Why is Islam the fastest growing religion.

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- EzraJT
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Why is Islam the fastest growing religion.
Reply #30 - February 23, 2014, 12:21 AM

Then I don't understand the Europeans afraid of "Eurabia"
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Reply #31 - February 23, 2014, 12:33 AM

Who said Europeans are afraid of "Eurabia"? There is a very small minority of people in Europe who are afraid of such a development, they also belong to the far-right extremist groups.

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Reply #32 - February 23, 2014, 12:50 AM

Quote from: EzraJT on February 23, 2014, 12:21 AM
Then I don't understand the Europeans afraid of "Eurabia"

They think the continent will turn into a giant Saudi.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #33 - February 23, 2014, 03:51 AM

I am very afraid of a Muslim dominated world (or Europe). But it's probably just me buying the fear mongering campaigners.
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Reply #34 - February 23, 2014, 07:06 AM

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Who said Europeans are afraid of "Eurabia"? There is a very small minority of people in Europe who are afraid of such a development, they also belong to the far-right extremist groups.

Some of the most powerful elected political parties in Europe promote this. The National Front in France, the Danish People's Party of Denmark, the Party of Freedom in the Netherlands, the UKIP in Great Britain, Golden Dawn in Greece (who like Jobbik in my country of heritage are actually full blown Neo-Nazis who focus on all "non-whites"). It seems to be a very popular idea.

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I am very afraid of a Muslim dominated world (or Europe). But it's probably just me buying the fear mongering campaigners.

http://www.npr.org/2012/09/19/161168231/debunking-the-myth-of-the-muslim-tide

I also wouldn't care if the US became majority Muslim in any case.
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Reply #35 - February 23, 2014, 09:43 AM

Since I live in Europe (it's a whole fucking continent you know) and I'm somewhat interested in politics, I would say that this is not a "very popular belief" among the majority of regular people according to my estimation. But it is very much real to some since in the far-right extremist wing, but that is because we have a much larger problem than the US with Islamism and growing Islamic fundamentalist, both because of an immigration policy that just doesn't work, as well as the Islamist winning ground among the marginalized youth in the segregated ghettos.

When I became a Muslim about 9 years ago, there was a huge salafi inspired wave going through the larger cities. A lot of converts, and a lot of born Muslims, were turning back to their religion like full blown Islamists. An older man in my neighborhood was/is even sitting in the Shariah Courts/Al Shabab council in Somalia, I have another neighbor who had an "open house" when her son was martyred in Syria, and yet another one who is serving time for trying to attack Jyllandsposten's headquarters and kill everyone inside (you can even read about it in the news)... That should tell you a little what kind of problem Sweden, and other European countries have, with Islamists in every larger city, and why parties who promote "Eurabia" are getting more and more votes. It's not because most people actually think Muslims have some sort of "demographic warfare", it's because these are the only parties who take the Islamic/immigration threat seriously enough.

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Reply #36 - February 23, 2014, 09:58 AM

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Since I live in Europe (it's a whole fucking continent you know)

Yeah, I listed countries all over the continent to prove my point.

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I would say that this is not a "very popular belief" among the majority of regular people according to my estimation. But it is very much real to some since in the far-right extremist wing, but that is because we have a much larger problem than the US with Islamism and growing Islamic fundamentalist, both because of an immigration policy that just doesn't work, as well as the Islamist winning ground among the marginalized youth in the segregated ghettos.

Throughout most of Europe, voter turnouts are high and the majority of the electorate (especially in France, with one of the strongest "far-right" parties which is a former Neo-Nazi party) vote, and far right anti immigrant parties that preach about "Eurabia" are winning by and far (though from what I'm told they are slowly changing their rhetoric to be anti-Eastern European). So I stand by what I've said. Unless you can show some evidence otherwise?

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That should tell you a little what kind of problem Sweden, and other European countries have, with Islamists in every larger city, and why parties who promote "Eurabia" are getting more and more votes. It's not because most people actually think Muslims have some sort of "demographic warfare", it's because these are the only parties who take the Islamic/immigration threat seriously enough.

Not sure why you disputed what I said and then try to validate the beliefs of the people we're talking about.

"who take the Islamic/immigration threat seriously enough" Oh dear.

On a side note, I talked to a guy from Sweden for almost 2 years, and he would always go on about the idea of Muslim immigrants invading and taking over and making everything in shit was well, bullshit.
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Reply #37 - February 23, 2014, 12:41 PM

Quote from: EzraJT on February 23, 2014, 07:06 AM
I also wouldn't care if the US became majority Muslim in any case.

And be the next Saudi Arabia? When I mock Muslims, I want to feel safe knowing the law protects my freedom of speech. More Muslims means more Muslim-oriented laws, which is a big problem.
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Reply #38 - February 23, 2014, 12:51 PM

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And be the next Saudi Arabia? When I mock Muslims, I want to feel safe knowing the law protects my freedom of speech. More Muslims means more Muslim-oriented laws, which is a big problem.

The fact you associate all Muslim populations with Saudi Arabia says something about you.
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Reply #39 - February 23, 2014, 12:54 PM

I didn't mean it like that. I meant sharia law being imposed as it is in Iran and Saudi Arabia.
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Reply #40 - February 23, 2014, 01:01 PM

Well, again the fact you associate Muslim populations with Iran and Saudi Arabia automatically says a lot about you. Reminds me of when Bill Maher said all Muslims who take their religion seriously are going to be suicide bombers.
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Reply #41 - February 23, 2014, 01:43 PM

I don't think you understand the point being made. Shariah law, if applied correctly, is as restrictive as those two countries.
Many Muslim countries are using a different model of law, other than Shariah, especially in their criminal courts in the interests of human rights.
But there is a large growing popularity for strict interpretation and application, worldwide, as you know.
There are Shariah courts in Britiannia, and this is already affecting the rights of the populations there that are typically marginalized by Shariah, because their families and communities are forcing them to accept Shariah rulings and not allowing them to use mainstream courts.

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Reply #42 - February 23, 2014, 02:16 PM

Quote from: three on February 23, 2014, 01:43 PM
Shariah law, if applied correctly, is as restrictive as those two countries.

In Saudi Arabia's case, it is Shariah law applied incorrectly, which, for that brand, personally scares me a lot more.

One of my worst arguments when I was a Muslim was trying to say that Sharia law was fine in small communities if done by the book, so long as everyone consented and that it did not seek to apply to people who did not identify as Muslims or who became apostates. The key thing I was missing back then was the plight of children and those otherwise kept in place and made to adhere to the law, whether or not they actually consented or would consent if given some time removed from the situation.

I understand not wanting to sound very bigoted, as extreme right-wing people everywhere are sometimes fantastic at doing, Ezra, but in my opinion, even having, as three described, something like non-binding sharia courts is like putting a little black hole in the middle of a population that might keep those near from deviating or escaping, that might keep especially young persons drawn in, regardless of what options or higher courts exist outside. It's tricky.
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Reply #43 - February 23, 2014, 02:43 PM

Frankly this whole thread is loaded with fallacious ideas.

(1) The rhetoric of Islam being the fastest growing religion is worthless dawah propaganda

(2) The rhetoric of Islam being the fastest growing religion actually depicts Islam as a demographic political movement that segues directly into the perceptions that fuel right wing Geller style politics.

(3) There are aspects of Islamism in secular societies that challenge human rights and universal values of equality and secularism. That is why One Law For All exists. Sharia arbitration courts are a reality. We exist to challenge them through Universalist principles and secularism.

(4) Anyone who plays the 'you are feeding Eurabia hype' to those who challenge these precepts on this forum is in the wrong place and misunderstands what we exist for.

(5) Ex Muslim women who have experience of oppressive social structures deepened by patriarchal religious structures in secular societies suffer double silencing - from those Islamic orthodox oppression, from those who would co-opt their voices from the right and the Left - or in the case of many on the moral relativistic Left, would like to snuff out their voices and silence them completely.

We won't let that happen.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Reply #44 - February 23, 2014, 03:16 PM

Quote from: Descent on February 23, 2014, 12:41 PM
And be the next Saudi Arabia? When I mock Muslims, I want to feel safe knowing the law protects my freedom of speech. More Muslims means more Muslim-oriented laws which is a big problem.

Some proof would be nice
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Reply #45 - February 23, 2014, 03:33 PM

Quote from: billy on February 23, 2014, 02:43 PM
Frankly this whole thread is loaded with fallacious ideas.

(1) The rhetoric of Islam being the fastest growing religion is worthless dawah propaganda

(2) The rhetoric of Islam being the fastest growing religion actually depicts Islam as a demographic political movement that segues directly into the perceptions that fuel right wing Geller style politics.

(3) There are aspects of Islamism in secular societies that challenge human rights and universal values of equality and secularism. That is why One Law For All exists. Sharia arbitration courts are a reality. We exist to challenge them through Universalist principles and secularism.

(4) Anyone who plays the 'you are feeding Eurabia hype' to those who challenge these precepts on this forum is in the wrong place and misunderstands what we exist for.

(5) Ex Muslim women who have experience of oppressive social structures deepened by patriarchal religious structures in secular societies suffer double silencing - from those Islamic orthodox oppression, from those who would co-opt their voices from the right and the Left - or in the case of many on the moral relativistic Left, would like to snuff out their voices and silence them completely.

We won't let that happen.

All efforts are appreciated. There are not many rational voices on this.

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Reply #46 - February 23, 2014, 04:18 PM

Why are people even discussing things in demographic terms of Muslim's becoming majorities in societies they will not become majorities in, even to say 'It wouldn't bother me'?

What is the mindset that accedes to these discredited and stupid paradigms, which are peddled by the Islamists, Islamic evangelisers, and the Geller types?

Why frame these issues in these reductive and diversionary terms?

Its a waste of energy and it diverts attention from the real issues and feeds into irrelevant assumptions of (a) scaremongering and (b) diversion from the need to support secularism and address real issues of religious revivalism and its limitations of human rights.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Reply #47 - February 23, 2014, 05:45 PM

I didn't know there actually were sharia courts in the UK. Why (and how) does the British government allow this?
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Reply #48 - February 23, 2014, 05:52 PM

Quote from: EzraJT on February 23, 2014, 09:58 AM
Yeah, I listed countries all over the continent to prove my point.

Throughout most of Europe, voter turnouts are high and the majority of the electorate (especially in France, with one of the strongest "far-right" parties which is a former Neo-Nazi party) vote, and far right anti immigrant parties that preach about "Eurabia" are winning by and far (though from what I'm told they are slowly changing their rhetoric to be anti-Eastern European). So I stand by what I've said. Unless you can show some evidence otherwise?

Not sure why you disputed what I said and then try to validate the beliefs of the people we're talking about.

"who take the Islamic/immigration threat seriously enough" Oh dear.

On a side note, I talked to a guy from Sweden for almost 2 years, and he would always go on about the idea of Muslim immigrants invading and taking over and making everything in shit was well, bullshit.

Again, people in general, even those who vote for the parties you mentioned, do not fully believe in a "Eurabia". They do have concerns about Islamism and irresponsible immigration policy, and that is very different from the crazy conspiracy theory of Eurabia. And yeah, I know what kind of guy he is the one you talked to. He is probably one of those loosers who hang out at Flashback day in and day out, and all he talks about is immigrants and the threat to the Swede race. They are a pathetic bunch and represent in no way the majority view. So you can stand by whatever the hell you want, but I live here and I see and hear with my own eyer and ears.

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Reply #49 - February 23, 2014, 05:53 PM

Quote from: Descent on February 23, 2014, 03:51 AM
I am very afraid of a Muslim dominated world (or Europe). But it's probably just me buying the fear mongering campaigners.

It's healthy to be wary of bad ideologies. Islam is a particularly terrible one. Disastrous for any population that adopts it. But it's not gonna take over the world. Islam cannot even sustain the fraction of the planet it currently claims. It's not a unifying ideology. It fosters insecurity and instability. It doesn't adapt or innovate. It's short-sighted and stagnant. Look at its fruits in the world. At its very best, it's playing catch up to the rest of the world, but doing so on a treadmill of its own creating.

Meanwhile, the biggest threat to Europe is homegrown far-right extremism and nationalism. That's something that can certainly take over Europe and wants to just as much as the most radical fringes of Islam does.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Reply #50 - February 23, 2014, 05:54 PM

Quote from: lua on February 23, 2014, 02:16 PM
In Saudi Arabia's case, it is Shariah law applied incorrectly, which, for that brand, personally scares me a lot more.

In what way is it "incorrect", and how would "correct" shariah be applied according to you or what you believe in "correct" shariah and Islam?

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Reply #51 - February 23, 2014, 05:55 PM

Quote from: Descent on February 23, 2014, 05:45 PM
I didn't know there actually were sharia courts in the UK. Why (and how) does the British government allow this?

You even find a bit of Sharia law and lawyers who specialize in it in American courts. These tend to be for things like international law. The only examples I have heard of where Sharia law was applied and legally enforced in cases without an international party were ones regarding mahr.
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Reply #52 - February 23, 2014, 06:02 PM

Well one sharia clause is that no country fully adopts sharia whilst there is still a distribution of pornography. Since muslims tend to be the highest consumers of porn (per capita) we can say that there is no "ideal sharia state.
However, I wish that this ideal state is never created.

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Reply #53 - February 23, 2014, 06:03 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on February 23, 2014, 05:54 PM
In what way is it "incorrect", and how would "correct" shariah be applied according to you or what you believe in "correct" shariah and Islam?

Correct is hard to pin: you have some people who will say correct sharia has to come from the guidelines of the Quran, and others who say you have to incorporate the hadith, so carving out something that anyone could consider very correct would be a whole lot of work, and I could see a few "valid" systems coming out of it. Back when I was a believer, I was of the opinion that punishable crimes must be limited to the ones in the Quran.

The thing about Saudi Arabia that makes it so much worse than either one of the above systems is that they have no codified law. They claim sharia, but the courts' opinions come from the whims of the judges, making it nearly impossible to fight a charge, even if it had no basis in Islam. Additionally, you have seen a rash of activists recently charged with crimes basically catered to their situation--ones that never existed before--just to get these people out of the public eye.

I, personally, would rather go into a country where the rules were the rules, unfair or not, and that they all had to have a concrete basis in Islam (which classically dictates that what is not expressly forbidden is permissible), than be at the mercy of a legal system that is fluid, confusing, and, above all, one that will change with a snap of the king's fingers.
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Reply #54 - February 23, 2014, 06:17 PM

Higher birth rates does explain it, and despite looking, I haven't been able to find any good evidence that large numbers of people are converting.
We do have good evidence that the average fertility rate for Muslims is higher than others, so I call it mystery solved.

it also depends on how you define fastest growing. I think there are about four different definitions.
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Reply #55 - February 23, 2014, 10:09 PM

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We do have good evidence that the average fertility rate for Muslims is higher than others, so I call it mystery solved.

So I guess if I want kids, a Muslim chick is a better bet.

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Why are people even discussing things in demographic terms of Muslim's becoming majorities in societies they will not become majorities in, even to say 'It wouldn't bother me'?

Because people, even here, seem to take it seriously. People take it seriously enough that political parties on that platform win elections and people write entire books on the subject. It may be silly, but no one ever said people don't believe in silly things.

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Again, people in general, even those who vote for the parties you mentioned, do not fully believe in a "Eurabia". They do have concerns about Islamism and irresponsible immigration policy, and that is very different from the crazy conspiracy theory of Eurabia. And yeah, I know what kind of guy he is the one you talked to. He is probably one of those loosers who hang out at Flashback day in and day out, and all he talks about is immigrants and the threat to the Swede race. They are a pathetic bunch and represent in no way the majority view. So you can stand by whatever the hell you want, but I live here and I see and hear with my own eyer and ears. Smiley

They have concerns about Islam and vote in parties who claim to want to fight Islam, but this is different from doing that, which is what I said is happening in Europe, that far-right anti "islamist" and immigration parties who claim to be trying to maintain the "purity" of their culture and traditions are winning fast elections all over Europe, though not as much due to Europe's economic depression and a slow change toward hatred of Eastern Europeans.

You obviously didn't even read what I said. I said he claims the idea of immigrants ruining everything is bullshit. He actually was a liberal douche, the opposite of a neo-nazi.

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(4) Anyone who plays the 'you are feeding Eurabia hype' to those who challenge these precepts on this forum is in the wrong place and misunderstands what we exist for.

It's not so much a small hype as it's an effective electoral and political position, which is slowly dying, but for the moment is popular in Europe, and has strains in the US.

People who claim Muslims are growing and this is evil and bad is a paranoid bigot/fruitcake.
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Reply #56 - February 24, 2014, 01:44 AM

Quote from: lua on February 23, 2014, 06:03 PM
Correct is hard to pin: you have some people who will say correct sharia has to come from the guidelines of the Quran, and others who say you have to incorporate the hadith, so carving out something that anyone could consider very correct would be a whole lot of work, and I could see a few "valid" systems coming out of it. Back when I was a believer, I was of the opinion that punishable crimes must be limited to the ones in the Quran.

The thing about Saudi Arabia that makes it so much worse than either one of the above systems is that they have no codified law. They claim sharia, but the courts' opinions come from the whims of the judges, making it nearly impossible to fight a charge, even if it had no basis in Islam. Additionally, you have seen a rash of activists recently charged with crimes basically catered to their situation--ones that never existed before--just to get these people out of the public eye.

I, personally, would rather go into a country where the rules were the rules, unfair or not, and that they all had to have a concrete basis in Islam (which classically dictates that what is not expressly forbidden is permissible), than be at the mercy of a legal system that is fluid, confusing, and, above all, one that will change with a snap of the king's fingers.

The problem is, there has never been a codified law in the history of Islam, so what makes that "correct"? The story of Imam Malik and his muwattah is even often used to prove this point. It does come down to the "whim", as you put it, of the judges. But that is exactly what shariah with its "flexibility" offers, it is up to every judge to make a decision based on his understanding of usool and the texts. I find your opinions very interesting, but at the end they are your personal opinions that are not based on classical Islamic jurisprudence. And I find it hard to define any specific shariah as "correct" while the others are not.

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Reply #57 - February 24, 2014, 01:46 AM

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You obviously didn't even read what I said. I said he claims the idea of immigrants ruining everything is bullshit. He actually was a liberal douche, the opposite of a neo-nazi.

I did read what you said, and you initially stated that "Europe" is afraid of Eurabia. "Europe" is not afraid of Eurabia, a very small fraction of the extremist far right wing believe in Eurabia, but they hardly represent "Europe".

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Reply #58 - February 24, 2014, 01:48 AM

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I did read what you said, and you initially stated that "Europe" is afraid of Eurabia. "Europe" is not afraid of Eurabia, a very small fraction of the extremist far right wing believe in Eurabia, but they hardly represent "Europe".

I maintain that when political parties with such a platform become the second, third largest parties in European legislatures and join governing coalitions, etc, they are not a "small fraction" of the population.

Also I'm not sure how you read "This Swedish guy I talked to would always go on about how the "immigration threat" is bullshit into "yeah, that was a neo-nazi". Lol.
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Reply #59 - February 24, 2014, 02:04 AM

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Then I don't understand the Europeans afraid of "Eurabia"

and then

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Some of the most powerful elected political parties in Europe promote this. The National Front in France, the Danish People's Party of Denmark, the Party of Freedom in the Netherlands, the UKIP in Great Britain, Golden Dawn in Greece (who like Jobbik in my country of heritage are actually full blown Neo-Nazis who focus on all "non-whites"). It seems to be a very popular idea.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you pointed out here that "Europeans" are afraid of Eurabia. And as I said, that you can stand by whatever point you want, but you are assuming a lot of things without really knowing the political climate in most of these Europeans countries or even the reasons why these types of parties are elected in the first place. If you are not aware of the contexts or "background story" as you may call it, you can't really make a fair assessment. But whatever

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