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 Topic: Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care

 (Read 7191 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     OP - March 04, 2014, 11:33 AM

    Quote
    The children taught at home about murder and bombings

    Radicalisation is a form of child abuse, and the authorities must have the power to intervene


    It must have been dreadful for the family of Drummer Lee Rigby to listen to the ravings of his killers as they were finally hauled away to the cells and, one hopes, to a lifetime of incarceration. If those relatives have one consolation, it is that they were just about the last words those men will ever pronounce in public; the last time we will have to hear them pervert the religion of Islam – and the most important question now is how we prevent other young men, and women, from succumbing to that awful virus: the contagion of radical Islamic extremism.


    Every day in London and other big cities, there are thousands of counter-terrorism officers doing a fantastic job of keeping us safe. They have to work out who are the most vulnerable young people, who are the most susceptible – and they have to stop the infection of radicalisation before it is too late. That will sometimes mean taking a view about what is happening to them in their homes and families – and I worry that their work is being hampered by what I am obliged to call political correctness.


    There is built in to the British system a reluctance to be judgmental about someone else’s culture, even if that reluctance places children at risk. Look at the case of Harriet Harman. You may ask yourself how on earth this relatively astute politician could have allowed her organisation to be affiliated to a body that brazenly called itself the “Paedophile Information Exchange”. The answer – which Harman would do well to admit – is that back in the Seventies she got into a complete intellectual fog.


    The National Council for Civil Liberties was avowedly in search of minorities to protect, and they came to suppose that paedophiles must be victims of their own urges and that it was therefore not their fault that they were so widely abhorred. They mushily decided that the paedophiles must have some sort of “protected group” status – like other minorities; and the victims, of course, were the children who were groomed and abused by these emboldened perverts.


    Or look at the appalling failure of this country to tackle the evil of Female Genital Mutilation (FGM). This practice is utter savagery. It involves the excision of the female exterior genital organs, including the clitoris, so as to minimise the possibility of sexual pleasure. The mutilation can cause infection, death, or constant pain.

    Both Britain and France banned this barbarism in the mid-Eighties; and yet the French have been much more effective in tackling it than we have. They have jailed about 100 people, and started proceedings against a dozen doctors. We have thousands of victims in Britain, thousands of girls being cut every year, and yet we have managed not a single prosecution – let alone a conviction.

    Again, there is that fatal squeamishness about intervening in the behaviour of a “protected group” – in this case ethnic minorities, often but by no means always from the Horn of Africa. There are still Left-wing academics protesting that the war on FGM is a form of imperialism, and that we are wrong to impose our Western norms.

    I say that is utter rubbish, and a monstrous inversion of what I mean by liberalism. On the contrary: we need to be stronger and clearer in asserting our understanding of British values. That is nowhere more apparent in the daily job of those who protect us all from terror – and who are engaged in tackling the spread of extremist and radical Islam.

    We are familiar by now with the threat posed by the preachers of hate, the extremist clerics who can sow the seeds of madness in the minds of impressionable young people. We are watching like hawks to see who comes back from Syria, and the ideas they may have picked up.

    We know that the problem of radicalisation is not getting conspicuously worse – but nor is it going away. There are a few thousand people in London – the “low thousands”, they say – who are of interest to the security services; and a huge amount of work goes into monitoring those people, and into making sure that their ranks are not swelled by new victims of radicalisation.

    What has been less widely understood is that some young people are now being radicalised at home, by their parents or by their step-parents. It is estimated that there could be hundreds of children – especially those who come within the orbit of the banned extremist group Al-Muhajiroun – who are being taught crazy stuff: the kind of mad yearning for murder and death that we heard from Lee Rigby’s killers.

    At present, there is a reluctance by the social services to intervene, even when they and the police have clear evidence of what is going on, because it is not clear that the “safeguarding law” would support such action. A child may be taken into care if he or she is being exposed to pornography, or is being abused – but not if the child is being habituated to this utterly bleak and nihilistic view of the world that could lead them to become murderers. I have been told of at least one case where the younger siblings of a convicted terrorist are well on the road to radicalisation – and it is simply not clear that the law would support intervention.

    This is absurd. The law should obviously treat radicalisation as a form of child abuse. It is the strong view of many of those involved in counter-terrorism that there should be a clearer legal position, so that those children who are being turned into potential killers or suicide bombers can be removed into care – for their own safety and for the safety of the public.

    That must surely be right. We need to be less phobic of intrusion into the ways of minority groups and less nervous of passing judgment on other cultures. We can have a great, glorious, polychromatic society, but we must be firm to the point of ruthlessness in opposing behaviour that undermines our values. Paedophilia, FGM, Islamic radicalisation – to some extent, at some stage, we have tiptoed round them all for fear of offending this or that minority. It is children who have suffered.



    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10671841/The-children-taught-at-home-about-murder-and-bombings.html

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #1 - March 04, 2014, 01:54 PM

    So how are we going to define "radical" and "radicalization"?

