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Theme Changer

 Topic: The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights

 (Read 10829 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     OP - January 13, 2014, 01:11 AM

    Should human rights always outweigh religious rights?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03qfjbj/The_Big_Questions_Series_7_Episode_2/
    Duration: 60 munites
    Only available in the UK. :/


    Quote
    Amongst those taking part are David Lammy MP, Maajid Nawaz from The Quilliam Foundation, Rev Lynda Rose from Voice for Justice, philosopher Dr Stephen Law, prof Tina Beattie from Roehampton Univeristy, Davis Mac-Iyalla from LGBT Christians in Exile, Rev Betty King, Charlie Klendjian from the Lawyers' Secular Scoiety, Muslim community organiser Sahar Al-Faifi, Rev Sharon Ferguson from the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement, Harmaner Singh from Sikhs in England and Rabbi Neil Janes from the Liberal Jewish Synagogue.


    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #1 - January 13, 2014, 01:38 AM

    youtube link

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ5X_lPXnvU&feature=youtu.be

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #2 - January 13, 2014, 05:23 AM

    A t-shirt is a threat to religion. Who knew? parrot

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #3 - January 13, 2014, 09:04 AM

    When it's awesome t-shirts like these, definitely:


    (Dutch black metal band Countess)

    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #4 - January 13, 2014, 09:16 AM

    And with that one t-shirt, religion falls. Cheesy

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #5 - January 13, 2014, 11:42 AM

    I like how different religious people are very defensive about their own "religious rights" while they were not as passionate about other religious groups and their rights  Cheesy I think the debate was... interesting... The hypocricy of the Muslim ladies was crazy. I recognize the arguments, and have used them myself to some extent, but the tragic part is that even then I didn't fully believe in them and saw how weak they were.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #6 - January 13, 2014, 04:04 PM

    Mind going into more detail? I've never been a muslim so you probably have a different perspective than me.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #7 - January 13, 2014, 04:30 PM

    When it's awesome t-shirts like these, definitely:

    (Clicky for piccy!)
    (Dutch black metal band Countess)


    badass

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #8 - January 13, 2014, 06:30 PM

    When it's awesome t-shirts like these, definitely:

    (Clicky for piccy!)
    (Dutch black metal band Countess)

    It is ridiculous that this t-shirt is a threat to religion.
    I've not watched the video because my battery is nearly dead. I however would guess they made no valid point.
    Oh if a child was required to wear it for a grade in school that would be infringing on religious rights.
    Okay. Just that t-shirt in the adult world I don't see it.

    I like how different religious people are very defensive about their own "religious rights" while they were not as passionate about other religious groups and their rights  Cheesy I think the debate was... interesting... The hypocricy of the Muslim ladies was crazy. I recognize the arguments, and have used them myself to some extent, but the tragic part is that even then I didn't fully believe in them and saw how weak they were.


    This is a sad fact that some people are so willing to take away the rights of others. When I see it I like to give the reminder,  "Beware you never know whose right's will be then next to go."


    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #9 - January 13, 2014, 06:31 PM

    Oh look, religious people claiming to be persecuted for not being able to persecute.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #10 - January 13, 2014, 06:41 PM

    Mind going into more detail? I've never been a muslim so you probably have a different perspective than me.


    Quod! Kaha ti aap?

    Missed you mate.  Afro Have no-one to talk to on Skype!  wacko

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #11 - January 13, 2014, 07:56 PM

    Mind going into more detail? I've never been a muslim so you probably have a different perspective than me.


    I suppose you directed this question to me? As it was several hours ago I watched it, I have already forgotten most of what they discussed (I'm in a haze right now), so can't give you a lot of details.

    They speak about freedom of religion and their right to wear the veil, but they fail miserably to tackle the question regarding being forced to wear the hijab and niqab. They do not take into consideration that the niqab is a huge obstacle in partaking in society. And I am saying this as an ex-niqabi myself, who tried to convice myself and others that "it is not an obstacle, the obstacle is other people and their prejudice". It's not. The face veil is a huge barrier to be a normal person. You yourself might not think about it or see it or be aware of it, I didn't, but others do!

    They ask for special treatment, ie. they want to have the ability to express their faith that homosexuality is sinful or that women should be segregated from men (and also impose this on Muslims whether they like it or nor), while they condemn a person from wearing a T-shirt they deem to be "insulting". As non-Muslims, we have no obligation to comply to the Islamic rulings about portraying Muhammad or any other living being. The niqabi woman wouldn't even answer the question whether or not she supports freedom of expression, because she doesn't! She demands the right to express her hate against homosexuality, but does not accept people criticizing Islam or Muslims. This is "islamophobia" according to her.

    The fact that they are practicing "taqiyyah", whether or not they recognize that they are doing so, is far more repusling. And I know this because these are two conservative ladies, albeit a bit "feminist" because they believe their "Islamic rights" give them freedom to do certain things that they in reality are not allowed to do, but they take advantage of the Brittish society and its openess to live out these ideas. Had they lived in a real Islamic state, she would not be allowed even to debate and speak on national television! They talk about "no compulsion in religion" when they fully well know that this is not a general principle that is not classified by other rulings. A wife must OBEY her husband in everything that is right, whether that means wearing the hijab and niqab or praying extra salawat or cooking and cleaning or doing things in a specific way. Traditional Islam gives no "freedom from compulsion" since obedience is a very important part of Islamic morality and values, whether it is about husband-wife, child-parent, slave-owner, employee-employer etc relations.

    They abstain from speaking freely about certain Islamic rulings and values because they are "not relevant" to our situation, for example execution of apostates. It's hypocrisy! Either they are shamefully lying, decieting and turning the truth over and over again to make it sound "prettier", or they are completely IGNORANT of their own religion.

    Then we have the hijabi ladies attempt to deny that women are asked to write her questions instead of being given the right to talk through a microphone. There are exceptions, but my guess would be that 90 percent, if not more, of the times women are limited from speaking up in "mixed settings". Once again, taqiyyah and hypocricy!

    These are just some of the points I remember.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #12 - January 13, 2014, 10:03 PM

    Oh look, religious people claiming to be persecuted for not being able to persecute.

    Sums up the programme very well.  Afro

    I'm glad they had Christians, Muslims, Jews and Sikhs (as well as secularists) on the show.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #13 - January 13, 2014, 11:33 PM

    I got to watch the video.
    Totally amazing how some people only see what they want to see.
    The lady in the niqab seems reasonable. Yes she spoke out that her belief was against but for them okay. She wasn't for the bed and breakfast that refused the room.
    There were a lot of other issues brought up and now I'm on my way some place else.
    Some people were more reasonable then others.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #14 - January 14, 2014, 12:14 AM

    From Canada:
    Muslim man claims he should not be required to attend classes with women. Court rules him justified? Crazy.

    https://soundcloud.com/tarekfatah/kiran-opal-sanam-malik-on-cfrb?utm_source=soundcloud&utm_campaign=share&utm_medium=twitter

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #15 - January 14, 2014, 03:14 AM

    That student lost his case with the professor. The professor rejected his request regardless of the PR police ruling
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #16 - January 14, 2014, 03:41 AM

    @the Big Question. I enjoyed the first 20 minutes as both sides were in agreement. The last 40 minutes shifted to more detailed questions that is when the true colors came out.
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #17 - January 14, 2014, 03:48 AM

    That student lost his case with the professor. The professor rejected his request regardless of the PR police ruling


    Great to hear, thank you!

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #18 - January 16, 2014, 04:43 AM

    This is the dumbest question. If it is an indication of the nature of discourse taking place in secular "liberal" societies, then I cannot help but despair.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #19 - January 16, 2014, 05:11 AM

    Reminds me of the argument in the Deep South during desegregation that universal civil rights shouldn't trump local customs, i.e. the rights and freedoms for a local group to persecute others in their group because that's their belief system, and thus everyone should be tolerant of that.  A lot of Muslims I see make this same sort of argument, sounding just like Strom Thurmond and George Wallace.
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #20 - January 16, 2014, 02:02 PM

    People have a right to what they think and believe. The problem comes in when a person inflicts their system of belief  or thinking on someone else. This is a different area when it comes to children. Parents teach them something to them if it is by their words or lack of words or actions or lack of them.

    To teach racial hate is child abuse as has been brought up else ware. But to teach a standard of belief or way of life is a parents obligation, resonsibility. When the child ia grown it is their choice what they want to do.

    But rhe area of overlap is into other people space is difficult

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #21 - January 16, 2014, 02:23 PM

    Curious how not one member of the discussion objected to apostacy, following the same sentiment as the show host, 'What a liberal/lying ensemble'.
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #22 - January 16, 2014, 02:49 PM

    Curious how not one member of the discussion objected to apostacy, following the same sentiment as the show host, 'What a liberal/lying ensemble'.

