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Theme Changer

 Topic: Birthing H. Neanderthalensis

 (Read 7386 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     OP - February 21, 2014, 08:05 PM
    This news is a bit old and so far not much progress has been made (as far as I know) however I was just interested in the idea.
    http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-01/harvard-professor-seeks-adventurous-woman-birth-neanderthal

    What would think of the idea of a Neanderthal, who has very H. sapien-like features as well as a well developed brain (they even have higher cranial volume than us), living among us? Would it even be ethical considering he would be an outcast and a scientific experiment?
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #1 - February 21, 2014, 08:18 PM
    Out of curiosity, I want to see this happen.
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #2 - February 22, 2014, 06:59 AM
    It would be pretty interesting, I agree.
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #3 - February 22, 2014, 07:07 AM
    It'd be interesting to care for a Neanderthal child
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #4 - February 22, 2014, 09:08 AM
    What would concern me would be the life of the Neanderthal. Will s/he be the only one? Will s/he be able to get married? Say s/he is 30 years old, what's the situation? Locked in a lab or job in a bank?

    Legally how would s/he be classed? A different race? A none human person? What happens if the clone of a dead species falls in love?

    Humans and Neanderthals are incredibly similar. It's not the same as bringing back the woolly mammoth, there's more to think about.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #5 - February 22, 2014, 09:18 AM
    Why would he/she be allowed to marry or be a citizen?
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #6 - February 22, 2014, 09:22 AM
    Why should any of us?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #7 - February 22, 2014, 09:27 AM
    Oh wow, I just realized I made a typo, I meant to say: "Why wouldn't he/she be allowed to marry or be a citizen?"
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #8 - February 22, 2014, 09:51 AM
    Well, if you're going to ask why a Neanderthal would be allowed to marry or have citizenship, I have to ask why any of us should?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #9 - February 22, 2014, 10:01 AM
    No I asked the exact opposite, or meant to anyway.
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #10 - February 22, 2014, 10:03 AM
    Ah. Well I suppose it comes back to this.

    Quote
    Say s/he is 30 years old, what's the situation? Locked in a lab or job in a bank?

    Legally how would s/he be classed? A different race? A none human person?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #11 - February 22, 2014, 10:07 AM
    And I meant to ask, why wouldn't he/she be allowed to marry, and etc?  A typo messed it all up Tongue
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #12 - February 22, 2014, 10:14 AM
    Quote
    Legally how would s/he be classed? A different race? A none human person?

    This is a genuine question. Neanderthals are not modern homo sapiens. They are incredibly similar to us, but they are a sub-species of human.

    Our laws make a distinction between human and non human. If you have a wild animal terrorising people, you don't slap it in cuffs and charge it with a crime, you ring animal control. So it's a very important thing to ask. Legally how would s/he be classed? A different race? A none human person? An animal that just happens to be closer to us than a chimp?

    I know you could make the argument that if we can procreate together then we aren't a separate species, but it's a question worth asking. The most important question to ask if we actually do bring them back to life.

    Is a Neanderthal a human being?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #13 - February 22, 2014, 10:16 AM
    Actually if they're self-aware human beings, then yes they'd be granted the same rights.  Not that this would ever be a serious consideration anyway, because if this did ever happen, there would be too many people obsessed and enamored with the person that no one would harm him or her.  He or she would probably get their own TV show and YouTube channel to say the least...
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #14 - February 22, 2014, 10:18 AM
    A number of species are self aware. We don't grant them the same rights/protections we do humans.

    Quote
    if they're self-aware human beings

    Exactly. Are they human beings? Who decides?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #15 - February 22, 2014, 10:27 AM
    You're absolutely wrong.  Humans are the only "sapient" self-aware species, but even then some nations actually grant all the great apes and other intelligent animals protections and rights (though not full rights which would be silly).  I'm not for animal rights mind you, but this is simply a fact.

    Quote
    Exactly. Are they human beings? Who decides?


    It's in their name: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal  They're classified as human beings, this isn't up for debate.
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #16 - February 22, 2014, 11:17 AM
    ^
    Humans are not the only self-aware species. Though most animals probably do not have the same level of sapience as us  mirror tests have shown self-awareness in other animals, most notably other primates.

    http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0060202

    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on February 22, 2014, 10:18 AM
    Exactly.
    Are they human beings? Who decides?

    Yes. There a subspecies of H. sapien and can interbreed with us (in fact, all non-Sub Saharan Africans have a small percentage of Neanderthal heredity). Their cranial volume is larger than ours (though the exact amount of "intelligence" they possess is unknown).
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #17 - February 22, 2014, 11:33 AM
    It depends then on how you define "self-aware".  If the definition is they can recognize themselves somewhat in a mirror, yes you're correct, but that's a very broad and rather silly definition.  Dogs and cats, for example, can at times recognize themselves but they're not sapient, and it would be impossible to grant them rights as they could not have the responsibility to do so.  Obviously humans can, for the most part.
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #18 - February 22, 2014, 07:32 PM
    If an individual can process, identify, store information, and recognize differences, they are self-aware. Thats the definition among some psychologists and biologists.