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #2 - March 04, 2014, 01:55 PM

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=25383.msg722707#msg722707

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #3 - March 04, 2014, 01:58 PM

    Yeah, but the question is still: how are we going to define "radical" or "extremist" Islam? Who is going to be given the task to define "correct" and "good" Islam? It's problematic, even though I support the idea in principle.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #4 - March 04, 2014, 02:07 PM

    Women should be stoned, gays should be murdered, people who leave the faith should be murdered, non muslims are somehow less human than you and going to hell, there's a lot to choose from.

    I think the Nazi mentality of superiority and the encouragement and endorsement of discrimination, apathy and murder should be discussed.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #5 - March 04, 2014, 05:36 PM

    Ok but you just listed pretty normal and mainstream ideas within mainstream shiah and sunni theology and jurisprudence. So in essence, we want to criminalize Islam? Only progressive and fairly "modernist" Islam is OK?

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #6 - March 04, 2014, 06:37 PM

    This is one of those ideas that probably sounds like something sensible, humane and in the best interests of everybody to someone from Boris Johnson's background.  To those of us from a background which might put us at odds with the UK authorities on certain issues, it sounds sinister. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #7 - March 04, 2014, 06:52 PM

    Don't forget Boris is part Turkish.  He probably knows more about this than realised.  

    And I would have thought it would be quite easy to find a justification - like physical abuse of the children.

    I basically agree with this.  It is similar to the French attitude.

    There is a legal concept of "compromise law".  We tend to go this route when what is needed is a very clear rule.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #8 - March 04, 2014, 07:04 PM

    Some helpful advice for Muslim parents.
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #9 - March 04, 2014, 07:25 PM

    Don't forget Boris is part Turkish.  He probably knows more about this than realised.  

    And I would have thought it would be quite easy to find a justification - like physical abuse of the children.

    I basically agree with this.  It is similar to the French attitude.

    There is a legal concept of "compromise law".  We tend to go this route when what is needed is a very clear rule.


    He's like 1/8th or less Turkish, this has nothing to do with his comments.
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #10 - March 04, 2014, 08:57 PM

    Shouldn't we be discussing the message, not the messenger?  Are some ideas and practice child abuse?  If so, what action should be taken?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #11 - March 04, 2014, 09:03 PM

    I agree. The thing is, what we would see as harmful and abuse against children, are pretty much mainstream Islamic teachings. Who is going to give us the "correct" interpretation of Islam, the "right" Islam? I don't see it ever happening.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #12 - March 04, 2014, 09:11 PM

    I agree. The thing is, what we would see as harmful and abuse against children, are pretty much mainstream Islamic teachings.

    Umm, yeah.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #13 - March 04, 2014, 09:59 PM

    You can't take children off their parents because they're being raised with mainstream Islamic beliefs, and that's not what Boris Johnson is suggesting anyway.  He's talking about parents raising their children to think joining al Qaeda would be a great career move. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #14 - March 04, 2014, 10:02 PM

    It always annoys me to hear a politician talk about people who
    Quote
    pervert the religion of Islam

    .
    It simply is not their place to say what is genuine Islam, and what is a perversion of it.

    There is some common assumption that all religion at heart, is nice and fluffy. Why is it hard to believe that primitive and barbaric cults, have primitive and barbaric ideas?

    I don't think it even matters what the true Islam is. Whatever you want to call the beliefs of the extremist nutters, it is still some kind of religious belief. It doesn't matter if it is not Islam. It is still religion. As long as we are going to pretend that religions should be respected, then we need to respect their religion too.

    Distinguishing between violent religions and fluffy religions doesn't help us to achieve anything. What we should be doing is distinguishing between sensible, and ridiculous ideas. All religion would fall into the latter category, and we can criticise the extremists for having stupid ideas. I think that is a much stronger stance than criticising them for having an inaccurate interpretation of their own religion. I don't see why it matters if their interpretation is inaccurate, if the entire religion is myth in the first place.
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #15 - March 04, 2014, 10:18 PM

    They're politicians. They want people to vote for them. If you tell people their religion is a primitive and barbaric cult, they wont vote for you.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #16 - March 04, 2014, 11:46 PM

    Boris is a wanker. His comments are impractical, unworkable, and in the context of the reality of state welfare agencies and bureaucracies and how they work, genuinely spine chilling.

    Its easier to grab headlines like this, than actually support secularists and people who address anti-extremism issues. That takes time, effort, patience and a willingness to work behind the scenes without headline grabbing and also to be bold when tackling specific subjects like the growth of Wahaabi Islam in our cities, often funded by institutes and individuals from Saudi / Qatar. The same Qatar that Boris can't stop genuflecting over and kissing the feet of when they open their chequebook to spend money in London, the city that Boris is the mayor of.

    So yeah, bottom line is that the last person to be listened to on these issues is a buffoon of Boris's standing.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #17 - March 04, 2014, 11:46 PM

    Just to add to the discussion.

