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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Imagine in the future we have medical technology that allows us to live forever. And say it's so far in the future that it only costs $1 per year. Say there is a 70 year old who is contemplating suicide. see my post below for context.
  • Don't suicide because family will be sad.
  • Suicide.

 Topic: Suicide or not?

 (Read 28498 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 34 5 ... 9 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #60 - February 09, 2014, 03:36 AM
    No I don't.  Why don't you give me your perspective and answer?  By the way, I wouldn't be in favor of letting even my 30 year old son or daughter, if I had one, offing themselves.  Who would?
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #61 - February 09, 2014, 03:57 AM
    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 03:36 AM
    No I don't.  Why don't you give me your perspective and answer?  By the way, I wouldn't be in favor of letting even my 30 year old son or daughter, if I had one, offing themselves.  Who would?


    My answer, as stated earlier, is that someone is one's sane mind; ie not a minor who has not reached an age of full mental maturity, should have a right of self determination when it comes to their continued existence on the planet. I still can't really think of any situations where that doesn't apply.

    You don't have to be in favor of an action, to understand that it's a fundamental right of self-determination to choose to cease existence. Do you similarly think that you have a right to prevent your adult child from taking other decisions that you would disapprove of, or otherwise might cause them suffering? For example, if they chose to enter a relationship with someone who you thought was bad news?
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #62 - February 09, 2014, 04:06 AM
    Well, first of all, you realize being a "minor" in most jurisdictions is not the indication of being of sane and mature mind, as in being responsible for one's own actions, hence the reason minors can still be sent to maximum penitentiaries and such.
    Second of all, most suicidal people are not insane, they're perfectly sane people who want to end their life for either physical or emotional pain. 

    Also, not that I disagree that it should be, but where is it a fundamental right?  I mean under which jurisdiction?  Just curious, because even in jurisdictions with voluntary assisted suicide laws this isn't the case.

    Quote
    Do you similarly think that you have a right to prevent your adult child from taking other decisions that you would disapprove of


    If they're going to kill someone, yes.
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #63 - February 09, 2014, 04:20 AM
    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 04:06 AM
    Well, first of all, you realize being a "minor" in most jurisdictions is not the indication of being of sane and mature mind, as in being responsible for one's own actions, hence the reason minors can still be sent to maximum penitentiaries and such.
    Second of all, most suicidal people are not insane, they're perfectly sane people who want to end their life for either physical or emotional pain. 

    Also, not that I disagree that it should be, but where is it a fundamental right?  I mean under which jurisdiction?  Just curious, because even in jurisdictions with voluntary assisted suicide laws this isn't the case.


    The thread referred to one's personal opinion, hence legal precedent is not required as support. In essence the idea is that one has personal autonomy and ownership over one's physical person, and thus should not be stopped from taking actions with it that do not affect the autonomy and ownership rights of others.

    As far as the case of sane individuals ending their life, I would feel it is then a personal decision and as such a blanket restriction would not be advisable. In any case, I'm not sure how one would enforce such a restriction, as the person is no longer around to experience whatever sanction would be put in place.  Huh?

    Finally, minors have a variety of restrictions and limitations on their priveledges. For example, they are not legally allowed to enter into contracts in the US. As the rationale is that minors have not yet developed the mental capacity, similarly one could make the argument that they have not reached the mental capacity to make such a decision affecting their personal autonomy. At the end of the day, its once again a situation where any sanctions are fruitless as the person in question is not around any more for it to be exercised.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #64 - February 09, 2014, 04:25 AM
    Quote
    The thread referred to one's personal opinion, hence legal precedent is not required as support.


    Wait, wait wait...you're the one who said: "You don't have to be in favor of an action, to understand that it's a fundamental right of self-determination to choose to cease existence. " and now you're telling me legal precedent is not required?  Um...

    Quote
    In essence the idea is that one has personal autonomy and ownership over one's physical person, and thus should not be stopped from taking actions with it that do not affect the autonomy and ownership rights of others.


    That's not a concept I subscribe to though.  I don't believe anyone should be allowed to own anyone, including themselves.  I think the very concept of owning oneself is ridiculous.  Wait until you get to your 60s and 70s, you'll realize you don't own yourself.

    Quote
    As far as the case of sane individuals ending their life, I would feel it is then a personal decision and as such a blanket restriction would not be advisable. In any case, I'm not sure how one would enforce such a restriction, as the person is no longer around to experience whatever sanction would be put in place.  Huh?


    I never said anything about legal restrictions, I'm talking about societal taboos.

    Quote
    Finally, minors have a variety of restrictions and limitations on their priveledges. For example, they are not legally allowed to enter into contracts in the US. As the rationale is that minors have not yet developed the mental capacity, similarly one could make the argument that they have not reached the mental capacity to make such a decision affecting their personal autonomy. At the end of the day, its once again a situation where any sanctions are fruitless as the person in question is not around any more for it to be exercised.


    Yet they are still recognized as being able to be held accountable for their own actions, can vote in some jurisdictions, drive cars, etc.  See my point?
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #65 - February 09, 2014, 04:53 AM
    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 04:25 AM
    Wait, wait wait...you're the one who said: "You don't have to be in favor of an action, to understand that it's a fundamental right of self-determination to choose to cease existence. " and now you're telling me legal precedent is not required?  Um...


    I should have put "in my opinion". Thought it would be understood, since once again we're having a discussion about opinions.

    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 04:25 AM
    That's not a concept I subscribe to though.  I don't believe anyone should be allowed to own anyone, including themselves.  I think the very concept of owning oneself is ridiculous.  Wait until you get to your 60s and 70s, you'll realize you don't own yourself.


    So this "lack of ownership" ends up manifesting itself as what? Defaulting of ownership rights to the state, and hence their ability to prevent you from killing yourself? At the end of the day, someone exercises ownership, in the form of rights, coercion, or freedom thereof. For me, I'd rather it be the individual than external authorities.

    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 04:25 AM
    I never said anything about legal restrictions, I'm talking about societal taboos.


    I don't think this is what the original question was referring to, but I might be wrong. In any case, I'm not one to simply reinforce the unexamined taboos of society. If there's not a rational basis for it being in existence then it ought to be scrutinized.

    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 04:25 AM
    Yet they are still recognized as being able to be held accountable for their own actions, can vote in some jurisdictions, drive cars, etc.  See my point?


    Not particularly. What is it?
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #66 - February 09, 2014, 05:02 AM
    Quote
    I should have put "in my opinion". Thought it would be understood, since once again we're having a discussion about opinions.


    But rights aren't an opinion, they're legal guarantees.  I mean if you think it should be a right, fine, but I find it very problematic.

    Quote
    So this "lack of ownership" ends up manifesting itself as what? Defaulting of ownership rights to the state, and hence their ability to prevent you from killing yourself? At the end of the day, someone exercises ownership, in the form of rights, coercion, or freedom thereof. For me, I'd rather it be the individual than external authorities.


    No, it's just not owning yourself, or anyone owning you.  It's quite easy.  It's also easy to see how troublesome the concept of self-ownership can get, for example can you legally then sell yourself into slavery?  I don't think we want to live in a world of slavery. 

    Again though, it's impossible to even own oneself anyway.  You kind of remind me of those delusional libertarians who go on and on about individual freedom and autonomy, and then seek to remove the very conditions and laws that actually promote such things.

    This video goes elucidates it far better than I could: youtube.com/watch?v=p8my-gLs5KU 13:15

    Saying if you can't own yourself, someone else will, is simply ridiculous.  This isn't even an old concept, some Native American tribes wouldn't be confused by what I'm saying.  The reality is we're simply homesteading our bodies, we don't own them.  It's a fantasy.

    Quote
    I don't think this is what the original question was referring to, but I might be wrong. In any case, I'm not one to simply reinforce the unexamined taboos of society. If there's not a rational basis for it being in existence then it ought to be scrutinized.


    All groups of people and societies have taboos, for better or for worse.  It's simply a fantasy to think otherwise.  Are you against rape, murder, slavery, abuse, etc being taboo? 

    Quote
    Not particularly. What is it?


    That your distinction is ridiculous and arbitrary. 
  • Re: Suicide or not?
     Reply #67 - February 09, 2014, 05:36 AM
    Quote from: asbie on February 09, 2014, 01:47 AM
    As a serious answer to the topic I feel that a person in their sane mind should have the option to cease existence at their choosing (I'm not sure how you could stop anyone really). So regardless if they're 21 or 2,100 years old, my answer wouldn't really change and thus the situation isn't so special anyway.

    I think that's an answer to a different question though.

    If the question is should an adult have the right to die on their own terms?, I think absolutely they should have that right. It's impossible to stop people just taking that right for themselves anyway for the most part, short of imprisonment and physical immobilisation. The great hypocrisy and inhumanity of us outlawing this self-determination is that we only outlaw those who warrant that right the most, i.e., those who are physically incapable of taking their own life due to the physically crippling condition they have, a condition which is likely the reason their quality of life is so dire.

    I think the idea that we should preserve all human life is a dangerous one. As the Tony Nicklinson 'right to die' case recently proved, not all life is the same and to unthinkingly preserve all life or deem all experience equal is sometimes the most cruel thing imaginable. To call life sacred is, at best, naive and, at worse, an enabling attitude that fuels some of the worst indignities, evils and breaches of human rights that this word faces right now.

    But...

    If the question is should this individual here kill themselves?, this is asking something very different of us. This is asking of us whether or not we believe this individual is better off dead. This would require a more thorough understanding and personalised answer. Just because I believe you should have the right to choose to die, does not mean I think you should die or should kill yourself.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #68 - February 09, 2014, 05:36 AM
    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 05:02 AM
    But rights aren't an opinion, they're legal guarantees.  I mean if you think it should be a right, fine, but I find it very problematic.

    No, it's just not owning yourself, or anyone owning you.  It's quite easy.  It's also easy to see how troublesome the concept of self-ownership can get, for example can you legally then sell yourself into slavery?  I don't think we want to live in a world of slavery.  

    Again though, it's impossible to even own oneself anyway.  You kind of remind me of those delusional libertarians who go on and on about individual freedom and autonomy, and then seek to remove the very conditions and laws that actually promote such things.

    This video goes elucidates it far better than I could: youtube.com/watch?v=p8my-gLs5KU 13:15

    Saying if you can't own yourself, someone else will, is simply ridiculous.  This isn't even an old concept, some Native American tribes wouldn't be confused by what I'm saying.  The reality is we're simply homesteading our bodies, we don't own them.  It's a fantasy.

    All groups of people and societies have taboos, for better or for worse.  It's simply a fantasy to think otherwise.  Are you against rape, murder, slavery, abuse, etc being taboo?  

    That your distinction is ridiculous and arbitrary.  


    So your contention is that self-ownership is problematic because you can bring forth the example of slavery?

    In actuality that's a rather exceptional example, when in reality people can enter into a wide variety of contracts with one another, showing that in general, they do exert "ownership" of themselves.

    Your statement about societal taboos is simply an example of slippery slope fallacy, so don't really have anything to say addressing that.

    Finally, I do agree with you that an age line delineating minors from non-minors is I suppose arbitrary and ridiculous in some sense. However, it's been shown to work in a wide variety of applications for protecting the vulnerable group that is minors, and thus I'm not really bothered if you don't accept it as a reasonable distinguishing characteristic.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Suicide or not?
     Reply #69 - February 09, 2014, 05:38 AM
    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 04:25 AM
    I think the very concept of owning oneself is ridiculous.

    In what way?

    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 04:25 AM
    Wait until you get to your 60s and 70s, you'll realize you don't own yourself.

    Which says nothing about whether that's the desirable state of things. There are certainly infringements on personal autonomy that we could do without.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #70 - February 09, 2014, 05:43 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on February 09, 2014, 05:36 AM
    If the question is should this individual here kill themselves?, this is asking something very different of us. This is asking of us whether or not we believe this individual is better off dead. This would require a more thorough understanding and personalised answer. Just because I believe you should have the right to choose to die, does not mean I think you should die or should kill yourself.


    Tbf, I think the way RamiRustom structured the question ended up showing that it wasn't one of this nature, but more of the former. The hypothetical man in the scenario has seemingly made a serious contemplation, discussed it with family, friends, psychologist etc. It would appear that by that point it's clearly established whether or not he would want to take such an action. Seemingly the only pertinent question left then is should he be allowed to?
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Suicide or not?
     Reply #71 - February 09, 2014, 05:43 AM
    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 05:02 AM
    No, it's just not owning yourself, or anyone owning you.  It's quite easy.  It's also easy to see how troublesome the concept of self-ownership can get, for example can you legally then sell yourself into slavery?

    *cough* BDSM *cough*

    I don't see it as any of my business what two informed and consenting adults do to each other. As long as I'm not paying to clear up the mess they make.

    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 05:02 AM
    All groups of people and societies have taboos, for better or for worse.  It's simply a fantasy to think otherwise. Are you against rape, murder, slavery, abuse, etc being taboo? 

    Have you noticed that all of these crimes are infringements on someone else's personal liberty? You're arguing against your own case here.

    It's a very strange point you're making anyway. Just because we remove certain oppressions of our freedom does not suddenly mean all bets are off and that laws against rape and murder need to be re-evaluated.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #72 - February 09, 2014, 05:45 AM
    Actually, I fundamentally don't understand the statement that you made about not "owning oneself" when you're in your 60s-70s. Care to expand further?
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #73 - February 09, 2014, 05:45 AM
    Quote
    In what way?


    Anything that be owned can be sold.

    Quote
    Which says nothing about whether that's the desirable state of things. There are certainly infringements on personal autonomy that we could do without.


    If nature itself infringes on your "self-ownership" I think that's a sign it's not a real condition Tongue

    Quote
    Actually, I fundamentally don't understand the statement that you made about not "owning oneself" when you're in your 60s-70s. Care to expand further?


    If your body rots and dies outside of your control, it's pretty much a sign you're just homesteading your body.  Death doesn't respect property rights.

    Quote
    *cough* BDSM *cough*


    Lol, is BDSM legally recognized chattel slavery? Tongue

    Quote
    I don't see it as any of my business what two informed and consenting adults do to each other. As long as I'm not paying to clear up the mess they make.


    Then we should be able to sell ourselves into slavery.

    Quote
    Have you noticed that all of these crimes are infringements on someone else's personal liberty? You're arguing against your own case here.


    How?  What does personal liberty have to do with ownership?  If anything, I see these things as mutually exclusive.

    Quote
    It's a very strange point you're making anyway. Just because we remove certain oppressions of our freedom does not suddenly mean all bets are off and that laws against rape and murder need to be re-evaluated.


    Freedoms for some are oppressions for others though.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Edit: Didn't notice these.

    Quote
    Your statement about societal taboos is simply an example of slippery slope fallacy, so don't really have anything to say addressing that.


    No it's not.  Are you against taboos or not? 

    Quote
    Finally, I do agree with you that an age line delineating minors from non-minors is I suppose arbitrary and ridiculous in some sense. However, it's been shown to work in a wide variety of applications for protecting the vulnerable group that is minors, and thus I'm not really bothered if you don't accept it as a reasonable distinguishing characteristic.


    You've just proven its arbitrary right there.  Why do minors inherently need to be protected?
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #74 - February 09, 2014, 05:48 AM
    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 05:45 AM
    Anything that be owned can be sold.

    There is nothing immoral about prostitution.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #75 - February 09, 2014, 06:01 AM
    Quote
    There is nothing immoral about prostitution.


    Well, plenty would disagree (morals are inherently subjective), but prostitution doesn't involve selling slaves, it does involve selling services temporarily, if anything, prostitution is just putting a monetary value on normal sexual activity, which I guess actually does make it immoral in my opinion (but I'm not for prohibiting it, since it's pointless to do so in a wage based economy).  If anything, prostitution is just another form of homesteading.

    But I ask again, if one owns their own body, can they legally sell themselves into slavery?  In the Roman Empire, one could do so.  People also did this in the Ottoman Empire.
  • Re: Suicide or not?
     Reply #76 - February 09, 2014, 06:03 AM
    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 05:45 AM
    If your body rots and dies outside of your control, it's pretty much a sign you're just homesteading your body.  Death doesn't respect property rights.

    Uh. We're obviously not talking about natural deterioration. Let's keep on point.

    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 05:45 AM
    Lol, is BDSM legally recognized chattel slavery? Tongue

    I imagine it could be. I'm not sure if there is already a precedent though.

