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Theme Changer

 Topic: Help Me!

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  • Help Me!
     Reply #120 - February 08, 2014, 05:48 PM
    Siunaa Maailmaa

    You said "it's the uncertainty". But that doesn't explain anything. So what if you are uncertain? What's the problem? Like I said, either way, whether there is a god or not, you are not going to hell.

    Then you said "i have big fear of death", but as far as i can tell that has absolutely nothing to do with your problem of uncertainty of whether or not god exists. I mean, WHY do you fear death? What's the problem?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #121 - February 08, 2014, 06:32 PM
    I think Siunaa, he has some problems to unload his mind from the disturbing impressions of the Hell, Heaven, Authenticity of the Qur'an and God..
    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
  • Help Me!
     Reply #122 - February 08, 2014, 06:54 PM
    Quote from: josephus on February 08, 2014, 02:15 PM
    Siunaa

    I guess that anytime anyone bets successfully on a horse or greyhound race they're displaying something remarkable then. Guessing the winner in a two-horse race is the same as correctly guessing heads or tails. It's only impressive if you've got the intellectual capacity of a shrimp.  Let's have a quick look at Sura 30 - "The Greeks have been vanquished in the nearer part of the land; and after their vanquishing, they shall be the victors in a few years." ( Arberry ) Not very specific as prophecy goes - and given the 1100 years of periodic Greece/Rome vs Persia conflicts dating back to 500 BCE, something of a banal observation.


    I don't really know if those are comparable. Few differences are that in a race there is always a winner, it's much smaller scale thing and it's not a big deal if you fail the guess. There was the credibility of his prophethood and wasn't Rome very heavy underdog because of their previous loss?

    Quote
    If there weren't mountains than that would meant that there were no plate tectonics - and that the convective heat engine of the earth's interior wasn't functioning; there's one planet that fits that description in the solar system, which is marginally closer to the sun than the earth - Venus, a world as close to hell that anyone can imagine.  I read your link as far as its misdescription and misunderstanding of plate tectonics suggesting mountains are stabilizers of the earth made it necessary - it took 5 seconds to skim to the howling errors being reported as facts. You're relying on sources that have no understanding of science and have little to no understanding of ancient texts, the Quran included. Why on earth are you giving them any credibility?


    Because I'm scared wuss :p
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #123 - February 09, 2014, 01:12 PM
    Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 08, 2014, 06:54 PM
    I don't really know if those are comparable. Few differences are that in a race there is always a winner, it's much smaller scale thing and it's not a big deal if you fail the guess. There was the credibility of his prophethood and wasn't Rome very heavy underdog because of their previous loss?

    Because I'm scared wuss :p


    It is very comparable. Mo made a guess about two factions that covered a 6 year span. He didnt even say where they would lose, how, why, etc. You think this is some how a miracle, Yet a person betting on a horse race, a specific event is not a miracle. Here is a prediction, Syria's government will lose the civil war. within 1-6 years. Both my prediction and Mo's are vague and lack detail. A 50/50 chance is well within random chance, ie guessing. Especially if I am vague enough.

    Go look at history about the Byzantium wars, Byzantium was the underdog but from 622-627 they had a string of back to back victories. Also Persia was in economic decline. So while on a map Byzantium was the underdog factors not on the map show this was not accurate. The end of these wars was hardly one sided if you take other factors into consideration.

    There is always an underdog in any war with two factions. Rome before the fall was the underdog in many battles. In the Battle of Alesia Caesar was the underdog. Even conservative estimates put him at a 2 to 1 disadvantage. Is his victory a miracle or is there data not being presented which such a conclusion is not warranted. Caesar was also a priest, I am sure he invoked prayers and signs to his coming victory. Does his make him a prophet as well? I think you are putting to much stock in something mundane which many other people have done before and do to this day. Yet you do not give these people any credit as prophets for their predictions. Meteorologists must be prophets if they can predict it is going to rain tomorrow...
  • Help Me!
     Reply #124 - February 09, 2014, 01:29 PM
    "Meteorologists must be prophets if they can predict it is going to rain tomorrow..."

    Not in Britain!   Cheesy
  • Help Me!
     Reply #125 - February 11, 2014, 12:12 AM
    Hi, I would like to ask few questions. And if anyone cares, I'm feeling much better. I see the stupidity of Dawahganda more and more, thanks to all of you!  far away hug

    1. So what's up with the Quran's sudden change of narrative? It's really unclear when the text jumps from he to I to you to them to us to you to those and so on.
    Is this usual in Arabic?

    (this is nothing to do with miracles, just asking)

    2. As I was reading the Quran transliteration I came to conclusion that the Quran is very rhyming. Almost every word rhymes with some word close to it in the text. So is this easy in Arabic? Is it easy to create sentences with meaning that still rhyme in almost every word? In English it's of course easy to rhyme too, but to keep meaning is hard:

    "In day I lay in delay. I pay in a way today as I say O Vey."
    So that meant nothing but In Quran there are passages with as much rhyming but it actually means something. So Arabic speakers especially, make the situation clear! Is it easy to rhyme in Arabic and still have meaning?

    3. Once again with the orbit stuff:
    http://kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/earth-science/175-great-photos-the-quran-describes-night-and-day-

    So help me see once again, sisters and brothers. The article is quite short, so shouldn't be problem!
    4. This is about the "waters that don't mix".
    Quran 55:19-20 says:
    Quote
    "He released the two seas meeting, between both of them is a barrier not they transgress." Word to word translation
    "He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together: Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress" Yusuf Ali translation


    and here's the article (also short) about it:
    http://kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/picture-a-verse/837-a-river-that-flows-in-the-depths-of-the-sea

    5. 42 days of embryology (once again, very short):
    http://kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/picture-a-verse/836-a-great-smile-of-a-42-day-fetus


    It's 2:10 (at night) in here so I might miss some obvious mistakes. Thanks to all of you for your support in my mental growth and liberation from the chains of my mind. Struggle is not over yet but I wouldn't be here without you.
    Good night.
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #126 - February 11, 2014, 01:08 AM
    Siunaa,

    I have a new theory. You are lying to us about your intentions.

    I say this because you've evaded the important questions posed to you here about what your problem is, and you've gone back to repeating the same stuff as before.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #127 - February 11, 2014, 06:27 AM
    3. Still not buying it. The Geocentric model was dominate before and after Mo. Muslims astronomers furthered the Ptolemaic model for centuries. If you wish to ignore history behind the geocentric and heliocentric models so be it. The article is wrong about the speed at which the core of the earth spins. All I see is the articles takes one word here and there then proceeds to jam as much scientific information into to these words as possible.

    4. This "river" is an ocean current, at least this what it looks like to me. The picture has no cited sources, it is just a color coded picture with no information on what the colors mean. This is typical of the shoddy work of amateur apologists. It makes claims, claims experts say X but provides not one single source to back it up.

    5. The verse from the hadith is wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_development Many of the parts it mentioned have no even began to form let alone are formed within 42 days. The picture is used to label different parts in error. What is seen as the eyes are not eyes but optic cups https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optic_cup_(embryology). Arms and legs are still budding not fully formed.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #128 - February 11, 2014, 10:30 AM
    Siunaa

    1) There are a number of possibilities - from poetic device ( the decentering of the subject ) to a problem with the text that scholars in the classical era were unable to resolve, and, given the fetishization of the received text, it can be perilous for contemporary Muslim scholars to apply form/source/literary/recensional/historical/philological etc critical techniques in an effort to untangle textual problems.

    2) Parts of the Quran are poetry/poetic expression. The Iliad and the Odyssey, stemming from an oral bardic tradition, are written ( c. 700BCE, at least 1300 years prior to the writing/compilation of the Quran )  in Greek hexameter verse - those texts have a poetic structure, rhyme, and are readily comprehensible. Poetry is a common mode of expression in the ancient world - the Quran is, arguably, the LAST ancient text - and there is nothing especially remarkable per se about the poetry of the Quran. Again, there's a fetishization that is deeply unhistorical and "isolationist" inherent in your question.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #129 - February 11, 2014, 10:59 AM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on February 11, 2014, 01:08 AM
    Siunaa,

    I have a new theory. You are lying to us about your intentions.

    I say this because you've evaded the important questions posed to you here about what your problem is, and you've gone back to repeating the same stuff as before.


    What do you mean? I answer the questions asked as well as I can and I have no hidden agenda, if that is what you meant by me lying about my intentions. Like I've said few times, I ask about these "miracles" because it's the only way I can get free and have no "what if" thoughts in the back of my mind.
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #130 - February 11, 2014, 11:01 AM
    Siunaa

    4) Read the whole of Sura 55 - it's a thanksgiving hymn to the lord God the creator who has delights in store for you ( if you're a guy ) in paradise, IF you fear the Lord; the version given by Arberry is marvellous. The two seas metaphor - and it's a poetic metaphor, not a naturalistic description - is known from deep antiquity; it's the sweet waters and the bitter waters that are separated by dry land. If you have any familiarity with the relevant ancient texts you'll see and hear the echoes of Job, Psalms, Song of Songs, Proverbs and Canaanite hymns.

    Anyone trying to "force" a fragment of the poem that is Sura 55 into a scientific context has no sympathetic or imaginative or human or scholarly insight into the words, or the sentiments conveyed by the words. The writer of your link has no evident understanding of science, nor does he have any understanding of the text that he's cited; it's an utterly dismal reflection of a creative human collapse of reading, knowledge, reason, imagination, insight and integrity - why are you giving him any credibility?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #131 - February 11, 2014, 11:36 AM
    Who are you, Josephus? A classicist, obviously.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #132 - February 11, 2014, 11:52 AM
    David

    Not a classicist - although I do enjoy reading classical texts, and can dimly remember some Latin I learnt in school.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #133 - February 11, 2014, 01:07 PM
    Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 11, 2014, 10:59 AM
    What do you mean? I answer the questions asked as well as I can and I have no hidden agenda, if that is what you meant by me lying about my intentions. Like I've said few times, I ask about these "miracles" because it's the only way I can get free and have no "what if" thoughts in the back of my mind.

    We asked you basic questions about what your fear is from. You didn't answer.

    Somebody suggested that maybe you fear death. You didn't confirm or contradict that.

    I suggested that maybe you fear that you're going to go to hell, but you said yourself that you are good and that you would go to heaven  if there really existed a god, heaven, and hell.

    Why aren't you addressing WHY you are scared?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #134 - February 11, 2014, 03:51 PM
    Quote
    We asked you basic questions about what your fear is from. You didn't answer.

    Somebody suggested that maybe you fear death. You didn't confirm or contradict that.

    I suggested that maybe you fear that you're going to go to hell, but you said yourself that you are good and that you would go to heaven  if there really existed a god, heaven, and hell.

    Why aren't you addressing WHY you are scared?


    There has been some misunderstanding about this, because I thought I answered everything but I guess I have answered besides the point.

    -So, I have many confirmed that I'm afraid of death.
    -And yes, I confirmed many times that I'm afraid of death especially because of hell (though I'm slightly afraid of reincarnation or that everyhting just ends, but worst is obviously hell and it is the one which haunts me).
    -I said that I see myself as quite good person, but according to many religions there are sins that I commit such as premarital sexuality, not condemning homosexuality, not praying or doing some rituals and not following that religion, thus I am terrible person according to these religions.

    So is there something besides these that you wish to know? Smiley
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #135 - February 11, 2014, 03:58 PM
    Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 11, 2014, 03:51 PM
    There has been some misunderstanding about this, because I thought I answered everything but I guess I have answered besides the point.

    -So, I have many confirmed that I'm afraid of death.
    -
    Quote
    And yes, I confirmed many times that I'm afraid of death especially because of hell (though I'm slightly afraid of reincarnation or that everyhting just ends, but worst is obviously hell and it is the one which haunts me).

    -I said that I see myself as quite good person, but according to many religions there are sins that I commit such as premarital sexuality, not condemning homosexuality, not praying or doing some rituals and not following that religion, thus I am terrible person according to these religions.
     

    As long as those religions are NOT YOUR RELIGIONS., why worry about them?  And what religious books/scriptures/stories of hell did your/taught /follow and believe when you were a  kid in Siunaa ??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Help Me!
     Reply #136 - February 11, 2014, 04:11 PM
    Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 11, 2014, 03:51 PM
    There has been some misunderstanding about this, because I thought I answered everything but I guess I have answered besides the point.

    -So, I have many confirmed that I'm afraid of death.
    -And yes, I confirmed many times that I'm afraid of death especially because of hell (though I'm slightly afraid of reincarnation or that everyhting just ends, but worst is obviously hell and it is the one which haunts me).
    -I said that I see myself as quite good person, but according to many religions there are sins that I commit such as premarital sexuality, not condemning homosexuality, not praying or doing some rituals and not following that religion, thus I am terrible person according to these religions.

    So is there something besides these that you wish to know? Smiley

    Don't you mean "is there something besides these that you (Siunaa) need to know in order to solve your problem?"

    In other words, what (knowledge) would solve your problem?

    On a narrower topic, you said that you see yourself as good, but according to many religions some of what you do is considered bad. So that raises the question: Why do those religions think that some of the things you do are bad, when *you* think they are good?

    This raises the question: IF those things are bad, THEN that means that they are harmful in some way. Do you agree with this? If not, why not?

    If you agree with that, then my next question is: IF those things are harmful, THEN it's possible to explain the harm. Do you agree with this? If not, why not?

    If you agree with that, then my next question is: IF you don't have an explanation for why something is harmful (and let's say that you searched for explanations for why the thing in question is harmful), THEN you should conclude that it's not harmful. Do you agree with this? If not, why not?

    If you agree with that, then my next question is: IF you conclude that something is not harmful, and IF a religion claims that that something is a sin, THEN that means that the religion is wrong. Do you agree with this? If not, why not?

    If you agree with that, then my next question is: IF you conclude that a religion is wrong on a specific moral question, and since the religion claims omniscience/infallibility/perfection, THEN that means that all the other claims of that religion are suspect, including it's claims that there exists one or more gods, heaven, hell, prophets, etc. Do you agree with this? If not, why not?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #137 - February 11, 2014, 04:23 PM
    I'm from unreligious family like most of my generation thus I never believed in any scriptures as a child. I was of course taught Bible in school and kindergarden but it's more cultural than religious and I have no trauma from them. I was never taught about hell. Only stories/songs were how Heavenly Father loves everyone, how everyone goes to heaven, how Good Samaritan should be example for us, how Jesus gave food for hungry, how Simeon was old and wanted to die to finally get to heaven (I'm not sure if this is even from the Bible or just Finnish tradition), how Noah went to sauna (obviously Finnish tradition) and how Josef was sold, then wife of Pharaoh lied about him and he still forgave others.
    So I never believed in Christianity but I was never taught hell or wrath of God etc.

    edit: this was for Yeezevee.
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #138 - February 11, 2014, 04:37 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on February 11, 2014, 04:11 PM
    Don't you mean "is there something besides these that you (Siunaa) need to know in order to solve your problem?"

    In other words, what (knowledge) would solve your problem?


    -I'm solving my problems very well and it's thanks to all of you. I just need to read more these supposed miracles and the more I see them the more I realize how unimpressive they are, and I need CEMB to help me see. Like I said, I'm better now and getting better.

    Quote
    This raises the question: IF those things are bad, THEN that means that they are harmful in some way. Do you agree with this? If not, why not?


    -This is what I think also but sometimes this "God knows better what is harmful" gets me.


    I think you have valid logic and I agree with your points. I just want you to understand that fear is not a thing that leaves with one or few good comments, it's a long process.
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #139 - February 11, 2014, 04:40 PM
    Siunaa Maailmaa

    IF "God knows better what is harmful", THEN he would explain *why* the things in question are harmful. Do you agree with this? If not, why not?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #140 - February 11, 2014, 04:42 PM
    Siunaa Maailmaa

    IF God knows better what is harmful, and since knowing what's harmful *means* having explanations for why the things in question are harmful, and since the religious books don't explain anything about why the things in question are harmful, THEN those books are junk. Do you agree? If not, why not?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #141 - February 11, 2014, 04:49 PM
    Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa
    I just need to read more these supposed miracles and the more I see them the more I realize how unimpressive they are, and I need CEMB to help me see.

    Why do you need that? Can you explain?

    You seem to be saying that you need to be impressed by something in order to believe it.

    So that raises the question: Is it impressive if a book makes UNEXPLAINED claims about things being harmful?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #142 - February 11, 2014, 05:13 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on February 11, 2014, 04:40 PM
    Siunaa Maailmaa

    IF "God knows better what is harmful", THEN he would explain *why* the things in question are harmful. Do you agree with this? If not, why not?

    IF God knows better what is harmful, and since knowing what's harmful *means* having explanations for why the things in question are harmful, and since the religious books don't explain anything about why the things in question are harmful, THEN those books are junk. Do you agree? If not, why not?


    I think so, both of these.
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #143 - February 11, 2014, 05:16 PM
    Siunaa Maailmaa

    Why do you fear the idea that death is the end and that there is nothing after that? What's bad about it?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #144 - February 11, 2014, 05:19 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on February 11, 2014, 04:49 PM
    Why do you need that? Can you explain?

    You seem to be saying that you need to be impressed by something in order to believe it.

    So that raises the question: Is it impressive if a book makes UNEXPLAINED claims about things being harmful?


    Nope. It's just that my soul doesn't get any rest if there is always this seed of a doubt whether Quran is miracle or not. The more I read and analyze with you all, the more I realize how stupid this stuff is. I have made the mistake now 2 or 3 times that I have gotten to this mental location (where I am now) and then stopped reading and studying the Quran and Islam, just when I was about to get liberation from this crap. Now I will not make the same mistake and I will drive through it with your help, so I can finally rest knowing that this religion doesn't haunt me anymore.
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #145 - February 11, 2014, 05:21 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on February 11, 2014, 05:16 PM
    Siunaa Maailmaa

    Why do you fear the idea that death is the end and that there is nothing after that? What's bad about it?


    I have talked about this so many times that I don't really wish to talk anymore. I just feel like it's so annoying to leave the world and just ceasing to exist. Everything just vanishes and everything just ends. No memories, no feelings, no happiness, no experiences, nothing. Just nothing.
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #146 - February 11, 2014, 05:26 PM
    Quote from: Siunaa
    It's just that my soul doesn't get any rest if there is always this seed of a doubt whether Quran is miracle or not.

    Then maybe your real problem is not about the Quran, and instead your problem is related to *how to deal with uncertainty*.

    I mean, are there other things (or decisions) in your life that you are uncertain of, and because of the uncertainty you get a bad feeling about it?

    What do you think?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #147 - February 11, 2014, 05:27 PM
    Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 11, 2014, 05:21 PM
    I have talked about this so many times that I don't really wish to talk anymore. I just feel like it's so annoying to leave the world and just ceasing to exist. Everything just vanishes and everything just ends. No memories, no feelings, no happiness, no experiences, nothing. Just nothing.

    You also had no memories, no feelings, no happiness, no experiences, nothing, BEFORE you were born.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #148 - February 11, 2014, 05:29 PM
    Quote from: Siunaa
    It's just that my soul doesn't get any rest if there is always this seed of a doubt whether Quran is miracle or not.

    Is it miraculous if a book makes *unexplained* claims about things being harmful?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #149 - February 11, 2014, 05:32 PM
    Siunaa want gaining knowledge which his soul is really searching for, is himself. .
    Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
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