    I am not sure about lying but Yap DT  total liberal bums in CEMB. I didn't read any post except your' s  Lol.. So   I hope you are talking about CEMB folks..  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #23 - January 16, 2014, 04:23 PM

    Quote
    People have a right to what they think and believe. The problem comes in when a person inflicts their system of belief  or thinking on someone else. This is a different area when it comes to children. Parents teach them something to them if it is by their words or lack of words or actions or lack of them.

    To teach racial hate is child abuse as has been brought up else ware. But to teach a standard of belief or way of life is a parents obligation, resonsibility. When the child ia grown it is their choice what they want to do.


    Yes but even this can go too far.  But the real problem is when people justify abuse toward others and domination over others in the name of religious belief.  I've seen Muslims claim that if "western" people were really so tolerant and accepting, they should tolerate and accept Islamic theocracies in the Middle East and their abuse toward both non-Muslims and "heretics", because that's just their belief system.  Again, the same argument the pro-segregationist in the Southern US and Aparthied backers in South Africa made...
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #24 - January 16, 2014, 07:37 PM

    Yes, but this is religious, not political, so that makes it completely different...somehow. No one has actually explained it to me yet in a way that doesn't sound like apartheid, but I'm assured it is different.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #25 - January 16, 2014, 07:59 PM

    Well when they're arguing their religiously motivated intolerant behavior must supersede human rights, that's a political statement.  After all the segregationalist defended their policies partially with appeals to Christianity.
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #26 - January 16, 2014, 09:01 PM

    Religious rights, in principle, can't outweigh human rights simply because they too come under the same umbrella of human rights in a modern, secular, liberal society. Religious people are human and their freedom of religion and belief in enshrined in law.
    There is always likely to be disparity, inequity, imbalance and even conflict between competing interests/groups in any society and certain groups/interests will be more dominant than others based on the numbers or the following each group has managed to obtain. The larger the numbers the greater the influence and that's why muslims, chistians and other groups proselytize and propogate- in an attempt to increase the numbers and hence influence. True equality and universal human rights in any society is unachievable so find your group, affiliate yourself to it as much as you can and fight it out with your competition for the battle is never ending and one group never holds the throne forever.

    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #27 - January 17, 2014, 06:15 AM

    By religious rights people like this don't mean the freedom to worship as they choose, they mean the right to impose their religious views on others.  They believe they should have the right to oppress others because it's their "faith".
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #28 - January 17, 2014, 10:23 AM

    True equality and universal human rights in any society is unachievable so find your group, affiliate yourself to it as much as you can and fight it out with your competition for the battle is never ending and one group never holds the throne forever.

    Damn true. And damn, damn depressing.


    (And explains why I am without influence or any prospect thereof - because I refuse to align myself with any group.)
  • The Big Questions - Human Rights vs Religious Rights
     Reply #29 - January 17, 2014, 08:30 PM

    By religious rights people like this don't mean the freedom to worship as they choose, they mean the right to impose their religious views on others.  They believe they should have the right to oppress others because it's their "faith".


    Dominant forces in societies impose their norms on people all the time whether you like it or not. In most cases, you wouldn't even notice. Of course when you like something or are so used to it you don't even think of it as an imposition it becomes a norm- you automatically conform. Whatever doesn't float your boat at a particular time in your life automatically assumes the status of an imposition or oppression but ultimately these things are subjective and can fluctuate. If you were once a devout, practicing muslim you might well have arguing in the opposite camp.

    (And explains why I am without influence or any prospect thereof - because I refuse to align myself with any group.)


    Most people are part of some group, some interest, some affiliation maybe not always in a formal, organizational or outwardly visible manner but you are affiliated to some group David. You have been part of this forum for quite some time and actively participating, expressing and even trying to influence (nothing wrong in that) I'd guess your religious leanings would be non- religious (atheist/secular), politically you could be left, right, centre etc. etc.
    Whatever totality of different leanings, views, identities you have there is a group somewhere where you would fit in or be represented much better than others (from one or a number of different angles) and  as a result have more of an affinity with. Should any other group whom you are opposed to (e.g. Islamists) grow in influence to the point where they are likely to pose a threat to the interests of your group, then I'd guess you would react in some manner to reassert your interests or the interests of your group. Live and let live, universal  human rights, equality and equity are all wonderful ideals to want to live by and uphold and strive for but ultimately I think, given the flawed nature of us human beings, unachievable or even impossible.

    Always glad to cheer you guys up- lol!

    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
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