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Theme Changer

 Topic: Is morality subjective or objective?

 (Read 18756 times)
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  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     OP - December 31, 2013, 05:35 PM

    Is morality subjective or objective?


    Lot’s of people disagree about morality. Many of them think that since we disagree about it, that means that morality must be subjective, as opposed to objective. But this reasoning doesn’t make sense. It’s analogous to saying that science is subjective since many scientists disagree about scientific theories. The reason we disagree is that none of us are infallible, and so people are making mistakes.

    Another reason some people think morality is subjective is that they think there is no objective way for people to agree. But this is not true and I’ll explain why by explaining objectivity.

    Morality is objective. This means that every question has only one correct answer.

    Morality is also contextual. No two people are ever in the exact same situation, so no two contexts are exactly the same. A consequence of this is that what is right for me is not necessarily right for you, and vice versa.

    The objectivity of morality refers not to moral conclusions, but rather to the standard by which moral conclusions are determined. Judges should come to their conclusions using one standard. Analogously, scientists should come to their conclusions using one standard.

    Often, judges and scientists get the conclusions wrong, but the method by which they reach their conclusions ensures that their conclusions will be revised in the future when new evidence is found. In the US judicial system, all court cases can be appealed -- which means that any court decision might be wrong and so it's important to keep them all open to revision. The same goes for science. All scientific theories are treated as our best theories to date -- which means that any scientific theory might be wrong and so it's important to keep them all open to revision. The same goes for moral ideas. Everybody should treat their moral ideas as fallible, just like court decisions and scientific theories -- which means that any moral idea might be wrong and so it's important to keep them all open to revision.

    So what is the standard and how does it work?

    Let’s consider science first. The standard for science is this: A theory is scientific if and only if it can, in principle, be ruled out by empirical evidence. So if there is a theory that is claimed to be scientific, and if it cannot, in principle, be ruled out by empirical evidence, then it is not scientific. Instead, it is what we call scientism.

    The standard for morality is similar, and it actually applies to other kinds of knowledge too, not just morality. The standard is this: An idea is objective if and only if it is intended to solve a problem. Note that this even applies to science. The problems that scientific theories are intended to solve are explaining physical reality while making testable predictions about it, and where the predictions don't contradict our empirical evidence.

    An objective idea is one that can either be true or false. And the way to determine whether it is true or false is to determine whether or not the idea fails solves the problem it’s intended to solve. So if a person finds that a moral idea fails to solve the problem it's intended to solve, then that is it’s flaw. And if the idea is flawed, then it’s false. And when we explain why the idea doesn’t solve the problem it’s intended to solve, this explanation is what we call a criticism of the idea. It refutes the idea.

    So if an idea is flawed, then it's refuted. And if it doesn't have a flaw, then it's unrefuted.

    Now I've made that sound pretty simple but it's a lot more complicated than that. For one thing, people are fallible, which means that any of our ideas may be mistaken, which means that even our criticism can be flawed. That's why it's important to keep all our ideas on the table -- to make sure that all of our ideas are open to criticism.

    So to clarify how refutation works, if an idea has an unrefuted criticism, then the idea is tentatively refuted. And, the unrefuted status of the criticism is also tentative. So if somebody comes along with a criticism of that criticism, then the original idea is now unrefuted.

    A second thing to consider is how criticism works. A criticism is an explanation of a flaw in an idea. Now some ideas are vague -- their purpose (aka goal) is not clear. In other words, the problem that the idea is intended to solve is not clear. This makes it hard to find a flaw in it. For this reason, the fact that the idea is vague is a useful criticism of the idea. In other words, if the idea's purpose is unclear, then it's refuted.

    Now people often disagree about what things are unclear, but this is a soluble problem. One way to do it is to identify what problem the idea is intended to solve. The people discussing the idea might go back and forth a bunch of times before the problem is established, but once that is agreed on, then it's easier to figure out if there is a flaw in the idea. Since the idea is a proposed solution for the intended problem, if we can explain how the proposed solution fails to solve the problem, then we've found a devastating criticism of that idea.

    As an example, consider the case where somebody claims that some event caused some other event. If the claim doesn't have an explanation for the causal relationship, then that is a criticism of the claim -- that it's unexplained. It's a criticism because without an explanation, we can't find out if it's reasoning is wrong. So it's wrong for not having any reasoning.

    So ideas that are intended to solve problems are objective. Those that don’t are subjective. And morality is about solving problems. A moral philosophy should be able to provide a method to answer questions like 'should I learn to read,' 'should I learn epistemology,' 'what and when should I eat,' 'how should I raise my children?' These are all ideas that are intended to solve specific problems. And for this reason, it's possible to find out if they fail to solve the problem.


    ----------------------------------


    If you like my philosophy:

    - signup for my blog to get updates: http://ramirustom.blogspot.com.

    - and friend me on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rami.rustom.
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #1 - December 31, 2013, 05:46 PM

    Is morality subjective or objective
    .......................
    Another reason some people think morality is subjective is that they think there is no objective way for people to agree. But this is not true and I’ll explain why by explaining objectivity.

    Morality is objective. This means that every question has only one correct answer.

    Morality is also contextual. This means that what is right for me is not necessarily right for you, and vice versa. No two people are ever in the exact same situation, so no two contexts are exactly the same.

    ........................

     Well I could only read that far RamiRustom., and.....and  do you think those two statements   gives the gist of your article on Morality??

    DO NOT RESPOND IF YOU CAN NOT QUOTE ME..  Cheesy Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #2 - December 31, 2013, 06:01 PM

    i don't know what you mean. could you clarify?
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #3 - December 31, 2013, 06:08 PM

    i don't know what you mean. could you clarify?

    Oh!   what I meant was please do not respond if you did not read that link on " BBcode guide" and don't know how to use "Quote" button in the forum ..

    That is all  Rami.. I was just kidding.. please continue..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #4 - December 31, 2013, 06:29 PM

    Most of this is just dictionary terms. However, I tend to disagree with the way you approach it.

    Morality is basically about acting 'good' versus 'bad'.
    So what determines what is 'good' and what is 'bad'?

    That is very much dependent on your goal. Goals are very subjective.
    This is actually much like science. Science cannot tell you what to do about anything. It can only give you the facts. Science can tell you how to make a nuclear bomb and how many people will die. But it cannot tell you what to do with the bomb. That is the real of subjective morality. You don't drop a nuclear bomb on a population because you decide your values are to value life... and dropping the bomb would be counter to life. Your value/goal is to value life.

    But let's be clear, the idea of valuing life is not some objective goal. It is subjective. Someone else might value progress, peace, stability, unity, prosperity, nature... more than they value life. Generally people have a multitude of goals/values and it is in this intersection that we come to our own 'morality'.

    The basis for morality can be religious. What your religion/scholars say about it. It can be philosophical. Maybe utilitarianism, altuism, classical liberalism...

    Now certainly once you have chosen your moral framework, it might be possible to objectively decide if an action is moral or not.
    For example, once you decide that the valuing of life is the ultimate moral framework and you can determine that dropping a nuclear bomb on a population will kill 500,000 people, then you can pretty much objectively say that such an act would be immoral.

    But let's be clear, it is in the separation of values and goals where the true debate occurs. In that, it is largely subjective.

    This of course does not mean that we have to accept every other morality. It simply means, you cannot simply appeal to an objective statement.

    For example, I tend heavily towards consequentialism or even utilitarianism with a hint of classical liberalism.
    If someone says their morality is from some religion, then what appeals can I make?

    I for example would say that assisted suicide is perfectly good (with proper counseling) as it means the person feels too much pain in this world and wishes to relieve themselves of the suffering. A reduction of suffering is good. Note this is very big picture view. It complicates if there are children, dependents....

    A person from a religious outlook might say that suffering is part of God's test and the suicide is punished in hell, so it would be an immoral action.


  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #5 - December 31, 2013, 11:10 PM

    Scientists may have different theories about reality, but this doesn't change the fact that there is only one true hypothesis that is correct. Scientist A may think that the earth is flat, while Scientist B may think that the earth is sphere. However, the earth cannot be a sphere and be flat at the same time. You are confusing science with scientists.

    Morality, on the other hand, cannot be objective, since it depends on subjective premises.
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #6 - January 01, 2014, 12:53 PM

    Quote
    Morality is also contextual. This means that what is right for me is not necessarily right for you, and vice versa. No two people are ever in the exact same situation, so no two contexts are exactly the same.


    Which makes morality completely subjective.
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #7 - January 01, 2014, 01:19 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu7AQTs_y5A

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #8 - January 01, 2014, 01:36 PM

    Quote from: scamper_22
    Most of this is just dictionary terms. However, I tend to disagree with the way you approach it.

    Morality is basically about acting 'good' versus 'bad'.
    So what determines what is 'good' and what is 'bad'?

    That is very much dependent on your goal. Goals are very subjective.


    Goals, as you described them, are what I called problems in my essay. Do you see that?

    Why don't you think goals can be wrong?

    Let's say there was a guy whose goal was to make sure that you agree with him on the subject of Allah. And he thinks that the means by which he thinks it's ok to achieve his goal is by threatening to kill you if you don't agree with him.

    Don't you agree that that goal is wrong?
    Quote from: scamper_22
    But let's be clear, the idea of valuing life is not some objective goal. It is subjective. Someone else might value progress, peace, stability, unity, prosperity, nature... more than they value life.


    You seem to be saying that JUST because people disagree on values, THEN that means values are subjective. But that doesn't make sense. Some values are wrong, regardless of whether or not some people hold those values.

    It's wrong to value killing people who leave Islam, or criticize Islam. Do you agree that this is wrong?

    Quote from: scamper_22
    Generally people have a multitude of goals/values and it is in this intersection that we come to our own 'morality'.

    The basis for morality can be religious. What your religion/scholars say about it. It can be philosophical. Maybe utilitarianism, altuism, classical liberalism...

    Are you saying that those ("utilitarianism, altuism, classical liberalism") can't be wrong?

    Quote from: scamper_22
    Now certainly once you have chosen your moral framework, it might be possible to objectively decide if an action is moral or not.
    For example, once you decide that the valuing of life is the ultimate moral framework and you can determine that dropping a nuclear bomb on a population will kill 500,000 people, then you can pretty much objectively say that such an act would be immoral.

    Are you referring to Hiroshima atomic bombs?

    Quote from: scamper_22
    But let's be clear, it is in the separation of values and goals where the true debate occurs. In that, it is largely subjective.

    What do you mean "largely subjective"? Are you trying to say that there is some objectivity or something?

    Quote from: scamper_22
    This of course does not mean that we have to accept every other morality. It simply means, you cannot simply appeal to an objective statement.

    For example, I tend heavily towards consequentialism or even utilitarianism with a hint of classical liberalism.
    If someone says their morality is from some religion, then what appeals can I make?

    I'm not clear on your question. Are you asking me how you can debate morality with someone who believes morality comes from god? I've done it. It's not that hard. For one thing, it's pretty easy to point out a contradiction in religious morality. And if the theist throws up his hands and says that contradictions are ok, then that's where the problem is -- he doesn't value getting rid of contradictions, which is wrong. Do you agree?

    Quote from: scamper_22
    I for example would say that assisted suicide is perfectly good (with proper counseling) as it means the person feels too much pain in this world and wishes to relieve themselves of the suffering. A reduction of suffering is good. Note this is very big picture view. It complicates if there are children, dependents....

    And you'd be right.
    Quote from: scamper_22
    A person from a religious outlook might say that suffering is part of God's test and the suicide is punished in hell, so it would be an immoral action.

    But there is no god, so morality doesn't come from god, so treating one's moral ideas as infallible is wrong. Do you agree?
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #9 - January 01, 2014, 01:39 PM

    Quote from: kitta
    Scientists may have different theories about reality, but this doesn't change the fact that there is only one true hypothesis that is correct. Scientist A may think that the earth is flat, while Scientist B may think that the earth is sphere. However, the earth cannot be a sphere and be flat at the same time. You are confusing science with scientists.

    I haven't confused scientists with science. If you think I did, please explain why you think I did.
    Quote from: kitta
    Morality, on the other hand, cannot be objective, since it depends on subjective premises.

    Are you thinking that those subjective premises can't be wrong? Are you thinking that they can't be found to be wrong?
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #10 - January 01, 2014, 01:41 PM

    Quote from: bogart
    Quote
    Morality is also contextual. This means that what is right for me is not necessarily right for you, and vice versa. No two people are ever in the exact same situation, so no two contexts are exactly the same.

    Which makes morality completely subjective.

    What is your argument for your claim?
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #11 - January 01, 2014, 01:48 PM

    Quote from: yeezevee
    video link about absolute morality

    I'm not clear on why you linked this video. It mentions absolute morality. But my essay doesn't argue for that. Objective morality is not the same as absolute morality. To clarify how they are different, consider lying.

    Absolute morality might claim that lying is always wrong.

    But lying is only wrong in cases where it is used as a tool to hurt an innocent person.

    Lying, if used as a tool to prevent someone from hurting an innocent person, is good. It's self-defense.
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #12 - January 01, 2014, 03:42 PM

    Quote
    Original Position
    First published Tue Feb 27, 1996; substantive revision Sat Dec 20, 2008
    The original position is a central feature of John Rawls's social contract account of justice, “justice as fairness,” set forth in A Theory of Justice (TJ). It is designed to be a fair and impartial point of view that is to be adopted in our reasoning about fundamental principles of justice. In taking up this point of view, we are to imagine ourselves in the position of free and equal persons who jointly agree upon and commit themselves to principles of social and political justice. The main distinguishing feature of the original position is “the veil of ignorance”: to insure impartiality of judgment, the parties are deprived of all knowledge of their personal characteristics and social and historical circumstances. They do know of certain fundamental interests they all have, plus general facts about psychology, economics, biology, and other social and natural sciences. The parties in the original position are presented with a list of the main conceptions of justice drawn from the tradition of social and political philosophy, and are assigned the task of choosing from among these alternatives the conception of justice that best advances their interests in establishing conditions that enable them to effectively pursue their final ends and fundamental interests. Rawls contends that the most rational choice for the parties in the original position are the two principles of justice. The first principle guarantees the equal basic rights and liberties needed to secure the fundamental interests of free and equal citizens and to pursue a wide range of conceptions of the good. The second principle provides fair equality of educational and employment opportunities enabling all to fairly compete for powers and prerogatives of office; and it secures for all a guaranteed minimum of the all-purpose means (including income and wealth) that individuals need to pursue their interests and to maintain their self-respect as free and equal persons....



    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/original-position/

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #13 - January 01, 2014, 05:55 PM

    Quote from: moi

    Are you presenting that in agreement or disagreement with my OP?
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #14 - January 01, 2014, 07:39 PM

    You're talking about morality as though it's actually a 'thing', like it is some kind of external attribute or cosmic standard. Morality is just a broad umbrella term that concerns certain sets of behaviour and values that assure mutual existence between high-functioning mammals with complex wants and needs. These values rely entirely upon an individual's capacity to recognise and appreciate them, and the disposition to act appropriate to them. There is too much degree, ambiguity, variation and permutation to try and totalise it all and declare the analysis and resolution of it to be an objective enterprise. All you're doing here is declaring your own apprehension of the data and the conclusions you've drawn to be transcendent and impartial claims of absolute fact.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #15 - January 01, 2014, 08:59 PM

    Are you presenting that in agreement or disagreement with my OP?


    Maybe that it is too simple a  way to approach the issues? 

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #16 - January 02, 2014, 12:37 AM

    Quote from: Ishina
    You're talking about morality as though it's actually a 'thing', like it is some kind of external attribute or cosmic standard. Morality is just a broad umbrella term that concerns certain sets of behaviour and values that assure mutual existence between high-functioning mammals with complex wants and needs. These values rely entirely upon an individual's capacity to recognise and appreciate them, and the disposition to act appropriate to them. There is too much degree, ambiguity, variation and permutation to try and totalise it all and declare the analysis and resolution of it to be an objective enterprise. All you're doing here is declaring your own apprehension of the data and the conclusions you've drawn to be transcendent and impartial claims of absolute fact.

    I don't think you've understand my OP at all.

    I said multiple times in my essay that we are fallible and that makes our moral conclusions fallible. Yet you just said "the conclusions you've [Rami] drawn to be transcendent and impartial claims of absolute fact." Absolute fact implies infallibility. So you've misinterpreted me.
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #17 - January 02, 2014, 12:39 AM

    Quote from: moi
    Quote
    Are you presenting that in agreement or disagreement with my OP?

    Maybe that it is too simple a  way to approach the issues?

    I don't think so. Why do you think so?
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #18 - January 02, 2014, 01:22 AM

    I don't think you've understand my OP at all.

    I said multiple times in my essay that we are fallible and that makes our moral conclusions fallible. Yet you just said "the conclusions you've [Rami] drawn to be transcendent and impartial claims of absolute fact." Absolute fact implies infallibility. So you've misinterpreted me.


    Actually, I think you completely misunderstood her post.
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #19 - January 02, 2014, 01:25 AM

    I haven't confused scientists with science. If you think I did, please explain why you think I did.Are you thinking that those subjective premises can't be wrong? Are you thinking that they can't be found to be wrong?


    I already explained why you confused scientists with science.

    Again, morality is not something that can be "right" or "wrong". It can only be "right" or "wrong" depending upon certain premises, which in turn, cannot be objectively shown to be "right" or "wrong". Morality is not like mathematics or logical propositions.
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #20 - January 02, 2014, 01:46 AM

    What is your argument for your claim?


    Solely based on the fact that morality is contextual. This is moral relativism. Context is subjective so is open to bias based on religion, opinion, culture, etc. Thus people can agree on a view of right or wrong. Does agreement of values indicate an objective view or is still subjective to the "whims" of personal and cultural views. I am not supporting the view that morality is subjective. I am just poking holes in your argument you didn't expand upon. The majority of your post has nothing to do with your argument for your position. It is a smoke screen whether intentional or not.  

    Quote
    Morality is objective. This means that every question has only one correct answer.

    Morality is also contextual. No two people are ever in the exact same situation, so no two contexts are exactly the same. A consequence of this is that what is right for me is not necessarily right for you, and vice versa.

    The objectivity of morality refers not to moral conclusions, but rather to the standard by which moral conclusions are determined. Judges should come to their conclusions using one standard. Analogously, scientists should come to their conclusions using one standard.


    Morality is objective yet completely dependent on contextual views, ie subjective views. You never established the criteria for this standard by which we judge morality by. All you have done is assert the claim but did nothing to back up this claim. Also court systems are not just open to being wrong but are open to subjective influences which render much of the court system moot. On one hand a court system is completely capable of rendering a fair and justice judgement yet on the other hand can be completely handicapped or restricted by the government which empowers the system. Courts can sit in judgement of the people but not the government unless the government allows it. For example the Nuremberg trials judged the war crimes of the defeated yet never sat in judgement of the victors own crimes. Mass murder was deemed wrong in one situation yet was justified in the other. I have yet to see a court system sit in judgement of the victors crimes. Courts sit in judgement of "terrorist" yet do not bat an eye at murder of innocents under the banner of nation defensive/interest.

    Expand upon your argument for objective morality as you have yet to do so.



  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #21 - January 02, 2014, 01:56 AM

    Quote from: kutta
    Quote
    I don't think you've understand my OP at all.

    I said multiple times in my essay that we are fallible and that makes our moral conclusions fallible. Yet you just said "the conclusions you've [Rami] drawn to be transcendent and impartial claims of absolute fact." Absolute fact implies infallibility. So you've misinterpreted me.

    Actually, I think you completely misunderstood her post.

    And your argument is... [what?].
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #22 - January 02, 2014, 02:03 AM

    Quote from: kutta
    Quote
    I haven't confused scientists with science. If you think I did, please explain why you think I did.Are you thinking that those subjective premises can't be wrong? Are you thinking that they can't be found to be wrong?

    Again, morality is not something that can be "right" or "wrong". It can only be "right" or "wrong" depending upon certain premises, which in turn, cannot be objectively shown to be "right" or "wrong". Morality is not like mathematics or logical propositions.

    What's your argument that the premises can't be shown to be wrong?

    If you don't have an argument for your claim, that's a criticism of your claim. That means your claim is refuted.
  • Re: Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #23 - January 02, 2014, 02:25 AM

    I said multiple times in my essay that we are fallible and that makes our moral conclusions fallible.

    And you've also said those conclusions can be objective, which is the point I'm picking up on. You can make a case for the virtue of impartiality in drawing such conclusions, but I've yet to hear a case that they can be objective in the sense of being true divorced from bias.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #24 - January 02, 2014, 02:30 AM

    If you don't have an argument for your claim, that's a criticism of your claim. That means your claim is refuted.

    Please stop abusing logic. What did it ever do to you?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #25 - January 02, 2014, 11:20 AM

    Is morality subjective or objective?
    .................................


    Science can answer moral questions_TedTalk,  Sam Harris:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj9oB4zpHww

    Dialogue: What is the Role of Science in Morality? Discusiion between discussion between Massimo Pigliucci and Michael Shermer.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Qhlp-X3EHA

    Science and Morality: Lawrence Krauss, Simon Blackburn, Sam Harris & Steven Pinker

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KA1SZaOiP8

    Can Science Tell Us Right From Wrong?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtH3Q54T-M8

    The panelists were psychologist Steven Pinker, author Sam Harris, philosopher Patricia Churchland, physicist Lawrence Krauss, philosopher Simon Blackburn, bioethicist Peter Singer and The Science Network's Roger Bingham.

    well there is plenty to learn

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #26 - January 02, 2014, 11:38 AM

    I'm not clear on why you linked this video. It mentions absolute morality. But my essay doesn't argue for that.

    Hello Rami., well I am not that smart guy,  so some times I link videos that appears to be relevant to the topic  And I thought me and other folks who are at the same intelligence wavelength  as me my learn something from watching the folks discussing on the subject., You and other smart guys need not watch those tubes., You just neglect my posts and respond to others Rami

    Quote
    Objective morality is not the same as absolute morality.

     
    I agree with that but I wonder about the origins of  Objective morality and  absolute morality. I learn some of  my moral values from watching Penguins

    Quote
    To clarify how they are different, consider lying.

    Absolute morality might claim that lying is always wrong.

    But lying is only wrong in cases where it is used as a tool to hurt an innocent person.

    Lying, if used as a tool to prevent someone from hurting an innocent person, is good. It's self-defense.

    And I agree with you ., That is not a new thing., It is well known in many cultures including in Islamic culture/. Well My Islamic background is  related Shia Islam So I know and some times I practice that Al-Taqiyya

    With best wishes and happy new year
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #27 - January 02, 2014, 01:16 PM

    Quote from: bogart
    Quote from: RamiRustom
    What is your argument for your claim?

    Solely based on the fact that morality is contextual. This is moral relativism.

    But that’s not an argument. You’re just restating your unargued claim.

    Quote from: bogart
    Context is subjective so is open to bias based on religion, opinion, culture, etc.

    What do you mean "context is subjective”? What is your argument for your claim (that “context is subjective”)?

    Quote from: bogart
    Thus people can agree on a view of right or wrong. Does agreement of values indicate an objective view or is still subjective to the "whims" of personal and cultural views. I am not supporting the view that morality is subjective. I am just poking holes in your argument you didn't expand upon. The majority of your post has nothing to do with your argument for your position. It is a smoke screen whether intentional or not.  

    I don’t see how you can conclude that “The majority of [my] post has nothing to do with [my] argument” when you haven’t even argued your counter-claims.
     
    Quote
    Morality is objective. This means that every question has only one correct answer.

    Morality is also contextual. No two people are ever in the exact same situation, so no two contexts are exactly the same. A consequence of this is that what is right for me is not necessarily right for you, and vice versa.

