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Theme Changer

 Topic: Why atheists fail to persuade theists

 (Read 36411 times)
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  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #30 - December 22, 2013, 09:12 PM

    I think you need to replace all the uses of Theist and theism with Deist and deism. The Theist concept of God has many distinct differences than the version you are talking about. Philosophical arguments are merely additions to the theism concept of God. Sure many of these philosophical arguments do not have evidence for or against, hence why these are restricted to philosophy and not science. However many of the actions taken by theistic God(s) can be tested using the scientific method. Prayer for example is a major theme with the three Abrahamic God(s). We can test prayer to see if these indeed net a result. Many followers claim God answered their prayers, this is something we can indeed test. Usually such test shows prayer is nothing more than personal experience devoid of any positive results. People link the closest positive event with the prayer in an attempt to legitimize prayer actually works. Simply put correlation does not imply causation.

    Person A is sick and prays to become well, or healed. Person A become well. All other factors be it medical, biological, etc are discounted due to the belief prayer works. Likewise I could assume by not stepping on a crack will result in not breaking my mother's back. In both cases actions result in what appears to be confirmation of both views. However the moment prayer does not work, it has been falsified. Likewise by stepping on a crack which doesn't result in my mother's back being broken my view is falsified. Again correlation does not imply causation.

    Also theistic God(s) takes direct action in the world which is documented in many religious texts. If these events are false one can assume the concept of God presented by a brand of theism is incorrect or their texts are in error. However these texts are used as the foundation of theistic religions not philosophy. Philosophy is merely the additional arguments which sounds great to the believer but completely fails to link a philosophical concept of God with the theistic concept of God. These two concepts share attributes but only the theistic version is the one that actively takes part in the world. Be it Moses, Noah, Abraham, Mohammad, Jesus, etc. Once these texts no longer represent history and reality any such foundation is undermined and can be questioned. If God did indeed flood the world there would be evidence of such an event. If there is no evidence I can dismiss part of the theistic claim. This is why religion has continually reinvented itself. What was once taken literal is not longer literal. However by doing so the Theist undermine their own religion be it texts, doctrine, dogma, etc. The believer has shown their religions are man made tailored to fit the current norms of a society. For example slavery was fully condoned by the 3 A's. There are regulation for slavery in each text. Slavery was accepted by religion and defended by religion. Flip forward in time slavery is now seen as immoral so the believer reads such norms of society into their text. Yet the text themselves are completely devoid of condemnation of slavery. For an all knowing being there should be at least mention of the fact that in a few hundred years people would be appalled at the idea of enslaving their fellow man. For a God that is unable change the course of history for the betterment of mankind, when all texts supposedly serve this purpose, shows most theistic God(s) are inept or fiction. Considering the attributes assigned to theses God(s) it should not be inept so to my conclusion is it is a fictional character.

    My apologies if I took this in a different direction but I feel that you are combining theism's God(s) and philosophical God(s) into one and the same. This is not the case.


    Also, this post should be given consideration when debating the views of an agnostic atheist.

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #31 - December 22, 2013, 09:25 PM

    There are contradictory theories of evolution but we're still expected to believe the theory of evolution is correct.
    So really no problem there.
    As more and more knowledge and understanding is acquired theories change.
    Some theories turn out to have not deen very good at all. But at one time they had been rather useful.
    So what?!?
    The seeking of accurate knowledge is in the end of possibly of most importance

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #32 - December 22, 2013, 09:28 PM

    I would accept the theory that had the most explanatory power. Or maybe I wouldn't. If a question is so vague and far reaching that there are rival theories each with justification, I'd just conclude the question is irresolvable at this point. But when is anything like that in reality?

    If a theory is vague, then a useful criticism is that it's vague, hence it's refuted.

    If something is true, all the sciences will converge upon it. If one theory has overwhelming evidence in favour of it and has better explanatory power, obviously I would accept it.

    That would be a mistake. You should have a refutation of one of the rival theories. I gave an example of this in an earlier post in this thread regarding the theory that *All swans are white*. If you found 10 white swans, and 1 black swan, does the 10 white swans of evidence "overwhelm" the 1 black swan of evidence? No. So the *amount* of evidence doesn't matter. The evidence either refutes the theory, or it doesn't. It cannot make a positive claim.

    And if both theories are criticised?

    I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean unrefuted criticisms?

    If you have 2 rival theories, and both theories have unrefuted criticisms of them, then both theories are refuted.

    In your own novelty model, where you've defined evidence as such, sure. But that definition of evidence is not currency outside of your personal model. It's just an ad hoc component of your model. There is such a thing as supporting evidence outside of your model, in the real world.

    It's not my model. It's the scientific method. It goes like this:

    (1) (a) Create a testable theory. (b) Design an experiment that could refute it.

    (2) (a) Run the experiment and collect the result -- which is physical evidence. (b) Interpret the result.

    If (2b) rules out the theory, then go back to (1a) and create another testable theory — maybe from the refuted testable theory by changing a part of it so that the new version doesn’t contradict the existing evidence.

    Note that every step is fallible. So you want to critically question every step. So for (2a), that means that the experiment is repeated many times and by many people.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #33 - December 22, 2013, 09:31 PM

    There are contradictory theories of evolution but we're still expected to believe the theory of evolution is correct.

    Can you name two?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #34 - December 22, 2013, 09:32 PM

    There are contradictory theories of evolution but we're still expected to believe the theory of evolution is correct.

    The concept of evolution has been proven, the only questionable things in theories are "how" "why" and "when".

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Re: Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #35 - December 22, 2013, 09:36 PM

    This isn't correct. If the question is "does God exist?" and there is no evidence of it, concluding that the question is irresolvable at this point is not wrong. There is no theory to refute at that stage.

    No. Every idea solves a problem. So what problem does your god idea solve?

    If the problem your god idea solves is: What created the universe?

    Then your proposed solution is: God created the universe.

    And my refutation is: Your proposed solution doesn't work to solve your problem because all it does is raise another problem of the same type (what created god?).

    So your proposed solution doesn't work to solve your problem. Hence your idea is refuted.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #36 - December 22, 2013, 09:37 PM

    Can you name two?


    http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm
    http://anthro.palomar.edu/synthetic/default.htm

    I love this site.


    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #37 - December 22, 2013, 09:38 PM

    There is no contradiction in that. It's simply stating that the person thinks that most likely there is no god, but they can't be sure because there is no real evidence to prove or disprove the god theory. It's the most logical stance to take actually.

    I didn't say that there is a contradiction in the idea that there is no god.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #38 - December 22, 2013, 09:39 PM

    There are contradictory theories of evolution but we're still expected to believe the theory of evolution is correct.

    The concept of evolution has been proven, the only questionable things in theories are "how" "why" and "when".


    Those are two separate theories and you're calling them one theory. I don't understand what you're doing.
  • Re: Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #39 - December 22, 2013, 09:41 PM

    If a theory is vague, then a useful criticism is that it's vague, hence it's refuted.

    Wow, as easy as that.

    That would be a mistake. You should have a refutation of one of the rival theories.

    Who should? I want evidence and justification if I'm to believe a person who says "God exists". I might challenge it, if I'm in the mood to. But there is no obligation to do so. It is for them to demonstrate to me and justify.

    If you have 2 rival theories, and both theories have unrefuted criticisms of them, then both theories are refuted.

    So if the criticism is "it's vague" the theory is refuted, and the refutation of that criticism is "no it's not vague", is the theory then unrefuted again?

    This kind of superficial ping-pong is not very compelling. It does not correspond to how humans in conversation actually behave or how conviction is formed.

    It's not my model. It's the scientific method.

    But the scientific method is not the only way we acquire knowledge, nor the only territory we operate on evidence and justification. If your argument was that the scientific method operates on falsifiability, you'd get little resistance. But I thought your argument was about convincing people, in general, which would open the field up with all kinds of degrees of certainty, all kinds of intellectual tools and techniques, all kinds of appeals and cajolery.  

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #40 - December 22, 2013, 09:42 PM

    It wasn't me who originally wrote the bold text. I never stated that they were one and the same.

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #41 - December 22, 2013, 09:44 PM

    Are you saying Popper's category of metaphysical - not refutable - was incorrect?


    Great piece of literature.

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #42 - December 22, 2013, 09:48 PM

    Who should? I want evidence and justification if I'm to believe a person who says "God exists". I might challenge it, if I'm in the mood to. But there is no obligation to do so. It is for them to demonstrate to me and justify.

    Huh? I already told you that it's impossible to get evidence to refute "God exists" -- because the god idea doesn't many any testable predictions, which means we can't make an experiment that could rule it out. (here i'm talking about the hard god claim, the one that doesn't make any testable predictions)
    So if the criticism is "it's vague" the theory is refuted, and the refutation of that criticism is "no it's not vague", is the theory then unrefuted again?

    No because "no it's not vague" is not a criticism. A criticism is an explanation of a flaw in an idea. "No it's not vague" is an unexplained assertion. That it's unexplained, is a useful criticism of it, so it's refuted.
    This kind of superficial ping-pong is not very compelling. It does not correspond to how humans in conversation actually behave or how conviction is formed.

    Your unargued conclusion is not persuasive.
    But the scientific method is not the only way we acquire knowledge, nor the only territory we operate on evidence and justification. If your argument was that the scientific method operates on falsifiability, you'd get little resistance. But I thought your argument was about convincing people, in general, which would open the field up with all kinds of degrees of certainty, all kinds of intellectual tools and techniques, all kinds of appeals and cajolery.  

    I'm saying that ALL ideas are open to criticism. And I'm saying that if you have an unrefuted criticism of an idea, then that idea is refuted.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #43 - December 22, 2013, 09:50 PM

    Quote
    I'm saying that ALL ideas are open to criticism


    Yup.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Re: Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #44 - December 22, 2013, 09:50 PM

    No. Every idea solves a problem. So what problem does your god idea solve?

    If the problem your god idea solves is: What created the universe?

    Then your proposed solution is: God created the universe.

    And my refutation is: Your proposed solution doesn't work to solve your problem because all it does is raise another problem of the same type (what created god?).

    So your proposed solution doesn't work to solve your problem. Hence your idea is refuted.

    That doesn't refute it. That just ignores the answer to one question and asks a different question entirely.

    Let's say an architect exists. It's possible to answer the question of whether or not a construct was created by that architect. One does not need to explain how the architect came to be in order to answer that first question.

    Now, if the question was how did everything come to be? then yes, the problem wouldn't be solved, since the architect is part of the set of things that comprise everything. But how did everything come to be is a different question to who created this one things in the set of all things.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #45 - December 22, 2013, 09:51 PM

    Are you saying Popper's category of metaphysical - not refutable - was incorrect?


    Popper never said that. He was talking about falsifiability -- which only applies to scientific theories.

    A metaphysical theory is not a scientific theory, so it's not falsifiable.

    But a metaphysical theory is still refutable. A refutation does not require physical evidence.
  • Re: Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #46 - December 22, 2013, 09:51 PM


    I mean, two opposing theories of evolution that are still in contention.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #47 - December 22, 2013, 09:52 PM

    That doesn't refute it. That just ignores the answer to one question and asks a different question entirely.

    Let's say an architect exists. It's possible to answer the question of whether or not a construct was created by that architect. One does not need to explain how the architect came to be in order to answer that first question.

    Now, if the question was how did everything come to be? then yes, the problem wouldn't be solved, since the architect is part of the set of things that comprise everything. But how did everything come to be is a different question to who created this one things in the set of all things.

    I'm not clear on what problem you're talking about. What problem does your god claim solve? (I don't mean YOU specifically. I mean whatever god claim you want to talk about right now.)
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #48 - December 22, 2013, 09:54 PM

    I mean, two opposing theories of evolution that are still in contention.

    There are 2 possibilities:

    (1) One of them is wrong

    OR

    (2) Both of them are wrong (which leaves the possibility of a 3rd one which no one has thought of yet).
  • Re: Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #49 - December 22, 2013, 09:59 PM

    Huh? I already told you that it's impossible to get evidence to refute "God exists" -- because the god idea doesn't many any testable predictions, which means we can't make an experiment that could rule it out. (here i'm talking about the hard god claim, the one that doesn't make any testable predictions)

    I'm not even sure what you're talking about anymore.

    No because "no it's not vague" is not a criticism. A criticism is an explanation of a flaw in an idea. "No it's not vague" is an unexplained assertion. That it's unexplained, is a useful criticism of it, so it's refuted.Your unargued conclusion is not persuasive.

    The idea that any old criticism is good enough to stamp REFUTED on a theory is not one I find compelling. If one's beliefs and convictions about the world, or the theories and philosophies one subscribes to, are so fickle and uncommitted that they are likely to do a complete reversal at every criticism, I'm not sure it would be fruitful to try and make a convincing case anyway.

    I'm saying that ALL ideas are open to criticism.

    This was never in dispute.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #50 - December 22, 2013, 10:01 PM

    I mean, two opposing theories of evolution that are still in contention.


    Hard to stay. I'm not familiar with all of them to give that kind of answer. Would require more reading. My gut says no, but I could be wrong.

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #51 - December 22, 2013, 10:02 PM

    The idea that any old criticism is good enough to stamp REFUTED on a theory is not one I find compelling. If one's beliefs and convictions about the world, or the theories and philosophies one subscribes to, are so fickle and uncommitted that they are likely to do a complete reversal at every criticism, I'm not sure it would be fruitful to try and make a convincing case anyway.


    Well, what other way do you know about how to determine if an idea is true or false? Shouldn't you use your best judgement? Or should you defer to the authority of other people?
  • Re: Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #52 - December 22, 2013, 10:04 PM

    I'm not clear on what problem you're talking about. What problem does your god claim solve? (I don't mean YOU specifically. I mean whatever god claim you want to talk about right now.)

    The first problem you raised was: What created the universe? If it is established that a creator god created the universe, it is not necessarily required for one to then answer what created the creator in order for the first question to be answered.

    Of course, one is entitled to ask what created the creator. It follows that one would ask such a question to get to the real heart of the matter. But being unable to answer that follow up question does not necessarily mean one forfeits the answer to the first question.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #53 - December 22, 2013, 10:07 PM

    Well, what other way do you know about how to determine if an idea is true or false? Shouldn't you use your best judgement? Or should you defer to the authority of other people?

    In matters of medicine or science and the like, I defer to experts. In general interpersonal matters, I use my best judgement.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #54 - December 22, 2013, 10:09 PM

    Ishina said:

    //In matters of medicine or science and the like, I defer to experts. In general interpersonal matters, I use my best judgement.//

    You mean that if a doctor told you have need to do life-threatening surgery, you wouldn't get a second opinion?

    And if you got a second opinion that rivaled the first one, how do you decide? Would you ask the doctors to explain themselves?
  • Re: Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #55 - December 22, 2013, 10:13 PM

    You mean that if a doctor told you have need to do life-threatening surgery, you wouldn't get a second opinion?

    I certainly would.

    And if you got a second opinion that rivaled the first one, how do you decide?

    I have no idea. I imagine I'd wrestle with such an important decision for a long time. I have no way of really knowing what I'd do until I'm in that situation.

    Would you ask the doctors to explain themselves?

    Of course.

    You have used up your allotted amount of peripheral questions.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #56 - December 22, 2013, 10:17 PM

    Ishina:

    So what would you do with the rival explanations by your doctors? Wouldn't you use your own judgement?

    How would you do that? Would you be critically questioning both of them?
  • Re: Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #57 - December 22, 2013, 10:20 PM

    So what would you do with the rival explanations by your doctors? Wouldn't you use your own judgement?

    How would you do that? Would you be critically questioning both of them?

    If you want a more thorough answer than "depends", I'll need more context.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #58 - December 22, 2013, 10:21 PM

    The first problem you raised was: What created the universe? If it is established that a creator god created the universe, it is not necessarily required for one to then answer what created the creator in order for the first question to be answered.

    Of course, one is entitled to ask what created the creator. It follows that one would ask such a question to get to the real heart of the matter. But being unable to answer that follow up question does not necessarily mean one forfeits the answer to the first question.

    I don't understand. Why do you think that "God created the universe" is a satisfactory answer to the question "What created the universe"?

    It raises lots of questions for me, like "What is god?" "How does god work?" and lot's of other ones.

    Are you saying these kinds of questions don't come up for you?
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #59 - December 22, 2013, 10:22 PM

    In the realm of science, if a work is not peer reviewed, then its validity is severely suspect. In the case of doctors and second opinions, the facts won't change, but it's your body and you choose what to do with it. Not an accurate comparison in my opinion.

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
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