.

This time around, after spending the five last years studying Islam under different scholars and brodening my views, I have come to the conclusion that Islam is no more true than any other religion and that it is incompatible with human rights, equality and individuality. This conclusion is based on Islams very core texts; Islam is inherently sexist and opressive towards everyone who do not submit to its shackling ideology.

This apostacy, in contrast with my first, feels liberating. I am content and happy for my disbelief. How has your journey looked like and are you happy to have lost faith?

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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Reply #1 - November 18, 2013, 12:58 AM

Our journeys are similar. How old were you when you first left?

"Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

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Reply #2 - November 18, 2013, 01:13 AM

here's an alternative, how about choosing to practice a better version of islam than the one you've experienced? no-one is forcing you to be sexist or oppress others as an individual muslim.
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Reply #3 - November 18, 2013, 01:18 AM

If you deviate from the core texts of the religion then it no longer becomes Islam, but something else entirely. So, I ask you, if you are going to do that, why even bother sticking with the label "Islam"?

"Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

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Reply #4 - November 18, 2013, 01:23 AM

Quote from: movingfeet on November 18, 2013, 01:18 AM
If you deviate from the core texts of the religion then it no longer becomes Islam, but something else entirely. So, I ask you, if you are going to do that, why even bother sticking with the label "Islam"?

Exactly.
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Reply #5 - November 18, 2013, 01:34 AM

Quote from: movingfeet on November 18, 2013, 01:18 AM
If you deviate from the core texts of the religion then it no longer becomes Islam, but something else entirely. So, I ask you, if you are going to do that, why even bother sticking with the label "Islam"?

that's a pretty rigid view of islam, ie it's not authentic unless it has oppression and inequality in it
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Reply #6 - November 18, 2013, 01:35 AM

Not my fault that that's what's written in the text.

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Reply #7 - November 18, 2013, 01:43 AM

Quote from: someguy on November 18, 2013, 01:34 AM
that's a pretty rigid view of islam, ie it's not authentic unless it has oppression and inequality in it

With respect, that's not what was said.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #8 - November 18, 2013, 05:58 AM

@cornflower
I was in despair with other things in my life when I slowly de-converted. I'm a much happier person now. I don't worry about other people burning in hell, I don't worry if I miss a prayer, and I never have to worry about my own fate in the end times. So in short I'm happier and I think most ex muslims are happier as well.

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Reply #9 - November 18, 2013, 11:26 AM

Quote from: someguy on November 18, 2013, 01:34 AM
that's a pretty rigid view of islam, ie it's not authentic unless it has oppression and inequality in it

No, it is not Islam if you deviate from its actual religious texts. Even standing alone without the horrible ahadeeth, the Quran is preblematic. Since the Quran claims to be allah's litteral words, I find it intellectually disshonest to pick and choose from it. It obviously isn't divine. I don't ned religion to find happiness, joy and fullfillment in life.

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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Reply #10 - November 18, 2013, 11:29 AM

Quote from: movingfeet on November 18, 2013, 12:58 AM
Our journeys are similar. How old were you when you first left?

First time around I was 19, 2 years after my conversion. I just turned 26 and I'm happier than ever, minus the anxiety and stress related to my fundamentalist husband...

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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Reply #11 - November 18, 2013, 05:13 PM

Did you convert because of your husband? That would be more in line with my mother who converted because of my father. I can detail that journey for you if you want. I was born into the religion and I started to question at 15-16 years old. By the time that I was 22, I had reached the point where I no longer called myself Muslim, but still believed in a higher power of some sort. At 23, I became an agnostic. Now at the threshold of being 30, I call myself a free thinker on a good day and the high priestess of apathy on a bad day.

"Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

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Reply #12 - November 18, 2013, 06:27 PM

No, definitely not. I was actually 18 and not 19. I got to know my husband long after I had "returned" to the faith. I converted even before knowing a single Muslim. Don't know if I'd had a different opinion if I had seen the actual implementation of Islam before reading the white washed dawah material.

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Re: my second apostacy
Reply #13 - November 18, 2013, 06:27 PM

Quote from: someguy on November 18, 2013, 01:13 AM
here's an alternative, how about choosing to practice a better version of islam than the one you've experienced? no-one is forcing you to be sexist or oppress others as an individual muslim.

Given sufficient mass maybe, but that would require for one to capitulate to the fact that Cartesian scepticism, leading onto a Heideggerian and Deleuzian inward turn is the only game in town. Sort of like Red shi'ism, only far more radical and solipsistic.
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Reply #14 - November 18, 2013, 10:30 PM

I'd reply with something useful but your philosophy jargon is getting in the way - simple english for my simple mind please.
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Reply #15 - November 18, 2013, 10:34 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on November 18, 2013, 11:26 AM
No, it is not Islam if you deviate from its actual religious texts. Even standing alone without the horrible ahadeeth, the Quran is preblematic.

I disagree, it's just a case of putting things in context... even so, plenty uneducated people live as muslims without worrying about intellectual honesty phantoms.
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Reply #16 - November 18, 2013, 11:07 PM

Islam is not about relativism and "context". On the the contrary. Islam is a, self-proclaimed, universal religion for all people and all times.

I am not uneducated, and intellectual honesty is quite important for both me and others. Don't know what you mean by "phantoms" though.

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Reply #17 - November 18, 2013, 11:14 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on November 18, 2013, 11:07 PM
Islam is not about relativism and "context". On the the contrary. Islam is a self-proclaimed, universal religion for all people and all times.

I am not uneducated, and intellectual honesty is quite important for both me and others. Don't know what you mean by "phantoms" though.

No It is not self proclaimed. It is Proclaimed by Allah through Gabriel to Prophet Muhammad(PBUH).

Prophet Muhammad(sallallahu alaihi wasallam, PBUH) was just a messenger..

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Reply #18 - November 18, 2013, 11:30 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on November 18, 2013, 11:07 PM
Islam is not about relativism and "context". On the the contrary. Islam is a, self-proclaimed, universal religion for all people and all times.

This is the problem, Someguy, an insurmountable one to my simple mind. (Simple minds of the world unite.)

Christianity is a man-made religion, but at least it has a second act that offers a very different vision (and plenty of wiggle room). It's almost if its designers took a look at the Old Testament and realised it was a house built on desert sand.
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Reply #19 - November 18, 2013, 11:35 PM

And of course islam brings it round old testament style again.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #20 - November 18, 2013, 11:50 PM

Quote from: someguy on November 18, 2013, 10:34 PM
I disagree, it's just a case of putting things in context... even so, plenty uneducated people live as muslims without worrying about intellectual honesty phantoms.

some guy has the point there, Indeed 100s of millions of Muslims .uneducated and educated live their life without worrying about intellectual honesty of Islam. What many people including me call it as CULTURAL Muslims or cultural Islam. They never read and never care about what is there Islamic scriptures.. And they all live wonderful happy humane life as any other religious folks live. Their Islam starts and ends with few rituals/praying and family life.. They are all busy with what to cook and how to feed their children..

Quote from: David on November 18, 2013, 11:30 PM
This is the problem, Someguy, an insurmountable one to my simple mind. (Simple minds of the world unite.)

Quote
Christianity is a man-made religion, but at least it has a second act that offers a very different vision (and plenty of wiggle room). It's almost if its designers took a look at the Old Testament and realised it was a house built on desert sand.

well David., the moment you speak all that in that highlighted quote means YOU ARE NOT A SIMPLE MINDED GUY...

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #21 - November 18, 2013, 11:55 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on November 18, 2013, 11:07 PM
Islam is not about relativism and "context".

Any divine message has to pass through the filter of human experience - specific time and place is addressed in many instances.

That doesn't invalidate it's authenticity but it would be a mistake to make assumptions based on the types of issues being addressed - extract the principles and apply with understanding.
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Reply #22 - November 18, 2013, 11:58 PM

Quote from: someguy on November 18, 2013, 11:55 PM
Any divine message................

what divine and what "divine" message are you talking about someguy ? Why anything should be divine?? I mean that word is the most useless and most abused word..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #23 - November 19, 2013, 12:05 AM

Quote from: someguy on November 18, 2013, 11:55 PM
extract the principles and apply with understanding.

I couldn't agree more. But why do you need to do this through the filter of a 'God'?
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Reply #24 - November 19, 2013, 12:27 AM

Quote from: someguy on November 18, 2013, 01:13 AM
here's an alternative, how about choosing to practice a better version of islam than the one you've experienced? no-one is forcing you to be sexist or oppress others as an individual muslim.

You cannot remove sexism from Islam. It is hardcoded into the Shariah. Muslims cannot be individual. They submit their will to another, and allow their choices to be made for them, following directions in all things, big and small.

Don't let Hitler have the street.
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Reply #25 - November 19, 2013, 12:27 AM

Quote from: movingfeet on November 18, 2013, 01:18 AM
If you deviate from the core texts of the religion then it no longer becomes Islam, but something else entirely. So, I ask you, if you are going to do that, why even bother sticking with the label "Islam"?

I cannot tell you how stupid I feel explaining this to progressives. It's as if they were children.

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Reply #26 - November 19, 2013, 12:28 AM

three you just basically reworded my last comment lol http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=25296.msg719248#msg719248

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #27 - November 19, 2013, 12:29 AM

Quote from: Cornflower on November 18, 2013, 06:27 PM
No, definitely not. I was actually 18 and not 19. I got to know my husband long after I had "returned" to the faith. I converted even before knowing a single Muslim. Don't know if I'd had a different opinion if I had seen the actual implementation of Islam before reading the white washed dawah material.

White washed dawah material. That is an excellent way to explain apologist lit.

Don't let Hitler have the street.
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Reply #28 - November 19, 2013, 12:29 AM

Quote from: David on November 19, 2013, 12:05 AM
I couldn't agree more. But why do you need to do this through the filter of a 'God'?

humanity is the filter...

metaphors are as pointless as answering "but why" questions... passes the time though.
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Reply #29 - November 19, 2013, 12:31 AM

Quote from: someguy on November 18, 2013, 10:34 PM
I disagree, it's just a case of putting things in context... even so, plenty uneducated people live as muslims without worrying about intellectual honesty phantoms.

Yeah. Let's put this in context. Plenty of uneducated people live AS Muslims? What are you talking about?

Don't let Hitler have the street.
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