    Obviously they do not have the same level of consciousness so yes, they wouldn't have the same rights. However, a Neanderthal may just be as intelligent as us so how would you justify using her/him for scientific experiment. Though it would be extremely interesting to see what we can learn from her/him, it does feel a tiny bit wrong. Imagine being the only of your species, treated like a lab rat, be an outcast, and have very little freedom.

    On a lighter note, imagine the Dawahgandists trying to recruit you as the first Muslim Neanderthal  Cheesy.
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #19 - February 22, 2014, 10:47 PM
    Quote
    If an individual can process, identify, store information, and recognize differences, they are self-aware. Thats the definition among some psychologists and biologists.


    Which most of the species listed in your link cannot do, not to any serious extent.  Chimpanzees and dolphins yes, dogs and cats, no.  This is of course a huge matter of debate and nothing is definitive (as is typical with biology and soft sciences like psychology).

    Not that it matters anyway, I'm very much a "fuck other species" kind of person and could care less about animals.

    Quote
    Obviously they do not have the same level of consciousness so yes, they wouldn't have the same rights. However, a Neanderthal may just be as intelligent as us so how would you justify using her/him for scientific experiment. Though it would be extremely interesting to see what we can learn from her/him, it does feel a tiny bit wrong. Imagine being the only of your species, treated like a lab rat, be an outcast, and have very little freedom.


    We experiment on people unwillingly all the time, especially here in the United States.
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #20 - February 22, 2014, 11:59 PM
    Quote from: Descent on February 22, 2014, 11:17 AM
    Yes. There a subspecies of H. sapien and can interbreed with us (in fact, all non-Sub Saharan Africans have a small percentage of Neanderthal heredity).

    Don't a large percentage of humans have Neanderthal DNA?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #21 - February 23, 2014, 04:11 AM
    Yes...a small amount of inter-breeding did occur. All non-Africans have a small percentage of Neanderthal DNA.

    Quote from: EzraJT on February 22, 2014, 10:47 PM
    Not that it matters anyway, I'm very much a "fuck other species" kind of person and could care less about animals.


    No, just no.

    Quote from: EzraJT on February 22, 2014, 10:47 PM
    We experiment on people unwillingly all the time, especially here in the United States.


    And that makes it ok?
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #22 - February 23, 2014, 04:30 AM
    Quote from: EzraJT on February 22, 2014, 10:47 PM
    Which most of the species listed in your link cannot do, not to any serious extent.  Chimpanzees and dolphins yes, dogs and cats, no.

    You haven't met my family dog. She's very much self aware.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #23 - February 23, 2014, 04:38 AM
    Sticking with the original topic, does anyone else think there are huge ethical questions to bringing back Neanderthals? You can't say it's the same as bringing back a woolly mammoth or a sabre-toothed tiger, you just can't. A Neanderthal can look in the mirror and know s/he is simply an experiment. A Neanderthal can feel the aching loneliness of knowing you're the only one of your race/species. A Neanderthal can question their own existence at being a product of scientific curiosity. What questions would that bring?

    Imagine being not only a clone but the only living member of a long dead race.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #24 - February 23, 2014, 04:39 AM
    Quote
    We experiment on people unwillingly all the time, especially here in the United States.

     Huh?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #25 - February 23, 2014, 04:57 AM
    Just noticed Descent echoed my own thoughts on Neanderthals, plus had to tell me twice that all non Sub Saharan Africans have Neanderthal DNA. Sorry mate, I usually pay more attention than this.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #26 - February 23, 2014, 07:21 AM
    Quote
    Huh?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_experimentation_in_the_United_States

    Where do you think LSD came from? Tongue

    Quote
    No, just no.


    Yes, just yes.  I'd harpoon every whale in the ocean to save one human being, and screw you if you wouldn't.  Human beings come first.

    Quote
    And that makes it ok?


    I never put a value judgement on it, but most people would say it's okay.  Do this experiment, ask the average person on the street if they think prisoners should be experimented on, and they'll most likely say yes, which we actually do already anyway.

    Quote
    You haven't met my family dog. She's very much self aware.


    And there's a dancing raccoon in my neighborhood that can turn into a car.

    Quote
    Sticking with the original topic, does anyone else think there are huge ethical questions to bringing back Neanderthals?


    No.  There's some questions in regards to scientific curiosity and public amusement though.  Not that this would happen in any case though.
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #27 - February 23, 2014, 08:18 AM
    Quote
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_experimentation_in_the_United_States

    Where do you think LSD came from? Tongue

    Yes but you said it in a manner that said it's going on today. Haven't heard it happening lately.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #28 - February 23, 2014, 08:22 AM
    If you reject a well-sourced article on an uncontested historical and contemporary phenomenon, all I can say is, "Whatever you say fruitycakes".
  • Birthing H. Neanderthalensis
     Reply #29 - February 23, 2014, 08:25 AM
    Fruitycakes? Cheesy I do apologise for not being aware of any illegal experiments by the US government forced onto unwilling people today.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »