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 Topic: Why atheists fail to persuade theists

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  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #210 - December 25, 2013, 06:53 PM
    Quote
    Scientism! finmad


    http://www.ted.com/conversations/9998/science_is_a_religion.html

    Quote
    I said that the scientific method only applies to scientific theories. And that not all one's ideas are scientific theories.


    But everything can be analyzed via science, so I'm not sure why you're saying this?  Can you give me something that cannot be analyzed via science (which is simply a method to determine the truth of reality?)

    "People are organic material beings, and as such we can be studied on an organic material basis. There are no questions that are "beyond science" that are not also beyond every other means of inquiry. If a question cannot be answered by science then it simply cannot be answered in any objective way, and indeed there are such questions, but these questions are no more capable of being "answered" by religion."
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #211 - December 25, 2013, 07:10 PM
    EzraJT said: //Can you give me something that cannot be analyzed via science (which is simply a method to determine the truth of reality?) //

    When you say "reality" do you mean "physical reality" or something else? I'm guessing you mean physical reality.

    Only scientific theories can have the scientific method applied to them.

    A scientific theory is a theory that can, in principle, be ruled out by physical evidence.

    So any theory that cannot, in principle, be ruled out by physical evidence, is not a scientific theory.

    So the scientific method cannot be applied to non-scientific theories.

    To clarify, a scientific theory is a theory that makes testable/falsifiable predictions. And the scientific method is a process of creating (physically) testable/falsifiable theories, and testing them.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #212 - December 25, 2013, 07:28 PM
    Quote
    When you say "reality" do you mean "physical reality" or something else? I'm guessing you mean physical reality.


    As opposed to?
  • Re: Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #213 - December 25, 2013, 10:32 PM
    Quote from: Lynna on December 25, 2013, 06:47 AM
    Np it wouldn't be Geist at all at least not what Wikipedia says about it..


    Hegel wasn't a materialist. Well, not technically, at least.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #214 - December 25, 2013, 11:27 PM
    Quote
    Hegel wasn't a materialist. Well, not technically, at least.


    No but many Hegelians would go on to become prominent materialists.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #215 - December 26, 2013, 12:04 AM
    Yes, I specified that when I expounded upon geist with the diamat comment.
  • Re: Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #216 - December 26, 2013, 08:57 AM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 24, 2013, 09:45 PM
    What's your argument for your conclusion that it's only really relevant in certain scientific circles?

    Since you didn't present your argument, that tells me you don't have one. So you're just assuming.



    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 24, 2013, 09:45 PM
    You haven't understand my point. I'm saying that justification IS IMPOSSIBLE. And that evidence only works in the negative direction, to refute theories -- so evidence does not work in the positive direction, to CHOOSE ONE THEORY OUT OF MANY (aka support).

    In the domain of disagreement and persuasion, formal scientific methodology is not always appropriate. There are all kinds of situations where evidence can be used to support or demonstrate a thing and where justification can be achieved to a person's satisfaction. This is trivially true and I'm not sure why it's such a sticking point. People generally don't view evidence as only a negating asset. And they may even view evidence as a negating asset in certain formal scientific endeavours and use it as a confirming or demonstrative asset in other, wide-ranging endeavours. It doesn't have to be either/or. There is no contradiction in doing both when it is appropriate.

    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 24, 2013, 09:45 PM
    But your method of justification is false. If you disagree, then you can explain why I'm wrong. And if you can't explain why I'm wrong, then why do you disagree with me?

    That was me telling you that my standards are different to yours. It is not a matter for debate. Saying my standards are false is like saying my favourite ice cream flavour is false. Actually, in this case, it's more like "Your ice cream flavour is false. Mine is correct. Prove me wrong!"
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #217 - December 26, 2013, 04:53 PM
    Quote
    Yes, I specified that when I expounded upon geist with the diamat comment.


    Well, I was just explaining why a lot think Hegel was a materialist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegel#Legacy
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #218 - December 27, 2013, 04:19 PM
    Ishina said: //In the domain of disagreement and persuasion, formal scientific methodology is not always appropriate.//

    I didn't claim it was. You've misinterpreted what I said.

    Scientific methodology only applies to scientific theories. Science is the act of creating scientific theories and trying to prove them wrong by experiment.

    As for non-scientific theories, for example moral ideas, we cannot use the scientific method to prove them wrong (since they don't make testable predictions). Instead, we look for contradictions to prove them wrong.


    //There are all kinds of situations where evidence can be used to support or demonstrate a thing and where justification can be achieved to a person's satisfaction.//

    And those are mistakes. If a person has a justification for a theory, and since all ideas are fallible, that means that the justification could be wrong. And let's say that somebody somewhere has a criticism of that justification. In this case, it would be bad for this person to not search for criticism of his justification.

    So my point is, IF somebody searches for criticism of his justification, THEN he's not doing justification. And IF he does't search for criticism for his justification, THEN he could be wrong and he's not even trying to find out if he's wrong, which is bad for him since the idea could be something harmful.


    //This is trivially true and I'm not sure why it's such a sticking point.//

    Why are you assuming that I'm wrong and you're right?


    //People generally don't view evidence as only a negating asset.//

    And they are wrong. Whether or not they know it's wrong doesn't change that.


    //And they may even view evidence as a negating asset in certain formal scientific endeavours and use it as a confirming or demonstrative asset in other, wide-ranging endeavours. It doesn't have to be either/or. There is no contradiction in doing both when it is appropriate.//

    If you think it can work in the positive direction, then please explain a hypothetical example of how it could work.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #219 - December 27, 2013, 04:24 PM
    Ishina said: //That was me telling you that my standards are different to yours. It is not a matter for debate.//

    That doesn't make sense. Do you agree that judges should have the same standard in how they determine whether or not a person is guilty?


    //Saying my standards are false is like saying my favourite ice cream flavour is false. Actually, in this case, it's more like "Your ice cream flavour is false. Mine is correct. Prove me wrong!"//

    No. An ice cream flavor cannot be true of false.

    Ideas that can be true or false are like this:

    - Ishina's favorite ice cream flavor is chocolate.

    - Chocolate ice cream flavor exists.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #220 - December 27, 2013, 05:29 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 27, 2013, 04:19 PM
    As for non-scientific theories, for example moral ideas, we cannot use the scientific method to prove them wrong (since they don't make testable predictions). Instead, we look for contradictions to prove them wrong.

    And we can also justify them to a satisfactory degree through sound reasoning and supporting evidence.

    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 27, 2013, 04:19 PM
    And those are mistakes. If a person has a justification for a theory, and since all ideas are fallible, that means that the justification could be wrong.

    So what? All theories could be wrong. That's already the way of things. Nobody ought to be subscribing to a theory as a "true" thing in the first place. Theories don't really operate on truth, they operate on utility and explanatory power. Our models of understanding can only ever be approximations and should always be subject to revision. We don't have to second guess every move we make in the world, but certainly the more far reaching ideas should not be declared as true in anything other than a colloquial sense of the word truth. "Justification" isn't an absolute, perfect, unconditional concept. It's subjective, variable, often accepted impulsively.

    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 27, 2013, 04:19 PM
    And they are wrong. Whether or not they know it's wrong doesn't change that.

    You don't get to set the standard as to what other people will accept as evidence or insist they must never be persuaded by evidence as a rule. You can't stop people being persuaded proactively by evidence and you don't get to dictate what other people deem justified.

    You're welcome to look for contradictions as your sole method of navigating the world. I'm happy to accept or subscribe to certain things based on the compelling nature of them. Again, this is not matter for debate.

    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 27, 2013, 04:19 PM
    If you think it can work in the positive direction, then please explain a hypothetical example of how it could work.

    For example, you could claim that you've said (typed) a thing, and if I doubted you, you could point to the comment in question as evidence (assuming you were correct and that the words actually existed).
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #221 - December 28, 2013, 01:29 PM
    Ishina said: //You don't get to set the standard as to what other people will accept as evidence or insist they must never be persuaded by evidence as a rule. You can't stop people being persuaded proactively by evidence and you don't get to dictate what other people deem justified.  //

    I didn't claim anything like that. You don't know what I'm talking about.

    There is only one correct scientific method. All other methods that claim to do the same thing, are wrong.

    There is only one correct method of determining the truth. All other methods that claim to do the same thing, are wrong.

    That's all I'm saying. I didn't say that we should make a law that outlaws people from using wrong methods. So I don't know why you're telling me "you can't stop people" from doing wrong things.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #222 - December 28, 2013, 01:30 PM
    Ishina said: //You're welcome to look for contradictions as your sole method of navigating the world.//

    I didn't say I only use contradictions. You don't understand my position.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #223 - December 28, 2013, 01:32 PM
    Ishina said: //For example, you could claim that you've said (typed) a thing, and if I doubted you, you could point to the comment in question as evidence (assuming you were correct and that the words actually existed).//

    So your scientific theory is: Rami typed a specific thing X in thread Y.

    And your experiment is: Find the thread Y, and see if X doesn't exist.

    If the result goes negative, then the theory is refuted. Right?

    If the result goes positive, then the theory is not refuted. Right?
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #224 - December 28, 2013, 01:37 PM
    You have a very low bar for 'scientific theory'.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #225 - December 28, 2013, 02:12 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 28, 2013, 01:32 PM
    So your scientific theory is: Rami typed a specific thing X in thread Y.

    And your experiment is: Find the thread Y, and see if X doesn't exist.

    If the result goes negative, then the theory is refuted. Right?

    If the result goes positive, then the theory is not refuted. Right?


    The scientific method is predicated on language. Otherwise it would conceivably be impossible to cognise anything to do with the world. Ergo, concepts such as truth are contingent upon social consensus (or language games, as Wittgenstein put it).

    Wittgenstein, himself a son of the logical positivists, utterly deconstructs their spurious, and presumptive, philosophy. This is why I believe that Wittgenstein has more in common with Western Marxism than he does the analytic school of philosophy, which is in a bit of a cul de sac, really.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #226 - December 28, 2013, 02:21 PM
    Ishina

    So you're just going to ignore my questions?

    We were talking about your hypothetical situation where evidence supports a theory. And then you just stopped the discussion without a conclusion. Why?

    Why even start the discussion with me if you don't want to reach a conclusion?
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #227 - December 28, 2013, 02:26 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 28, 2013, 01:32 PM

    So your scientific theory .....

    And your experiment is.....

     I was under the impression that I was going to learn something from the discussion., because of this  "Why atheists fail to persuade theists" and RamiRustom  I was hoping that I will learn from your posts    the technique/s "how I can  persuade these  theists who come from variety of cultures/religions "that their cultural/religious/BOOKISH theistic  holy horse  shit  is bull shit""

    But what I am learning is to fight and try to score a point in an argument.   That is a terrible disappoint to me specially with your background and knowledge . I think you are not doing justice to the word "Ex-Muslim" you use to represent yourself..

    Correct me if I am wrong RamiR.. and take back thread..take back your baby.. and show the right path "how to  persuade theists and tell them their path is not right" .
    Quote
    "It is the nature of the ego to take, and the nature of the spirit to share."..

    “What soberness conceals, Drunkenness reveals”

    “The heart that truly loves never forgets.”

    “A true friend laughs at your stories even when they're not so good, and sympathizes with your troubles even when they're not so bad”

    “Those who do not read are no better off than those who cannot.”

    “It is prosperity that gives us friends, adversity that proves them.”

    Who makes himself a sheep will be eaten by the wolves”

    Those are all quotes from Proverb., and some of them are useful in this thread And I want to find such quotes in Quran.. but so far No luck  Cry Cry

    Help me RamiRustom help me.,   The discussion on a forum like this should not be the test of egos..

    with best wishes and happy new year to you  
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #228 - December 28, 2013, 02:51 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 28, 2013, 02:21 PM
    We were talking about your hypothetical situation where evidence supports a theory. And then you just stopped the discussion without a conclusion. Why?

    Because I don't find the conversation very stimulating.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #229 - December 28, 2013, 03:17 PM
    well let me add these Peter Boghossian  tubes that are relevant to this thread..

     A Manual For Creating Atheists (A radio discussion by Dr. Peter Boghossian)

    Richard Dawkins in conversation with Peter Boghossian

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNcC866sm7s
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #230 - December 31, 2013, 02:15 PM
    yeezevee

    //But what I am learning is to fight and try to score a point in an argument.   That is a terrible disappoint to me specially with your background and knowledge . I think you are not doing justice to the word "Ex-Muslim" you use to represent yourself.. //

    Winning arguments is not the same as searching for the truth. You are conflating the two.


    //RamiRustom  I was hoping that I will learn from your posts    the technique/s "how I can  persuade these  theists who come from variety of cultures/religions "that their cultural/religious/BOOKISH theistic  holy horse  shit  is bull shit""//

    You're the first one who has asked me this question. If you were interested in it, you should have asked it from the beginning.

    If you want to persuade somebody of an idea, and let's say you already know that they have a rival idea that they believe, first you'll have to understand WHY they believe the rival idea. Once they tell you that, then you can criticize their reasons.

    Most discussions between atheist and theist don't involve either person trying to find out why the other guy believes what he believes. They are not trying to figure out the other guy's reasoning.

    So, one way to move forward in a discussion is to ask: What problem does your god claim solve? i.e. What question does your god claim answer? i.e. Why do you believe in god?

    Note that lots of theists have more than one reason for their belief in god. So just working on one of them is not enough.

    Another thing to consider is that your own reasoning during the debate is suspect. You are fallible. So don't assume that you're right about things. Don't assume you understand the other guy's ideas (i.e. check your interpretations, and ask the other guy to check them too).

    Another thing I notice is that people get mad if other people don't understand them. This is unwise. Getting mad doesn't solve any worthwhile problems. It's actually counter-productive to one's goal of helping the other person understand. So as soon as you get mad, you should criticize your feeling (as a means of stopping it).

    Another thing I notice is that people care about other people they are discussing with. By caring I mean that they are invested in the discussion, and they seem to not know when they should bail on a discussion. I bail when I find out that the other guy has no intention to have a rational discussion with me. [rational = willing to change his mind if he finds out that his idea is criticized]

    PS, if you want to do hypothetical examples with me, you can play the role of the theist.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #231 - December 31, 2013, 02:23 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 31, 2013, 02:15 PM
    yeezevee

    //But what I am learning is to fight and try to score a point in an argument.   That is a terrible disappoint to me specially with your background and knowledge . I think you are not doing justice to the word "Ex-Muslim" you use to represent yourself.. //

    Winning arguments is not the same as searching for the truth. You are conflating the two.


    //RamiRustom  I was hoping that I will learn from your posts    the technique/s "how I can  persuade these  theists who come from variety of cultures/religions "that their cultural/religious/BOOKISH theistic  holy horse  shit  is bull shit""//  .....

     
    RamiR.. first thing is first., forget reading and writing the post in to CEMB., before that you must know how to use quote button
     
    your post should look like this on screen.
     
    Quote from: RamiRustom on December 31, 2013, 02:15 PM
    Quote
    yeezevee:  But what I am learning is to fight and try to score a point in an argument.   That is a terrible disappoint to me specially with your background and knowledge . I think you are not doing justice to the word "Ex-Muslim" you use to represent yourself..

      
    Winning arguments is not the same as searching for the truth. You are conflating the two.
    Quote
    yeezevee: RamiRustom  I was hoping that I will learn from your posts    the technique/s "how I can  persuade these  theists who come from variety of cultures/religions "that their cultural/religious/BOOKISH theistic  holy horse  shit  is bull shit""

      .....  da.da...da.da..

     
    Rami,   do that first.. practice it without posting in to the forum.  please take help from BBcode guide

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #232 - January 01, 2014, 01:22 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee
    Rami,   do that first.. practice it without posting in to the forum.  please take help from BBcode guide


    Btw often I don't see a quote button in the area it's supposed to be in. And sometimes I see it but clicking on it does nothing. (I'm using a mac)

    So I'll just type the necessary characters.

  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #233 - January 01, 2014, 01:25 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on January 01, 2014, 01:22 PM
    Btw often I don't see a quote button in the area it's supposed to be in. And sometimes I see it but clicking on it does nothing. (I'm using a mac)

    So I'll just type the necessary characters.


    All right try this way.. The text you would like to put in Quotes  what you should do is put the text  in this form

     [qute] your text.. [/qute]   the letter "o" is missing there. .   You can copy paste anything from  any where  between   [qute] ......text.. [/qute]

    I don't think you read that bb code link ..please click and read for few mts..   here again .. that link.
    https://www.phpbb.com/community/faq.php?mode=bbcode

    read this part in that link Quoting and outputting fixed-width text

     
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #234 - January 01, 2014, 01:52 PM
    yeezevee

    i'm not sure why you're telling me to do what i've already done. i did quoting correctly in my last post. i quoted some of your text.
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #235 - January 01, 2014, 02:37 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on January 01, 2014, 01:52 PM
    yeezevee

    i'm not sure why you're telling me to do what i've already done. i did quoting correctly in my last post. i quoted some of your text.

    oh Ok.. Rami.,   If you did that, that  is wonderful., I am glad to know that, I  didn't see your post so neglect what I said. 
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Why atheists fail to persuade theists
     Reply #236 - August 02, 2015, 08:59 PM
    Quote from: EzraJT on December 25, 2013, 05:08 PM
    I can't think of anything, any idea that can't be analyzed via science though.


    Gödel's incompleteness theorems.


    Myself and just about every living mathematician,logician and philosopher, will wait patiently.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
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