  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #18 - March 05, 2014, 01:54 AM

    Quote
    Or look at the appalling failure of this country to tackle the evil of Female Genital Mutilation (FGM). This practice is utter savagery. It involves the excision of the female exterior genital organs, including the clitoris, so as to minimise the possibility of sexual pleasure. The mutilation can cause infection, death, or constant pain.

    Both Britain and France banned this barbarism in the mid-Eighties; and yet the French have been much more effective in tackling it than we have. They have jailed about 100 people, and started proceedings against a dozen doctors. We have thousands of victims in Britain, thousands of girls being cut every year, and yet we have managed not a single prosecution – let alone a conviction.

    So what the fuck are you doing about it then? You're in power. Less talk, more action.

    Quote
    Again, there is that fatal squeamishness about intervening in the behaviour of a “protected group”

    No there isn't. You would have almost complete total universal approval to enact harsher measures against FGM. Since when do you actually give a shit what a few left-leaning moral relativists have to say? Stop using those inconsequential douchebags as a scapegoat for your inaction.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #19 - March 05, 2014, 05:58 AM


     Cheesy

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #20 - March 05, 2014, 07:24 AM

    He's like 1/8th or less Turkish, this has nothing to do with his comments.

    Agreed.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #21 - March 05, 2014, 07:37 AM

    So I've been thinking about this. I struggle to think of ways it can really be effective. It seems rather like a knee jerk reaction from Boris.

    My thoughts on the matter are quite simple. Mix. None of these faith schools which are on the record for discriminating against children who's families have other beliefs. No discrimination against teachers. No seclusion.

    The best way of moving forward as I see it is to not allow segregation in the manner we currently are. It breeds distrust and a sense of otherness. We've seen this time and time again. And time and time again the best solution has always been mixing. This idea of separating children from their families really is chilling when you think how it could turn out in practise.

    The more we mix, the more we see each other as fellow human beings first. That's the way forward. Boris should be calling for unity and challenging poisonous ideas.

    I do understand there may sometimes be exceptional circumstances where a child does need to be removed, but it should not be something encouraged as a norm aimed at islamic families.

    Thoughts?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #22 - March 05, 2014, 08:20 AM

    That makes sense, so you can be almost certain that it will never be implemented. Wink

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #23 - March 05, 2014, 03:32 PM

    Don't forget Boris is part Turkish.  He probably knows more about this than realised.  

     


    People from Turkey tend to be alot more liberal than people from other muslim majority countries.  Cenk Uygur the host of TheYoungTurks is an agnostic ex muslim.

    He does not feel at all threatened or unsafe when he visits his family  in Turkey even though he is an open agnostic that criticizes religion publicly on his show.   

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #24 - March 05, 2014, 03:38 PM

    This might sound good in a theoretical philosophical way but it is practically impossible.

    Child services are already struggling to help the large amount of children that are orphans and abuse victims to find homes and this would just create an enormous influx of children that child services would not be able to handle.

    And you can't really figure out which homes are radical without going in and having an indepth conversation with each family.

    And you are also operating under the assumption that the families would tell you the truth when they know it could result in you taking their children away.


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #25 - March 05, 2014, 07:34 PM

    Speaking of, I remember a while back their was a christian couple who made a lot of noise because social services refused to let them foster/adopt as they believed homosexuality was wrong and would try to install that prejudice into the children.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #26 - March 05, 2014, 10:16 PM

    Most radicalisation in the UK does not take the form of indoctrination of extremist ideas onto young children. In the majority of cases it is the indoctrination of young people in their youth who come from mostly deprived communities- many from Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities.  When people like Boris Johnson talk about dealing with radicalization/extremism I can't really take it too seriously as I'm not really sure he understands, cares or even wants to address some of the root causes.

    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #27 - March 05, 2014, 10:38 PM

    As an elitist neo-thatcherite preacher of the 'greed is good' I think he knows the root causes and is probably happy they exist. He's also doing what cameron does in preperation for a return to Parliament; 'here's a big complicated problem that would take time, money and effort to solve, I'm just going to suggest a vaguely-populist cheap quick fix to make it look likeI really care'.
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #28 - March 05, 2014, 10:40 PM

    Oh and I don't remember Boris calling for the kids of neo-nazis, hardcore racists and other political extremists (or non-Muslim religious extremists) to be put in care
  • Boris Johnson: Children at risk of Islamic extremism should be taken into care
     Reply #29 - March 05, 2014, 10:42 PM




    People from Turkey tend to be alot more liberal than people from other muslim majority countries.  Cenk Uygur the host of TheYoungTurks is an agnostic ex muslim.

    He does not feel at all threatened or unsafe when he visits his family  in Turkey even though he is an open agnostic that criticizes religion publicly on his show.   


    This is still not relevant. Boris could be 1/8th Yemeni and the situation would be no different.
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »