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Theme Changer

 Topic: Non-Muslim in need of guidance

 (Read 12825 times)
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  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #30 - January 14, 2014, 05:45 PM

    Here's a linguistic miracle worthy of god. No matter what language it's in, it's always the same perfection. Arabic, English, French, Chinese, doesn't matter. Always perfectly translated so no one misses out on...whatever the fuck we miss out on for not knowing Arabic.

    Or here's a better one: If you just read it, you understand it no matter what it's written in. That right there would be a miracle. If I was unable to read Arabic at all, and I picked up the quran and could read it as easily as I can English, I would accept that as a miracle.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #31 - January 14, 2014, 06:03 PM

    I read somewhere that he doesn't even speak Arabic. Why is he making all these absurd claims? Does he get other people to do his dirty work for him, or is he just stark raving mad?


    On the question of whether he speaks arabic, the answer is yes no, no yes
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKTA2IRl_O4

    On the question of whether he gets other people to do his dirty work, the answer is that there is no real work involved.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE0RtCSyJPQ
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #32 - January 14, 2014, 06:09 PM

    I'd probably see first if it lives up to its reputation and completely demolishes anything written by Homer, Shakespeare, et al. and work from there I suppose.


    Why would you need to learn Arabic to compare the Quran to Homer and Shakespeare? The Quran has already been translated into English many times.

    Are you going to also learn ancient Greek so you can compare it to Homer?

    Also bear in mind that most of the people that make the claim that the Quran is beautiful beyond comparison are not exactly well read, many of them were raised to recite the Quran over and over again since a young age and have read very little if any "great literature".
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #33 - January 14, 2014, 08:47 PM

    The rebuttal I've heard to this is that supposedly a lot of people had committed the verses to memory before it was written down, and that the amount of consensus between those people removed all reasonable doubt. Again, no idea how true this is, which is lazy on my part.

    I'd probably see first if it lives up to its reputation and completely demolishes anything written by Homer, Shakespeare, et al. and work from there I suppose.


    If you look at Muslim sources of the collection of the Quran you will find a weak pattern and standards used to codify. Many of the Muslim sources do not rely on memory but rather actual written accounts, which no one person had a complete copy of all of the Quran. These sources show that even the scholars that codified the Quran did not rely on memory. The oral tradition from memory is a reason why a codified version was required as it caused dispute between Muslims as the Empire expanded.

    Are you going to learn classical Greek and Anarchic English? If you feel learning a language is required to evaluate a text you need to learn two other languages.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #34 - January 14, 2014, 08:50 PM

    Pharaoh is pretty vague. Any details beside a title/name which was know for centuries before Mohammad was born?


    Personally I don't know what the fuck this claim even is. Or rather I don't know the point. Apparently in the bible it doesn't say pharaoh, it says king (I actually can't remember how the King James words it and am clueless as to the specific to-the-letter wording of the original writings before English translation) and I think there's something about how the pharaoh was treated/perceived that only Mo magically knew? I honestly can't remember, I thought it was so pathetic and absurd even by islamic standards I never bothered looking into it.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #35 - January 14, 2014, 08:59 PM

    From what I remember it basically went like this. "Christians thought he was a king, but Muhammad said he was as a god. How could he have known?!"

    What? It's so fucking miraculous that Mo would say a ruler held life and death in his hand? Or passed laws?

    I just cannot fathom the significance of this pharaoh claim. Am I just misunderstanding and that's why it seems to pointless to me?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #36 - January 14, 2014, 09:30 PM

    The Musa story is recounted in detail in the Quran.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #37 - January 14, 2014, 09:36 PM

    Your point?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #38 - January 14, 2014, 09:38 PM

    My point is that the Musa story is in the Bible, too, and could easily have been part of those Syriac - Aramaic Christian tracts or whatever.
    Not such a miracle to relay the story, or assert that Firon was taken as a god.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #39 - January 14, 2014, 09:47 PM

    Do you mind if stick to biblical wording? It's more natural for me to say Moses rather than Musa, Jesus rather than Isa etc. And just throwing it in there, I'm not convinced Moses ever existed, probably at best there was some sort of real origin for him that was just expanded on, which right now isn't here or there.

    As I said, what gets me is I don't understand how it's so amazing that the quran would say pharaoh. I don't get how it's so amazing Mo knew what a pharaoh did or was perceived.

    The entire issue some muslims make of this like it has any significance at all just baffles me.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #40 - January 14, 2014, 10:20 PM

    The argument is one of semantics. Anyways the Bible uses the term King and Pharaoh depending on the texts one looks at. In some verse King is used when it is appropriate in term of context within history. In some verses it uses Pharaoh in context of history. Modern texts use Pharaoh due to the association we now hold between Pharaoh and King. To us it is one and the same. In modern terms Pharaoh means King of Egypt. This happens with language development. We call the Roman Empire's leaders Emperor as we now associate this word with the monarchy system in use. We see Sultan as Kings as the position is the same in context. We call the nation of the Han Chinese China but for centuries they called themselves the Han or the Middle Kingdom. Both mean the same thing in proper context.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #41 - January 14, 2014, 10:28 PM

    As I said, what gets me is I don't understand how it's so amazing that the quran would say pharaoh. I don't get how it's so amazing Mo knew what a pharaoh did or was perceived.

    The entire issue some muslims make of this like it has any significance at all just baffles me.

    Small minds are easily impressed.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #42 - January 14, 2014, 10:29 PM

    Do you mind if stick to biblical wording? It's more natural for me to say Moses rather than Musa, Jesus rather than Isa etc. And just throwing it in there, I'm not convinced Moses ever existed, probably at best there was some sort of real origin for him that was just expanded on, which right now isn't here or there.

    As I said, what gets me is I don't understand how it's so amazing that the quran would say pharaoh. I don't get how it's so amazing Mo knew what a pharaoh did or was perceived.

    The entire issue some muslims make of this like it has any significance at all just baffles me.


    Yes, this is what I am saying. The story is in Quran, and I don't recall much variation from the Biblical version, just less detail. It is not miraculous. Not at all. It was a story floating around in print and in storytelling, both. It is a fact these Christian tracts were being circulated, especially out of Abyssinia. He was on the caravan circuit, with that Christian uncle or whatever, and of course he had heard this.
    Like the slavery concept was foreign to him. Not likely.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #43 - January 14, 2014, 10:30 PM

    On the question of whether he speaks arabic, the answer is yes no, no yes

    On the question of whether he gets other people to do his dirty work, the answer is that there is no real work involved.


    Have bookmarked both, thanks!

    My point is that the Musa story is in the Bible, too, and could easily have been part of those Syriac - Aramaic Christian tracts or whatever.
    Not such a miracle to relay the story, or assert that Firon was taken as a god.


    A Muslim could maybe 'debunk' that (in his own mind) by claiming "oh, well seeing as the Quran says other sacred texts were only partly 'corrupted', that could be part of the message that was preserved!"
    (Not claiming that this is a valid rebuttal - it's pretty absurd IMHO - but it's the same tactic they use whenever someone brings up science in the Hindu vedas and archaeological references in the Bible)

    Personally I don't know what the fuck this claim even is. Or rather I don't know the point. Apparently in the bible it doesn't say pharaoh, it says king (I actually can't remember how the King James words it and am clueless as to the specific to-the-letter wording of the original writings before English translation) and I think there's something about how the pharaoh was treated/perceived that only Mo magically knew? I honestly can't remember, I thought it was so pathetic and absurd even by islamic standards I never bothered looking into it.


    Pharoah? I thought we were talking about the "Haman" character
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haman_%28Islam%29
    Probably bullshit all the same

    If you look at Muslim sources of the collection of the Quran you will find a weak pattern and standards used to codify. Many of the Muslim sources do not rely on memory but rather actual written accounts, which no one person had a complete copy of all of the Quran. These sources show that even the scholars that codified the Quran did not rely on memory. The oral tradition from memory is a reason why a codified version was required as it caused dispute between Muslims as the Empire expanded.

    Are you going to learn classical Greek and Anarchic English? If you feel learning a language is required to evaluate a text you need to learn two other languages.


    True. I guess what's spurned this curiosity is the amount of gusto and conviction with which these 'divine eloquence' claims are thrown around.

    Thank you for that info, I didn't know that. I should stop taking everything I read on wikipedia and raving fundie blogs at face value without checking up on citations/sources/etc.
    (That being said, do you have any sources of your own?)

  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #44 - January 14, 2014, 10:35 PM

    If it's not too much, could someone please elaborate on the significance of the Sana'a manuscript? On the one hand, skeptics claim that it completely demolishes the claim that the Quran has been perfectly preserved since its delivery, whereas Muslim scholars and the like insist it's only evidence for very slight variations in spelling.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #45 - January 14, 2014, 10:36 PM

    (That being said, do you have any sources of your own?)


     Cheesy Good lad.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #46 - January 14, 2014, 10:59 PM

    The issue with Wikipedia is the pages can be modified before any evaluation of the modification is made. Peer-review is after the fact. Also the standards of peer-review vary from topic to topic. For example one of the earliest battle between Muslims and the Byzantium Empire states there were 200,000 Byzantium troops against a few thousand Muslims. Yet if I look at the history of the surrounding area I found that the Byzantium Empire were not capable of raising such a force. During it's wars with Persia the Empire could only muster 70,000 men at it's peak. Yet I am expected to accept 200,000 troops were raised to fight a few thousand Arabs all while the Empire was fighting Persia in the East with 40,000 to 70,000 and a rebellion in the West which required 30,000 troops. It makes no sense at all. If the Empire could raise that many men Persia and Italy would have fallen. The Arabs would have been crushed. When I looked at later battles, within just a few years time, the Empire could barely muster 20,000-40,000 men to fight off the Arabs.

    When using Wikipedia one needs to look at the sources used for the article, not the article itself. One should do this for a blog as well. IF there are no references provided by the blog its not worth reading as you can not verify it's claims. The Qur'an: An Encyclopedia, Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam, The Sectarian Milieu: Content and Composition of Islamic Salvation History, Hagarism: The Making Of The Islamic World. If you can access EBSCOHost Research Databases do so. This is the only database I can think of which should not require a student ID to use. Almost all of the databases I use are provided by my university which requires you to be a registered student.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #47 - January 14, 2014, 11:02 PM

    (That being said, do you have any sources of your own?)
    Cheesy Good lad.


    Best response one could have. People often forget about checking sources when it comes to what they read on the internet.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #48 - January 14, 2014, 11:47 PM

    The issue with Wikipedia is the pages can be modified before any evaluation of the modification is made. Peer-review is after the fact. Also the standards of peer-review vary from topic to topic. For example one of the earliest battle between Muslims and the Byzantium Empire states there were 200,000 Byzantium troops against a few thousand Muslims. Yet if I look at the history of the surrounding area I found that the Byzantium Empire were not capable of raising such a force. During it's wars with Persia the Empire could only muster 70,000 men at it's peak. Yet I am expected to accept 200,000 troops were raised to fight a few thousand Arabs all while the Empire was fighting Persia in the East with 40,000 to 70,000 and a rebellion in the West which required 30,000 troops. It makes no sense at all. If the Empire could raise that many men Persia and Italy would have fallen. The Arabs would have been crushed. When I looked at later battles, within just a few years time, the Empire could barely muster 20,000-40,000 men to fight off the Arabs.

    When using Wikipedia one needs to look at the sources used for the article, not the article itself. One should do this for a blog as well. IF there are no references provided by the blog its not worth reading as you can not verify it's claims. The Qur'an: An Encyclopedia, Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam, The Sectarian Milieu: Content and Composition of Islamic Salvation History, Hagarism: The Making Of The Islamic World. If you can access EBSCOHost Research Databases do so. This is the only database I can think of which should not require a student ID to use. Almost all of the databases I use are provided by my university which requires you to be a registered student.


    Much appreciated! I'm registered at a university that grants alumni access to MyAthens portal I believe so I might be able to access the other databases you speak of.

    Assuming they're different to the ones you provided, I would ask for sources on those figures you provided but that'd be a little cheeky of me, I'll take your word for it just this once  grin12 I see what you mean though. Add to the fact that these already unsubstantiated claims get exaggerated even further by chinese whispers and proselytising and we're left with some very, very dubious claims littered around the internet.
  • Re: Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #49 - January 15, 2014, 10:33 AM

    Why would you need to learn Arabic to compare the Quran to Homer and Shakespeare? The Quran has already been translated into English many times.

    Are you going to also learn ancient Greek so you can compare it to Homer?

    Also bear in mind that most of the people that make the claim that the Quran is beautiful beyond comparison are not exactly well read, many of them were raised to recite the Quran over and over again since a young age and have read very little if any "great literature".


    Perhaps the more appropriate point of comparison is the Thousand and One Nights - a literary production that is superior in style, depth, content, imagination, ethics, humanity etc.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #50 - January 15, 2014, 03:23 PM

    Perhaps the more appropriate point of comparison is the Thousand and One Nights - a literary production that is superior in style, depth, content, imagination, ethics, humanity etc.


    Why is the Quran said to be the 'pinnacle of Arabic literature' though? Is that on account of the sheer number of people who actually believe it to be?
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #51 - January 15, 2014, 03:59 PM

    It's subjective. I'm assuming you're aware of the challenge to produce a chapter like it. I've read the quran, and I've seen people try to meet this challenge, and in my eyes they're succeeded. I read their attempt, and I think yeah, I can believe that's from the quran, Same style, same phrasing, etc. But then someone else disagrees. So who decides? Do I decide or do you decide? What if in my eyes the challenge is met but in your eyes it isn't, or if in my eyes it isn't met put in your eyes it is? It's something you can have fun with but it's something that it entirely in the eyes of the individual.

    Same with the above comment on Thousand and One Nights. josephus thinks it's better.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #52 - January 15, 2014, 04:09 PM

    Quote
    So who decides?


    you do. The whole point of the challenge is to convince you that the book is from Allah. The challenge is addressed to the doubters. It does not say see if you can produce something like it, in the opinion of Zakir Naik.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #53 - January 15, 2014, 04:31 PM

    Kepticsay

    Well, it would be bad form to point out that God was a bit of a literary hack, as, by definition, it kinda has to be the pinnacle.

    A good versifier, but deficient in narrative technique, a puzzlingly poor editor, unoriginal, and lacking creative spark when re-working/copying older material.

    In the end, it's just the repetition of a conventional formula, a mantra as it were; and, notwithstanding the efforts of scholars to justify the inimitablity of the Quran, there are no real objective criteria with which to evaluate such claims. Consider it as part of the superstructure of apologetic discourses erected to shield the text from the wrong kind of critical scrutiny.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #54 - January 15, 2014, 08:15 PM

    Arabic is my native language, but I've never been truly impressed with the Quran. It's an illusion. There's very little content, and none of it useful. Only by overanalyzing it do you find hidden meanings and such which can be done with any piece of literature.

