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Reply #690 - April 02, 2014, 09:41 PM

Wouldn't that be the inspiration for eden then. not actual biblical eden with the mythical garden with an angel with a flaming sword guarding it?

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #691 - April 02, 2014, 10:02 PM

The Garden of Eden is not a new or unique idea restrict to Abe's religions. Sumerian, Babylonia, Greece, China, India, etc. In it's basic form Eden is a utopia or paradise. This is why Eden in Islam is part of Jannah not Earth. In some Hindu sects view this paradise as within yourself, enlightenment. You become paradise. For some it is a place on Earth as with Greece. Also keep in mind there is a place or concept of a dystopia. In some Hindu sect this is represented by becoming more or less an instinct demon. You have no free will, no free thoughts, void of an positive attribute. You become an embodiment of Hell. There is no enlightenment, no coming back from this form. This concept is also represented in Greece.
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Reply #692 - April 02, 2014, 10:07 PM

I find it amusing that mormons say it's in Missouri of all places.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #693 - April 02, 2014, 10:20 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on April 02, 2014, 09:41 PM
Wouldn't that be the inspiration for eden then. not actual biblical eden with the mythical garden with an angel with a flaming sword guarding it?

yep, mythology aside, it would be a fascinating find, imagine the treasures, he's found a new location close by cyprus again, hope it works out this time as he's made it his lifes work..
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Reply #694 - April 02, 2014, 10:28 PM

Waste of a life.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
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Reply #695 - April 02, 2014, 10:34 PM

It won't work out because Eden never existed.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #696 - April 02, 2014, 10:35 PM

... And other peoples money lol
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Reply #697 - April 02, 2014, 10:36 PM

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #698 - May 26, 2014, 03:50 PM

I have four questions I've been wondering a moment without getting clear answer:

1. Wife beating in Islam:
I obviously oppose physical domination or mental manipulation of a woman but does Islam receive too much criticism? Didn't Mohammad prohibit hitting in the face and at least few Sahih Hadiths say "do not beat them [wives]" and Sahih Muslim says "so act kindly towards women". Q4:19 says you shouldn't act harshly towards women. If I understood my readings correctly, Job/Ayyub struck his wife gently with green grass which isn't really that big of a punishment physically.
Islamic Awareness claims that it means 'to separate' instead of beating. Is that claim easily debunked?

2. Apostasy in Islam:
Is there any punishment for apostasy in Islam? Sure, some apostates got killed [ordered] by Mohammad but
were they really punished for leaving Islam or for other crimes such killing shepherds or treason?

3. Slaughter in Islam:
Is Halal slaughter worse than that electric shock? I've heard it is but some muslim said that according to some unbiased study it is actually less painful... I haven't seen proof for either one. I've heard that a deep cut to throat doesn't hurt after the initial cutting and the death is painless for the animal. Which one is true: Halal slaughter is less or more painful? Or is the difference actually non-existent?

4. Did Mohammad order any unjustified killings:
I've heard he ordered killings of poets and people who made fun of him, non-believers, someone he tortured because he wanted a treasure and so on, but muslims say those people were killed because they had killed, planned on war, fought against muslims or that the narrations are untrue.
Are there any killings ordered by Mo that people of CEMB find totally unjustified?

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I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
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Reply #699 - May 26, 2014, 03:56 PM

1. Please explain to me in what situations it is ok for my husband to punish me.

2. Obviously. Since it still happens to this day.

3. It takes an adult cow anywhere between 22 and 40 seconds after their throat is cut to become insensible. That's insensible, not dead. It takes a calf anywhere between 10 and 120 seconds to become insensible. Electrical or pneumatic stunning makes them instantly insensible. Animal rights and welfare organisations are pretty much unanimously in favour of stunning before slaughter, and the evidence is compelling.

Count to 22 seconds in your head. That's how long a cow would be bleeding for until it passed out. Maybe longer.

4. The death penalty can not be justified. Certainly not by a book of defunct folk wisdom written by ignorant thugs.

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Reply #700 - May 26, 2014, 04:15 PM

Quote
1. Please explain to me in what situations it is ok for my husband to punish me.

Not fine like I said.

Quote
2. Obviously. Since it still happens to this day.

Yes, but in actually scriptural Islam, is there punishment for leaving Islam?

Quote
3. It takes an adult cow anywhere between 22 and 40 seconds after their throat is cut to become insensible. That's insensible, not dead. It takes a calf anywhere between 10 and 120 seconds to become insensible. Electrical or pneumatic stunning makes them instantly insensible. Animal rights and welfare organisations are pretty much unanimously in favour of stunning before slaughter, and the evidence is compelling.

Count to 22 seconds in your head. That's how long a cow would be bleeding for until it passed out. Maybe longer.

Is there a mistake or why does calf have so much wider range of time to become insensible than cows? Also where are these claims based, including pneumatic stunning?

Quote
4. The death penalty can not be justified. Certainly not by a book of defunct folk wisdom written by ignorant thugs.

I think killing could be justified if somebody planned on killing Mo or his people. Also wars as disgusting and sad they are, are situations where killing is somewhat justified.

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Reply #701 - May 26, 2014, 04:37 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on May 26, 2014, 04:15 PM
Not fine like I said.

So the criticism of Islam is justified.

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on May 26, 2014, 04:15 PM
Yes, but in actually scriptural Islam, is there punishment for leaving Islam?

I'm sure you're aware of hadith that speak to the point of killing apostates.

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on May 26, 2014, 04:15 PM
Is there a mistake or why does calf have so much wider range of time to become insensible than cows?

Because in younger cows the arteries are more elastic and can retract into the tissue when sliced cleanly. The artery tissue channels can fill with blood and form clots, thus slowing or stopping the loss of blood and stabilising blood pressure for quite a while.

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on May 26, 2014, 04:15 PM
Also where are these claims based, including pneumatic stunning?

Here's a pretty extensive run down:

FAWC - Report on the Welfare of Farmed Animals at Slaughter or Killing, Part 1: Red Meat Animals

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on May 26, 2014, 04:15 PM
I think killing could be justified if somebody planned on killing Mo or his people. Also wars as disgusting and sad they are, are situations where killing is somewhat justified.

So, what does your question pertain to, then? Killing in battle or killing for punitive reasons? Because your examples span both of those things.

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Reply #702 - May 26, 2014, 04:51 PM

The reason islam gets a lot of critisim for wife beating is because it is included in the quran plain and simple, it is absolutely ridiculous that it even exists in a "holy" book.. The advice given to a man in how to deal with a rebellious wife in that book, such as ignoring her, not sharing her bed then beating her is cold, cruel, very pathetic and demeaning to all women, if it was meant to be a "divine" revelation then God would have advised couples to discuss their problems together, not treat a woman like a dumb naughty child.. i was beaten by my ex regularly in the name of islam and it gets to me this subject, sorry for the rant..
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Reply #703 - May 26, 2014, 04:55 PM

Aren't the rules of Jihad in war ok though ? well apart from capturing widows and making them slaves :/
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Reply #704 - May 26, 2014, 04:56 PM

Quote
So the criticism of Islam is justified.

I think so too, but I'm talking about the level of criticism. If the punishment is light tap Islam shouldn't be criticized for physically beating up women (implying that they are actually harshly beaten) but they should only be criticized of light tapping.

Quote
I'm sure you're aware of hadith that speak to the point of killing apostates.

Many muslims argue it's because in those times it meant treason, but I guess it's weak explanation. Is there written
material about Mo ordering killing of apostates who didn't join his enemies?

Quote
Because in younger cows the arteries are more elastic and can retract into the tissue when sliced cleanly. The artery tissue channels can fill with blood and form clots, thus slowing or stopping the loss of blood and stabilising blood pressure for quite a while.

Ok.

Quote
Here's a pretty extensive run down:

Thanks, I will check it out.

Quote
So, what does your question pertain to, then? Killing in battle or killing for punitive reasons? Because your examples span both of those things.

I don't understand this, too hard language. I might answer wrongly because I'm not sure what you meant but I meant to ask whether there was any killings ordered by Mo that were ordered only because someone made fun of him etc. and not for legit reasons such as trying to kill him or his people.

edit. Suki, such a beautiful picture in you AV.

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Reply #705 - May 26, 2014, 05:02 PM

i think i'd rather have a fist in the face than a patronizing, demeaning tap with a miswak or a bunch of soft grass lol
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Reply #706 - May 26, 2014, 05:03 PM

thanks yeah i love that pic

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Reply #707 - May 26, 2014, 05:04 PM

I hate the whole treat woman like a child thing, so medieval

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Reply #708 - May 26, 2014, 05:05 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on May 26, 2014, 04:56 PM
I think so too, but I'm talking about the level of criticism. If the punishment is light tap Islam shouldn't be criticized for physically beating up women (implying that they are actually harshly beaten) but they should only be criticized of light tapping.

Yeah, because as we all know, light tapping is all it takes to make a woman compliant after you've tried everything else. The verse obviously must mean light tapping.

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Reply #709 - May 26, 2014, 05:11 PM

It surely sounds stupid but like I said, Job in the Quran hits his wife gently with green grass and Ibn Kathir further mentions this. I don't get the logic but it seems that it's not meant to be hard strikes.

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Reply #710 - May 26, 2014, 05:17 PM

Can you quote the verse that tells you how to deal with disobedient husbands please?

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Reply #711 - May 26, 2014, 05:21 PM

Dear Ishina, I'm not saying women should be punished. I know I've said stupid things about women but I still don't think men should punish wives, so I don't know where is that comment coming from. How does it affect this question whether Quran tells women to beat up their husbands or not?

I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
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Reply #712 - May 26, 2014, 05:23 PM

Ah man wtf, I just spent ages typing a post for you SM and it disappeared... let me try again.

"ask whether there was any killings ordered by Mo that were ordered only because someone made fun of him etc. and not for legit reasons such as trying to kill him or his people."

"Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has really hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you like me to kill him?" He replied in the affirmative. So, Muhammad bin Maslama went to him (i.e. Ka'b) and said, "This person (i.e. the Prophet) has put us to task and asked us for charity." Ka'b replied, "By Allah, you will get tired of him." Muhammad said to him, "We have followed him, so we dislike to leave him till we see the end of his affair." Muhammad bin Maslama went on talking to him in this way till he got the chance to kill him."

Muhammad ordered this killing on the basis of defamation, the victim apparently used to write explicit poetry against Muhammad & Muslim women.
Yasir Qadhi (an Islamic Scholar) has talked about this at length, you can find his works on YouTube.

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Reply #713 - May 26, 2014, 05:27 PM

SM, here are some of my thoughts (regarding 4:34)

There are two Islamic claims which are relevant to this:

- Word of the Qur'an is timeless.
- Qur'an preaches equality.

An-Nisa, 34 only prescribes what men can do to "their" women. It doesn't say anything about what Women can do to men in this context. The rule of thumb within Quranic exegesis tends to be that everything is "halal" unless Allah says otherwise.
Allah doesn't say anything about Women being able to retaliate so...
If the notion of timeless equality is to hold true, then we should be CERTAIN about these matters (I.e. we should be told that Women can retaliate).
Allah has also failed to notice that times can indeed change, a woman can quite easily be the breadwinner whilst the man is the dependent.

Secondly, if the Qur'an is timeless- then this notion of the woman being the subordinate still holds true. I personally don't use any verse in order to "demonise" Muslims- I'd prefer to have a discussion.

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Reply #714 - May 26, 2014, 05:35 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on May 26, 2014, 05:21 PM
Dear Ishina, I'm not saying women should be punished. I know I've said stupid things about women but I still don't think men should punish wives, so I don't know where is that comment coming from. How does it affect this question whether Quran tells women to beat up their husbands or not?

I'm speaking to your point. You are implying that we should dial back our criticism if the Quran only says tap lightly instead of beat. My response is that the idea that a husband should be the dealer of punishment to a wife is a repugnant idea worthy of my most fervent criticism. I see no compelling reason to tone down my criticism, even in the unlikely event that one could convince me the verse means tap lightly instead of beat.

The Quran is a garbled incoherent mess at the best of times, but to argue that the verse says tap lightly instead of beat would be to reduce it to comedic absurdity. It would amount to the person forfeiting their privilege of being considered a reasonable adult by me.

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Reply #715 - May 26, 2014, 05:36 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on May 26, 2014, 05:11 PM
It surely sounds stupid but like I said, Job in the Quran hits his wife gently with green grass and Ibn Kathir further mentions this. I don't get the logic but it seems that it's not meant to be hard strikes.

There is no scholarly consensus that it has to be with miswack or grass or something similar, infact there are a variety of Hadiths that show the companions of Mohammed beating their wives violently, there is no sunnah or Hadith about the beating being a tap with a little instrument or something similar either.

I have not found anything about Ibn kathir saying it should be with green grass.
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Reply #716 - May 26, 2014, 05:52 PM

^ Yep. Does anyone remember this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKBmHWUSJI4

They try their best to make this concept as harmless and as reasonable as possible, and it's still awful--and his opinion at best. The fact that it does not specify anything about the severity of the beating should be enough to condemn Islam as responsible for all of the beatings on the spectrum, including the most severe beatings, Siunaa.
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Reply #717 - May 26, 2014, 05:55 PM

Haven't seen it, but what I have done is discussed it with Muslim women. From my experience, they try their best to reword the verse in order to eliminate any root which could suggest that "hitting her" is a plausibility.

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Reply #718 - May 26, 2014, 05:57 PM

yep in the quran reprimanding a wife is left open to interpretation, as is everything in that book..
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Reply #719 - May 26, 2014, 05:59 PM

If you want to piss off Qur'an & Hadith Muslims, tell them that you are a Quranist who rejects praying 5 times a day.

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