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 Topic: What should America do in Syria?

 (Read 12383 times)
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  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #60 - February 19, 2014, 12:36 AM

    Well, Saddam was installed with help from the US, and later armed to the teeth for a variety of reasons.  The fact is, the mess in Iraq is largely our fault.  Reagan deserves more of the blame than Saddam.

    As far as I'm concerned, the only recent case of "nation building" with any honest intentions were the Soviets in Afghanistan.  Not that I would support such a thing regardless.

    We'll have to realize one day that killing people doesn't solve anything.
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #61 - February 19, 2014, 03:51 AM

    Anfal is a different situation than Syria. Hindsight being 20/20 they should have gone in. For that matter they, America, should have never supported Iraq in the 80s by arming it's military. My stance on Syria is based on the fragmentation of the FSA, the Islamist groups and cultural/tribal groups all fighting each other just as hard as they fight the government. I do not think any faction is an appropriate replacement for the old government. Also I think even with the government removed as a player the civil war will continue between other factions. I do not think Libya is the model to follow for Syria. I do not think the air-strike alone model works in the end. Boots on the ground means factions can be separated, disarmed and force to join table talks. Nation building rather than letting people fight over the ashes.


    Yes, I keep waiting for the US to stop arming the military of other countries, but sadly, it continues.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #62 - February 19, 2014, 05:35 AM

    Well, it makes a lot of money to do so, so we'll have to wait for a very long time.
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #63 - February 20, 2014, 09:24 AM

    I don't think the U.S. should get involved in Syria. I can't see that ending well. I reckon a coalition of Muslim nations should band together and do something about it. I can't see any infidel involvement working without significant blowback. 
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #64 - February 20, 2014, 11:48 AM

    Well, it makes a lot of money to do so, so we'll have to wait for a very long time.


    Yah. I am not under an illusion that this will ever happen. Governments do not represent the public's view when it comes to foreign policy, unless the public is out in the streets like Vietnam. Besides this I think the west is in an age of apathy when it comes to challenging the system.

    I don't think the U.S. should get involved in Syria. I can't see that ending well. I reckon a coalition of Muslim nations should band together and do something about it. I can't see any infidel involvement working without significant blowback. 


    I do not see a coalition of Muslim nations doing anything but mirroring the actions of the superpowers of the last 100 years. Financing of factions for a national benefit. The same thing these nations have been doing since the collapse of the last coalition against Israeli. 
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #65 - February 20, 2014, 02:32 PM

    I don’t think it’s a perfect solution by any means (is there even such a thing?) but it certainly seems like a much better alternative to U.S. involvement. All I’m saying is, if anyone should get involved militarily it should be other Muslim nations. Turkish boots on the ground would be preferable to American ones, no? I do get your point though and, of course, any toppling of the Assad regime by foreign hands would inevitably mean nation building and we've already seen how great the tends to work out....

    It's really a desperately hopeless situation.
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #66 - February 20, 2014, 02:38 PM

    Forgive me for my ignorance, but I always thought Assad was the more secular of the groups fighting in Syria as he is backed by the Christians who claim they will have more religious freedom than with the rebels leading. And secondly, the rebels are currently infighting, why would you want to support the people that cannot even get their shit straight. 
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #67 - February 20, 2014, 02:40 PM

    Quote
    Turkish boots on the ground would be preferable to American ones, no?

     

    Turkey is part of NATO.  I don't think it's conceivable that Turkey would use their military to intervene without NATO.


    And to be honest muslim countries only want to help with their military if they are fighting a kaffir non muslim army (e.x. soviets in afghanistan)  so that they can get some jihad points.  

    My relative was one of the mujahideen who went to fight the soviets in afghanistan.  He didn't do it to help out the Afghans. He volunteered for it so he could become a martyr and go to heaven.



    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #68 - February 20, 2014, 03:56 PM

    Well what is there for America? what else can America do ??







    Quote



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #69 - February 20, 2014, 04:01 PM









    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #70 - February 20, 2014, 05:48 PM

    Quote
    My relative was one of the mujahideen who went to fight the soviets in afghanistan.  He didn't do it to help out the Afghans. He volunteered for it so he could become a martyr and go to heaven.


    Really?  How old is he?

    Quote
    Yah. I am not under an illusion that this will ever happen. Governments do not represent the public's view when it comes to foreign policy, unless the public is out in the streets like Vietnam. Besides this I think the west is in an age of apathy when it comes to challenging the system.


    I think one of the reasons you don't see people rioting over our wars across the planet like they did in Vietnam is because now it's all about oil, and those gas prices are getting higher...
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #71 - February 20, 2014, 06:05 PM

    Recent wars have had a lot less of an impact on the national identity. Nam had a lot more issues behind it than just the war. Current wars have little impact unless a family member is in the military. The whole shock and awe of 9/11 has died out. Homegrown threats are more real than foreign attacks. Gas prices are artificial anyways. If the entire middle east went dry at once there are still vast reserves in America and Canada. North America does need oil from overseas. Heck if Canada withheld exporting oil for one year the nation would have an oil surplus for it's needs for the next 300 years. I think the war for oil is about keeping oil away from China more than anything else.
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #72 - February 20, 2014, 06:10 PM

    Oh I agree with you, I'm just saying that the perception is we need the oil so screw them.
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #73 - February 20, 2014, 06:15 PM

    .............now it's all about oil, and those gas prices are getting higher...

    Yap  it is all about  Oil.,  Oil leaking out of Muslim asses..out of allah ass.,

    So EzraJT ., How much billions of dollars and how many American  lives did your US of A  spent in Iraq and Afghanistan wars along with for its internal security?   

    I wonder how much oil you can buy from that  money ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #74 - February 20, 2014, 10:22 PM

    Quote
    Yap  it is all about  Oil.,  Oil leaking out of Muslim asses..out of allah ass.,


    If oil came out of Muslim's asses, we'd have to invade their anuses, and bring democracy to their colons.

    Quote
    So EzraJT ., How much billions of dollars and how many American  lives did your US of A  spent in Iraq and Afghanistan wars along with for its internal security?   


    Isn't it in the trillions by now?  They ended up costing a lot more than the Pentagon and White House thought they would.

    Quote
    I wonder how much oil you can buy from that  money ..


    Well we've made Iraq safe for oil companies and defense contractors.
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #75 - February 20, 2014, 11:35 PM

    Forgive me for my ignorance, but I always thought Assad was the more secular of the groups fighting in Syria as he is backed by the Christians who claim they will have more religious freedom than with the rebels leading. And secondly, the rebels are currently infighting, why would you want to support the people that cannot even get their shit straight. 


    Secular=\=good

    Hoxha was secular, Stalin was secular, Mao was secular, Suhuarto was secular and so on and so forth

    What's so bone-chilling about threads like these is that the title is more along the lines of 'how should middle-class Americans react to the Syrian crises' rather than 'there are 10 million displaced, 5 million starving and 150k dead, what can we do/do we need to do'. But of course Richard Dawkins, Phillip Seymour Hoffman and Maryam Namazie are much more important
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #76 - February 21, 2014, 12:20 AM

    In what possible way was Stalin secular? Huh?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #77 - February 21, 2014, 12:39 AM

    How do you define secular QSE?

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #78 - February 21, 2014, 01:29 AM

    You know those islamist wankers who do there best to try to force sharia on unwilling people? Stalin did that with atheism/communism. A truly secular state is not an atheist state, it's just not. Secular means all are equal. No belief or lack of belief places you higher on the ladder than another simply because of faith or lack thereof. No one religion or group is given more importance just because they belong to the "right" group.

    It's the basic principle of a secular nation. Obviously you can poke holes in this. The US is supposed to be a secular state, but it's a christian country in all but name. I can't see someone being elected who didn't claim to believe in god no matter how qualified for the job they are. Then again, the UK is supposed to be christian but I can't see anyone being elected who wasn't secular. Very religious people are a huge turnoff here.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #79 - February 21, 2014, 02:58 AM


    Secular just means non-religious or free from religion, it doesn't necessarily mean democracy or human rights or tolerating different views. Assad is an asshole but he runs a secular regime. 
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #80 - February 21, 2014, 03:02 AM

    @TDR

    Quote
    Turkey is part of NATO.  I don't think it's conceivable that Turkey would use their military to intervene without NATO.


    It doesn't have to be Turkey, that was just an offhand example. It could be any collection of the fifty or so Muslim nations in the world. 

    Quote
    And to be honest muslim countries only want to help with their military if they are fighting a kaffir non muslim army (e.x. soviets in afghanistan)  so that they can get some jihad points.

     

    Protecting Muslims from Assad's kaffir army *would* score them jihad points. They'd be fighting a secular Alawite regime/despot that's killing Sunni Muslims. In any case, I don't think it really matters what individual Muslims' reasons for wanting to fight are. I doubt any nation goes to war for purely noble or altruistic reasons. 
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #81 - February 21, 2014, 06:57 AM

    Quote
    The US is supposed to be a secular state, but it's a christian country in all but name.


    How so?

    Quote
    I can't see someone being elected who didn't claim to believe in god no matter how qualified for the job they are. Then again, the UK is supposed to be christian but I can't see anyone being elected who wasn't secular


    Don't all your PM's, for example Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, David Cameron, etc, talk about how they're Christians and people need faith, etc?
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #82 - February 21, 2014, 06:58 AM

    You know those islamist wankers who do there best to try to force sharia on unwilling people? Stalin did that with atheism/communism. A truly secular state is not an atheist state, it's just not. Secular means all are equal. No belief or lack of belief places you higher on the ladder than another simply because of faith or lack thereof. No one religion or group is given more importance just because they belong to the "right" group.

    It's the basic principle of a secular nation. Obviously you can poke holes in this. The US is supposed to be a secular state, but it's a christian country in all but name. I can't see someone being elected who didn't claim to believe in god no matter how qualified for the job they are. Then again, the UK is supposed to be christian but I can't see anyone being elected who wasn't secular. Very religious people are a huge turnoff here.


    If you're going to use that definition then Assad's regime isn't a secular state, a regime that pits religious groups against each other to keep power and discriminates against adherents of a certain sect is not secular.

    By the way, the UK is not a secular state if the US isn't. David Cameron is a moralising Christian fuck and the state definitely leans towards favouring Christians and Christianity.

  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #83 - February 21, 2014, 07:02 AM

    Quote
    By the way, the UK is not a secular state if the US isn't. David Cameron is a moralising Christian fuck and the state definitely leans towards favouring Christians and Christianity.


    Yeah, I was about to say that.  David Cameron I think is even trying to get the UK government to ban hardcore porn because it's "immoral".
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #84 - February 21, 2014, 08:57 AM

    Australia pawns both the U.S. and the U.K. in the secularism department. I don't think religion gets mentioned too much (if at all) in elections here; in fact, our last PM was an atheist. 
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #85 - February 21, 2014, 10:48 AM

    How so?

    Don't all your PM's, for example Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, David Cameron, etc, talk about how they're Christians and people need faith, etc?

    well watch them and their religion EzraJT

    A debate between Tony Blair and MY HERO .,   but..but he is  your dick head & Asshole   Cry Cry

    Gordon Brown and his faith

    David Cameron and his faith

    So on this point of yours

    If oil came out of Muslim's asses, we'd have to invade their anuses, and bring democracy to their colons.

    Isn't it in the trillions by now?  They ended up costing a lot more than the Pentagon and White House thought they would.

    Well we've made Iraq safe for oil companies and defense contractors.

    How many trillions., 2 trillions?  I don't think they can extract 2 trillion dollars of oil out of Iraq. It has ~  150 Billion Barrels of oil under its sand ., Average 100$ per barrel., I don't think AMRIKA  oil companies and defense contractors  can squeeze 2 trillion $ worth from Iraq and its people.

    So question is why did they go there??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #86 - February 21, 2014, 07:57 PM

    Quote
    So question is why did they go there??


    Material conquest?
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #87 - February 21, 2014, 11:06 PM

    Material conquest?

    what material conquest? and  what material did AMRIKA got out of that Iraq war ET? With the money they spent there in war.,  AMRIKA could have brought MORE OIL than the TOTAL OIL that Iraq has under its soil. Let me give you some figures and links here..

    Quote
    Cost of the Iraq War

    The war in Iraq has cost $1.7 trillion through fiscal year 2013, according to Brown University’s Watson Institute for International Studies. That’s trillion, with a “t”. Including future costs for veteran’s care, and so on, raises the cost to $2.2 trillion.

    Because the war was financed with debt, we should also include a charge for interest on the debt. The Iraq war’s share of cumulative interest on the US debt through 2053 will raise the total cost of the war to $3.9 trillion.




    "In conclusion For the Price of the Iraq War, The U.S. Could Have a 100% Renewable Power System"

    Quote
    We could have colonized Mars with the money we spent on the Iraq war -- what else could we do?

    we could have bought with the money wasted in Iraq: for example, we could have sent a colony of over 500 astronauts to Mars, provided modern nuclear power to the USA and shut down its coal plants, built modern cities for 600,000,000 Chinese people to live in..

    For $6Tn we could buy a lot of juice – a quarter of our global civilization's energy budget would go carbon-neutral at a stroke. (Yes, we just solved our carbon dioxide emissions problem by switching to a nuclear economy.)

     And  the news from AMRIKA says

    China Is Reaping Biggest Benefits of Iraq Oil Boom

    Quote
    BAGHDAD — Since the American-led invasion of 2003, Iraq has become one of the world’s top oil producers, and China is now its biggest customer. China already buys nearly half the oil that Iraq produces, nearly 1.5 million barrels a day, and is angling for an even bigger share, bidding for a stake now owned by Exxon Mobil in one of Iraq’s largest oil fields.

    “The Chinese are the biggest beneficiary of this post-Saddam oil boom in Iraq,” said Denise Natali, a Middle East expert at the National Defense University in Washington. “They need energy, and they want to get into the market.”


    But i wonder whether it is Chinese folks in china or  or.. Chinese women who are married to AMRIKA CEOS OF THE OIL COMPANIES?

    EzraJT  Young man .. GO GO for elections in that orange country .. forget your age and forget your problems for some time.  At 24 Christ was prophet, messenger and. ...and.. ...


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #88 - February 21, 2014, 11:10 PM

    Quote
    what material conquest? and what what material did AMRIKA got out of that Iraq war ET? With the money they spent there in war.,  AMRIKA could have brought MORE OIL than the TOTAL OIL that Iraq has under its soil. Let me give you some figures and links here..


    So wars of conquest never end up biting the conquerors on the ass?  Occupiers are never forced to retreat? 

    So Saddam Hussein was selling us oil, even when we had an embargo against his oil?  LOL

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/19/opinion/iraq-war-oil-juhasz/  Even the mainstream media doesn't deny this.  What rock have you been living under?

    Quote
    In 2000, Big Oil, including Exxon, Chevron, BP and Shell, spent more money to get fellow oilmen Bush and Cheney into office than they had spent on any previous election. Just over a week into Bush's first term, their efforts paid off when the National Energy Policy Development Group, chaired by Cheney, was formed, bringing the administration and the oil companies together to plot our collective energy future. In March, the task force reviewed lists and maps outlining Iraq's entire oil productive capacity.

    Planning for a military invasion was soon under way. Bush's first Treasury secretary, Paul O'Neill, said in 2004, "Already by February (2001), the talk was mostly about logistics. Not the why (to invade Iraq), but the how and how quickly."

    In its final report in May 2001 (PDF), the task force argued that Middle Eastern countries should be urged "to open up areas of their energy sectors to foreign investment." This is precisely what has been achieved in Iraq.

    This Iraq Hydrocarbons Law, partially drafted by the Western oil industry, would lock the nation into private foreign investment under the most corporate-friendly terms. The Bush administration pushed the Iraqi government both publicly and privately to pass the law. And in January 2007, as the ''surge" of 20,000 additional American troops was being finalized, the president set specific benchmarks for the Iraqi government, including the passage of new oil legislation to "promote investment, national unity, and reconciliation."


    Quote
    "In conclusion For the Price of the Iraq War, The U.S. Could Have a 100% Renewable Power System"


    Yeah, the oil companies really want that.   Roll Eyes

    Do you live totally isolated from mainstream society or what?
  • What should America do in Syria?
     Reply #89 - February 21, 2014, 11:19 PM

    ...
    Do you live totally isolated from mainstream society or what?
    ..

     

    yap absolutely ET . TOTALLY ISOLATED .. no influence from any side ., far away from society.. on a hill in a barrow  like a mole rat.. 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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