    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 05:45 AM
    Then we should be able to sell ourselves into slavery.

    If I want to do that, what business is it of yours?

    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 05:45 AM
    How?  What does personal liberty have to do with ownership?  If anything, I see these things as mutually exclusive.

    Let's not nit pick. They are interchangeable words in this context.

    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 05:45 AM
    Freedoms for some are oppressions for others though.

    It should be obvious that we are talking about freedoms no further than those that affect only us. The right to die does not fall outside of that sphere of discussion.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #77 - February 09, 2014, 06:06 AM
    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 06:01 AM
    Well, plenty would disagree (morals are inherently subjective),

    I'm willing to hear arguments to the contrary, if they exist.

    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 06:01 AM
    prostitution is just putting a monetary value on normal sexual activity, which I guess actually does make it immoral in my opinion

    How does putting monetary value on my sexual activity and offering it to someone who is willing to pay make what I am doing immoral?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #78 - February 09, 2014, 06:07 AM
    Quote
    Uh. We're obviously not talking about natural deterioration. Let's keep on point.


    Uh, yeah we are.  Explain how you own and control your own body if its very functions are outside of your control.  Do you even know of the concept of homesteading?

    Quote
    I imagine it could be. I'm not sure if there is already a precedent though.


    Then you're okay with people selling away their freedom to be a slave.  Then you just demonstrated yourself the problem with "self-ownership", specifically in regards to personal freedom.

    Quote
    If I want to do that, what business is it of yours?


    I don't want to live in a society that allows slavery.

    Quote
    Let's not nit pick. They are interchangeable words in this context.


    It's not nitpicking.  I think the very concept of "self-ownership" negates personal freedom.

    Quote
    It should be obvious that we are talking about freedoms no further than those that affect only us. The right to die does not fall outside of that sphere of discussion.


    Clearly not because you think it's okay to sell oneself into slavery, for example.  Even suicide doesn't impact just yourself.  That's a very greedy and self-centered point of view and attitude.
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #79 - February 09, 2014, 06:09 AM
    Quote
    I'm willing to hear arguments to the contrary, if they exist.


    You're not aware of people who say prostitution is "immoral"?  Give me a break.

    Quote
    How does putting monetary value on my sexual activity to someone who is willing to pay make what I am doing immoral?


    I think money is immoral.
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #80 - February 09, 2014, 06:21 AM
    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 06:07 AM
    Uh, yeah we are.  Explain how you own and control your own body if its very functions are outside of your control.  Do you even know of the concept of homesteading?

    I don't need to explain to you that by 'controlling myself' I would be referring to the elements of myself that I have the capacity to control. Your objection is noted, but I'm not sure what it adds.

    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 06:07 AM
    Then you're okay with people selling away their freedom to be a slave.  Then you just demonstrated yourself the problem with "self-ownership", specifically in regards to personal freedom.

    I don't want to live in a society that allows slavery.

    I'd argue that it's impossible to consent to slavery proper. It's a nonsensical idea. But I'm assuming you mean a looser definition of 'slavery' when you ask the question of if it should be permitted to volunteer into such an enterprise, in which case you need to stop flip-flopping between the two types and using the leverage of one to affect perspective on the other.

    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 06:07 AM
    It's not nitpicking.  I think the very concept of "self-ownership" negates personal freedom.

    How? How can me owning my own self negate my freedom to operate my own self?

    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 06:07 AM
    Clearly not because you think it's okay to sell oneself into slavery, for example.  Even suicide doesn't just impact yourself.  That's a very greedy and self-centered point of view and attitude.

    This conclusion of yours is based on several misunderstandings.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #81 - February 09, 2014, 06:26 AM
    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 06:09 AM
    You're not aware of people who say prostitution is "immoral"?  Give me a break.

    I am aware of them, yes. I am not sure if I'd call their cheap moralising and fallacious judgement froth an "argument" though. I'm certain you could do better than them. You seem like a smart person.

    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 06:09 AM
    I think money is immoral.

    Intriguing. I can't wait for the second instalment of this sentence.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #82 - February 09, 2014, 06:34 AM
    Quote
    I don't need to explain to you that by 'controlling myself' I would be referring to the elements of myself that I have the capacity to control. Your objection is noted, but I'm not sure what it adds.