    The objectivity of morality refers not to moral conclusions, but rather to the standard by which moral conclusions are determined. Judges should come to their conclusions using one standard. Analogously, scientists should come to their conclusions using one standard.

    Quote from: bogart
    Morality is objective yet completely dependent on contextual views, ie subjective views.


    There’s that unargued claim again (contextual = subjective). Without an argument for the claim, I can’t evaluate it. And without being able to evaluate it, that makes it useless (as it stands now, you could come back with an argument and then we could evaluate that). So it’s refuted.
    Quote from: bogart
    You never established the criteria for this standard by which we judge morality by.

    I did though. I said that all knowledge is created by guesses and criticism, even moral knowledge. If there are any unrefuted criticisms of an idea, then the idea is tentatively refuted. If there are no unrefuted criticisms of an idea, then the idea is tentatively unrefuted.

    Quote from: bogart
    All you have done is assert the claim but did nothing to back up this claim.

    I’m not clear on what you mean. What do you mean I didn’t “back up” my claim? Do you mean that I didn’t give an argument for why knowledge is created by guesses and criticism? Or do you mean something else?

    Quote from: bogart
    Also court systems are not just open to being wrong but are open to subjective influences which render much of the court system moot. On one hand a court system is completely capable of rendering a fair and justice judgement yet on the other hand can be completely handicapped or restricted by the government which empowers the system.

    Sure it’s flawed. But whatever handicap you are talking about are things that can be changed. If there is a dishonest judge, we can replace the judge, for example.

    I don’t understand why you think that that makes it subjective.

    Quote from: bogart
    Courts can sit in judgement of the people but not the government unless the government allows it. For example the Nuremberg trials judged the war crimes of the defeated yet never sat in judgement of the victors own crimes.

    I’m not familiar with that, but if that happened as you say, then you’re right, there’s a mistake there. But what I don’t understand is why you think that just because a mistake was made, that the process is not objective.

    For one thing, do you agree that we can change the laws such that in the future such cases are handled in the way you described (judge the victors for their crimes)?

    Btw, the fact that you think the judicial system made a mistake, that they should have judged the victors too, means that you think there is a better way for the judicial system to work. If you agree that there is a better way, then that means you agree that the existing way is wrong, and that you have a better way. Doesn’t that mean you think this is an objective thing? I mean, that’s what objective means. The thing in question can be right or wrong.

    Quote from: bogart
    Mass murder was deemed wrong in one situation yet was justified in the other. I have yet to see a court system sit in judgement of the victors crimes. Courts sit in judgement of "terrorist" yet do not bat an eye at murder of innocents under the banner of nation defensive/interest.

    Expand upon your argument for objective morality as you have yet to do so.

    This doesn’t make sense. If you think that the judicial system is wrong and that there’s a better way, that means you think the judicial system is an objective thing. You are arguing for my side of this argument, yet somehow you think you’re on the other side. I don’t get it.
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #28 - January 02, 2014, 01:22 PM

    Quote from: Ishina
    Quote from: RamiRustom
    I said multiple times in my essay that we are fallible and that makes our moral conclusions fallible.

    And you've also said those conclusions can be objective, which is the point I'm picking up on. You can make a case for the virtue of impartiality in drawing such conclusions, but I've yet to hear a case that they can be objective in the sense of being true divorced from bias.

    I’m not clear on what you mean.

    If somebody has an idea (that he's biased towards), and if you give him a criticism of it, and if he doesn’t have any criticisms of your criticism, then his idea is refuted (and he should treat it this way, meaning that he shouldn't act on refuted ideas).

    So what’s the problem here?
  • Is morality subjective or objective?
     Reply #29 - January 02, 2014, 01:27 PM

    Quote from: Ishina
    Quote from: RamiRustom
    If you don't have an argument for your claim, that's a criticism of your claim. That means your claim is refuted.

    Please stop abusing logic. What did it ever do to you?

    Maybe you're joking, but if you're serious, I'm not clear on what you're saying. What do you think I'm doing wrong?
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