    I found it to be completely and utterly unimpressive. The errors and contradictions that Muslims refuse to acknowledge were the final nail in the coffin for me.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #55 - January 15, 2014, 09:15 PM

    Toona makes a great point. I would also add since holy texts are seen as an authority, due to divines messages or the texts divine nature itself. We are looking for validation of our views and ideas from an authority. Now we, as humans, do this often. However usually we communicate with other humans to evaluate our ideas rather than ad hoc sources which can not directly communicate back. The search for validation goes so far that one can avoid any criticism by excluding all sources which could provide criticism. Hence one religion can have many denominations as each validates their views with a non-individual or individual we create ourselves. Hence "What would God, Jesus or Mohammad do?" Each person views are 100% correct, everyone else is wrong. Criticism is ignored completely creating a schism between those for or against the idea. We grant ourselves abilities far outside our capability, namely the 3-Os. We grant ourselves the ability of the God we happen to worship to resolve a question which originate from humans. Hence we can never be wrong as we are isolated in a bubble of pure divine "right"

  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #56 - January 15, 2014, 10:51 PM

    Arabic is my native language, but I've never been truly impressed with the Quran. It's an illusion. There's very little content, and none of it useful. Only by overanalyzing it do you find hidden meanings and such which can be done with any piece of literature.

    I found it to be completely and utterly unimpressive. The errors and contradictions that Muslims refuse to acknowledge were the final nail in the coffin for me.


    Funnily enough, I have heard similar opinions before from native Arabic speakers.

    This is probably a loaded question, but if the Quran didn't claim to be from God, and had never been relentlessly overstudied, analysed and automatically held in high esteem by millions of people by that same virtue, do you think it would still be considered 'miraculous' from a linguistic perspective by... well, anyone?

    Toona makes a great point. I would also add since holy texts are seen as an authority, due to divines messages or the texts divine nature itself. We are looking for validation of our views and ideas from an authority. Now we, as humans, do this often. However usually we communicate with other humans to evaluate our ideas rather than ad hoc sources which can not directly communicate back. The search for validation goes so far that one can avoid any criticism by excluding all sources which could provide criticism. Hence one religion can have many denominations as each validates their views with a non-individual or individual we create ourselves. Hence "What would God, Jesus or Mohammad do?" Each person views are 100% correct, everyone else is wrong. Criticism is ignored completely creating a schism between those for or against the idea. We grant ourselves abilities far outside our capability, namely the 3-Os. We grant ourselves the ability of the God we happen to worship to resolve a question which originate from humans. Hence we can never be wrong as we are isolated in a bubble of pure divine "right"


    One of the things I've found fascinating about Christianity and Islam, is that they're both adhered to by billions of people around the world, have their "sacred texts" which have been the subject of endless study, have their proselytisers and unquestioning clergy, have spawned various different 'sects' and schools of thought/interpretation, have had an enormous impact on history and society & culture even to this day, have people who swear to have experienced or witnessed supernatural phenomena unique to their respective faiths, and at the end of the day, at the very most only one can be right, seeing as they're mutually exclusive from a theological perspective, while both could be wrong. If it's the latter outcome (both being wrong), then it seems to me that mankind's biggest sin is... bias. Something about it reminds me of schrodinger's cat  wacko


    This is probably long overdue, but I've been having a read around the forum and realised I've committed the cardinal sin of not including bunnies or parrots in any of my posts yet. I do apologise!  parrot  bunny  thnkyu Many thanks to all for your input, including those who've pointed me in the right direction via PM.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #57 - January 15, 2014, 11:34 PM

    Every religion could be wrong.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #58 - January 16, 2014, 12:06 AM


    This is probably a loaded question, but if the Quran didn't claim to be from God, and had never been relentlessly overstudied, analysed and automatically held in high esteem by millions of people by that same virtue, do you think it would still be considered 'miraculous' from a linguistic perspective by... well, anyone?



    Maybe someone would, but basically no.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #59 - January 16, 2014, 12:09 AM

    Funnily enough, I have heard similar opinions before from native Arabic speakers.

    This is probably a loaded question, but if the Quran didn't claim to be from God, and had never been relentlessly overstudied, analysed and automatically held in high esteem by millions of people by that same virtue, do you think it would still be considered 'miraculous' from a linguistic perspective by... well, anyone?


    The only reason Muslims believe it to be so great is the underlying presupposition that God had written. You have to believe that first, so the conclusion is drawn in the premise, very circular. so, no it would not be considered any more miraculous than any other works of fiction.
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