    But "you" is actually just an illusion, what you really are is just a brain and neurons, and we know there's no such thing as free will, we're just biological machines executing programming, in reality you don't honestly have any control over yourself in the end.  Yet again, you don't "own" yourself, "you" are just borrowing it.  It's an uncomfortable reality.

    Quote
    I'd argue that it's impossible to consent to slavery proper. It's a nonsensical idea. But I'm assuming you mean a looser definition of 'slavery' when you ask the question of if it should be permitted to volunteer into such an enterprise, in which case you need to stop flip-flopping between the two types and using the leverage of one to affect perspective on the other.


    Wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_slavery

    Let me guess, indentured servitude is okay too?

    Quote
    How? How can me owning my own self negate my freedom to operate my own self?


    Because you can give that freedom away.

    Quote
    This conclusion of yours is based on several misunderstandings.


    Not really, unless you don't understand the concept of an externality.
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #83 - February 09, 2014, 06:38 AM
    Quote
    I am aware of them, yes. I am not sure if I'd call their cheap moralising and fallacious judgement froth an "argument" though. I'm certain you could do better than them. You seem like a smart person.


    *rolls eyes*  Something tells me you believe in objective morality. Tongue

    Quote
    Intriguing. I can't wait for the second instalment of this sentence.


    Well there is no next "installment".
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #84 - February 09, 2014, 06:39 AM
    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 06:34 AM
    But "you" is actually just an illusion, what you really are is just a brain and neurons, and we know there's no such thing as free will, we're just biological machines executing programming, in reality you don't honestly have any control over yourself in the end.  Yet again, you don't "own" yourself, "you" are just borrowing it.  It's an uncomfortable reality.

    Well, conversation over then. Everything we have just discussed is now irrelevant.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #85 - February 09, 2014, 06:43 AM
    Sorry if I seemed bullheaded, but it seems things got out of hand.  So I'll just reiterate my point: "self-ownership" is a silly concept that simply doesn't jive with biological reality and as demonstrated by you, would work to negate personal freedom.
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #86 - February 09, 2014, 06:57 AM
    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 06:43 AM
    I'm never very impressed when people give up a discussion abruptly...

    It's not that I wanted to give up the discussion. I was actually quite enjoying it. But it's gonna take a few hours to untangle the concentrated barrage of dubious, reality-undermining philosophical claims just to get back on point. I'm not sure if it's worth doing that, or worth continuing to discuss something fairly consequential with a hardline determinist who is likely to just abandon any notion of affectable reality as readily and casually as you just did.

    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 06:43 AM
    ...so I'll just reiterate my point: "self-ownership" is a silly concept that simply doesn't jive with biological reality and as demonstrated by you, would work to negate personal freedom.

    It's one thing to say it's silly and works against personal freedom, it's another to formulate a cogent explanation for why you think that's the case.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #87 - February 09, 2014, 07:05 AM
    Quote
    It's not that I wanted to give up the discussion. I was actually quite enjoying it. But it's gonna take a few hours to untangle the concentrated barrage of dubious, reality-undermining philosophical claims just to get back on point. I'm not sure if it's worth doing that, or worth continuing to discuss something fairly consequential with a hardline determinist who is likely to just abandon any notion of affectable reality as readily and casually as you just did.


    Well I edited my post, but oh well. 

    What I say conforms with biological reality.  Casual determinism is the only thing that makes sense.

    Quote
    It's one thing to say it's silly and works against personal freedom, it's another to formulate a cogent explanation for why you think that's the case.


    You've made the case for me.  If you think slavery can be done under this framework, which it can, it proves my point.
  • Re: Suicide or not?
     Reply #88 - February 09, 2014, 07:07 AM
    Quote from: EzraJT on February 09, 2014, 06:38 AM
    *rolls eyes*  Something tells me you believe in objective morality. Tongue

    Nope. And I've no idea what it was about the quoted post of mine that led you to that conclusion. Or anything I've said thus far for that matter.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Suicide or not?
     Reply #89 - February 09, 2014, 07:10 AM
    Quote
    Nope. And I've no idea what it was about the quoted post of mine that led you to that conclusion. Or anything I've said thus far for that matter.


    You just seem to be dismissive of what morality really is.

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