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 Topic: Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect

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  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #30 - March 07, 2014, 10:38 PM
    Ishina,

    Are you referring to a psychological/psychiatric understanding of narcissism?

    If not, then where are you getting your idea from?
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #31 - March 07, 2014, 10:40 PM
    Quote from: Ishina
    Quote from: RamiRustom
    What does the parent or child benefit by killing the abuser of the child?

    It's not about net benefit. It's about impulse.

    Let's look at this objectively. Trying to kill the abuser has a risk. Let's say the parent dies during his attempt at killing the abuser (say the abuser dies too).

    Is that good for the child? No. It's very harmful. So acting on that impulse is awful! It's abandoning one's responsibility towards his child!
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #32 - March 07, 2014, 10:45 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on March 07, 2014, 10:38 PM
    Ishina,

    Are you referring to a psychological/psychiatric understanding of narcissism?

    If not, then where are you getting your idea from?

    I'm offering an argument based on my general understanding of narcissism.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #33 - March 07, 2014, 10:54 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on March 07, 2014, 10:40 PM
    Let's look at this objectively. Trying to kill the abuser has a risk. Let's say the parent dies during his attempt at killing the abuser (say the abuser dies too).

    Is that good for the child? No. It's very harmful. So acting on that impulse is awful! It's abandoning one's responsibility towards his child!

    We are talking about an impulsive act, though. I believe in certain cases, like the example I gave, that discretion is needed. If we understand anything about the human condition, we understand the effects of emotions such as anger and how they can act as powerful motivators, and that anger is sometimes unavoidable in certain situations. We can permit a person the right to a certain amount of diminished capacity to control impulse when in that kind of situation, and judge them appropriately by taking such things into account. We can empathise and appreciate the reasons why it happened, even agree with them to an extent, or at least feel that we perhaps might do the same. We don't have to like knowing we might have that in us, but we can't exactly deny it.

    Of course it's an awful situation. But it's absurd to expect someone to be able to lift themselves out of such a situation and analyse it objectively before acting. That's just not how those situations play out.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #34 - March 07, 2014, 10:56 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on March 07, 2014, 10:45 PM
    I'm offering an argument based on my general understanding of narcissism.

    Where did you learn it from?
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #35 - March 07, 2014, 10:57 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on March 07, 2014, 10:54 PM
    We are talking about an impulsive act, though. I believe in certain cases, like the example I gave, that discretion is needed. If we understand anything about the human condition, we understand the effects of emotions such as anger and how they can act as powerful motivators, and that anger is sometimes unavoidable in certain situations. We can permit a person the right to a certain amount of diminished capacity to control impulse when in that kind of situation, and judge them appropriately by taking such things into account. We can empathise and appreciate the reasons why it happened, even agree with them to an extent, or at least feel that we perhaps might do the same. We don't have to like knowing we might have that in us, but we can't exactly deny it.

    Of course it's an awful situation. But it's absurd to expect someone to be able to lift themselves out of such a situation and analyse it objectively before acting. That's just not how those situations play out.

    The better thing to do would be to fix one's anger long before he got in such a situation.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #36 - March 07, 2014, 10:59 PM
    Not everyone is Ultimate Zen Master like you.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #37 - March 07, 2014, 11:01 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus
    Not everyone is Ultimate Zen Master like you.

    Fortunately everyone has the capacity to improve their emotions.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #38 - March 07, 2014, 11:02 PM
    Om mani padme hum. parrot
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #39 - March 07, 2014, 11:02 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on March 07, 2014, 10:56 PM
    Where did you learn it from?

    I read stuff. And I have encountered narcissists in life.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #40 - March 07, 2014, 11:05 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on March 07, 2014, 10:57 PM
    The better thing to do would be to fix one's anger long before he got in such a situation.

    How would a person go about 'fixing' their anger to the extent that they were fully in control of all their faculties and could act completely logical and rational when they discovered someone had abused their child?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #41 - March 07, 2014, 11:09 PM
    Quote from: Ishina
    How would a person go about 'fixing' their anger to the extent that they were fully in control of all their faculties and could act completely logical and rational when they discovered someone had abused their child?

    Why are you setting the standard at infallibility/omniscience?

    If you just found out that your child was abused, don't you think you should be thinking about what your child needs from you right now? Rather than on what you want to do to her abuser?

    If you get mad and run to kill the abuser, you're not talking to your child and finding out what your child needs.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #42 - March 07, 2014, 11:11 PM
    Do you have any sense of why a person might act violently in that situation?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #43 - March 08, 2014, 12:43 AM
    Quote from: Ishina
    Do you have any sense of why a person might act violently in that situation?

    Well, let's see. Let's say the aggressor still has the opportunity to do it again (either because at this point the law is not yet on the victim's side, or maybe because we're talking about centuries ago when police weren't much help). In this case, using force to protect the child (and other children) from a repeat act by the aggressor, is good. But this is for protection. It's beneficial.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #44 - March 08, 2014, 01:22 AM
    I think y'all are missing something integral about honor culture. Again we are highlighting the individual.
    The honor killing examples I have given were more about the community pressure, in my opinion, less about personal vendetta.
    I feel as if, in the honor version that I understand, there is this pressure to maintain the status quo, and that murders are often carried out to fulfill the community's expectations, or the perceived expectations of the community. How many times I have heard "She is lucky she wasn't killed for that."? A hundred, at least.
    So many honor killings occur after there has been meetings by family and the murder is a decision made by multiple parties. One person might be doing the killing, but it was many who murdered the victim.
    To me, this is the real problem, this community acceptance, nay, this perceived necessity, for murder.
    If there were an intolerance for violence or murder, I think this would happen much less, and be more for the reasons of selfishness and superiority you have described.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #45 - March 08, 2014, 02:33 AM
    With you, three.

    Sometimes it is committed solemnly, but with a sense of obligation, but it is so hard for many of us to imagine it. It is difficult to really accept that, even without personal feelings of shame or anger or betrayal, one could consent or participate in an honor killing.

    I recall watching a documentary once where they interviewed people involved in particular honor killing cases...The one I will always remember is when they interviewed the very young son of a woman who was killed by her husband for some awful reason or another, who emphatically defended his father's decision, and several people who were interviewed were outraged that the father had to serve prison time.

    I think it was the husband's sister who yelled, teary-eyed at the camera, something like, "Everyone knows that the punishment for these types of murders is six months (if I recall correctly?) in prison. Everyone knows, and he got x years!" As though the six months or whatever was the fair price of the woman's life, and that the biggest tragedy she's ever heard of is the price of the woman being raised after the husband committed to the murder.

    Whether or not the societal part is to blame for most or even a significant portion of the killings, I'd imagine these cases are far more complex and toxic and pervasive than those where the primary motivator was the psychological shortcomings of the killer himself.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #46 - March 08, 2014, 04:33 AM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on March 08, 2014, 12:43 AM
    Well, let's see. Let's say the aggressor still has the opportunity to do it again (either because at this point the law is not yet on the victim's side, or maybe because we're talking about centuries ago when police weren't much help). In this case, using force to protect the child (and other children) from a repeat act by the aggressor, is good. But this is for protection. It's beneficial.

    That's not really what I'm asking, but nevermind. If you truly, genuinely do not understand and empathise with the reasons why a parent of an abused child might act impulsively and violently against the abuser, and if you do not appreciate the diminished capacity for impulse control someone might have in that position, then I think I'll just leave it there. I kinda feel like I'm trying to describe colour to a blind person.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #47 - March 08, 2014, 01:47 PM
    Quote from: three on March 08, 2014, 01:22 AM
    I think y'all are missing something integral about honor culture. Again we are highlighting the individual.
    The honor killing examples I have given were more about the community pressure, in my opinion, less about personal vendetta.
    I feel as if, in the honor version that I understand, there is this pressure to maintain the status quo, and that murders are often carried out to fulfill the community's expectations, or the perceived expectations of the community. How many times I have heard "She is lucky she wasn't killed for that."? A hundred, at least.
    So many honor killings occur after there has been meetings by family and the murder is a decision made by multiple parties. One person might be doing the killing, but it was many who murdered the victim.
    To me, this is the real problem, this community acceptance, nay, this perceived necessity, for murder.
    If there were an intolerance for violence or murder, I think this would happen much less, and be more for the reasons of selfishness and superiority you have described.

    I take your point, but let’s be very clear about that pressure. The pressure works IF AND ONLY IF the person gives a flying fuck what the other people think in his society.

    So, say there is a guy living in such a community with lots of these fucking idiots. And lets say that he went to school in Europe and became a lot more rational than them. Say he learned the tradition of tolerance — which says that dissent of ideas is good, not bad — and say he learned that initiating violence in response to a dispute is evil. Say he also learned the tradition of individuality, and that it's fucking stupid for one’s social status to be, in any way, linked to his family, let alone *the women in his family*.

    Now lets say his daughter does something that his community (and his family) considers to mess with his (and his families) social status — say she was caught on a date. So now the family is talking to this father about this situation. The family is saying that they need to kill her, as a means to keep their social status in the community. What is the father going to do? Give in to their “pressure”? Or help his daughter leave the country? (or leave the country WITH his daughter).
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #48 - March 08, 2014, 01:54 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on March 08, 2014, 04:33 AM
    That's not really what I'm asking, but nevermind. If you truly, genuinely do not understand and empathise with the reasons why a parent of an abused child might act impulsively and violently against the abuser, and if you do not appreciate the diminished capacity for impulse control someone might have in that position, then I think I'll just leave it there. I kinda feel like I'm trying to describe colour to a blind person.

    In your analogy, I am blind. I have 2 kids, and I've never experienced what you're talking about.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #49 - March 08, 2014, 03:03 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on March 08, 2014, 01:47 PM
    I take your point, but let’s be very clear about that pressure. The pressure works IF AND ONLY IF the person gives a flying fuck what the other people think in his society.

    So, say there is a guy living in such a community with lots of these fucking idiots. And lets say that he went to school in Europe and became a lot more rational than them. Say he learned the tradition of tolerance — which says that dissent of ideas is good, not bad — and say he learned that initiating violence in response to a dispute is evil. Say he also learned the tradition of individuality, and that it's fucking stupid for one’s social status to be, in any way, linked to his family, let alone *the women in his family*.

    Now lets say his daughter does something that his community (and his family) considers to mess with his (and his families) social status — say she was caught on a date. So now the family is talking to this father about this situation. The family is saying that they need to kill her, as a means to keep their social status in the community. What is the father going to do? Give in to their “pressure”? Or help his daughter leave the country? (or leave the country WITH his daughter).



    Exactly. He was out of his culture.
    The culture has to be changed for the people to change, and, if a girl is able to get out and get on a date, it is changing already. So that is a hope.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #50 - March 08, 2014, 03:10 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on March 08, 2014, 01:54 PM
    In your analogy, I am blind. I have 2 kids, and I've never experienced what you're talking about.


    When you find your child in that situation, it is overwhelming. If you have not experienced it, it is accurate to say that you do not know what you would do. The perpetrators on my children were other children, and probably that is the only thing that kept me from losing my sanity in that moment. I never thought to be suspicious of children, only adults. Now I know better.
    If it had been a grown man, it would have been different, my reaction.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #51 - March 08, 2014, 03:51 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on March 08, 2014, 01:54 PM
    In your analogy, I am blind. I have 2 kids, and I've never experienced what you're talking about.

    Your child is anywhere between 0 and 10 years old. You turn a corner and find a man raping him/her. Child is terrified and in agony. Your reaction?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #52 - March 08, 2014, 03:52 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on March 08, 2014, 01:54 PM
    In your analogy, I am blind. I have 2 kids, and I've never experienced what you're talking about.

    Ah, that explains it. Because not literally experiencing a thing for yourself would make it impossible to entertain the hypothetical and empathise on any level with someone who had experienced it.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #53 - March 08, 2014, 04:41 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on March 08, 2014, 03:51 PM
    Your child is anywhere between 0 and 10 years old. You turn a corner and find a man raping him/her. Child is terrified and in agony. Your reaction?

    Help child externally -- remove the raper, make sure he is no longer a threat.

    Help child internally -- what does she want? To be covered? Do it. To be home? Do it. To be hugging you? Do it.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #54 - March 08, 2014, 05:17 PM
    You cannot do both of those things simultaneously. You need one to follow all steps regarding the rapist, and another to care for the child.
    How do you make sure a rapist is no longer a threat? I think the example scenario you have been given already is where you get this answer.
    That is where you snap, trying to keep your child safe.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #55 - March 08, 2014, 05:23 PM
    I meant them in chronological order.

    First remove the raper and make sure he is no longer a threat. THEN do the rest.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #56 - March 08, 2014, 05:25 PM
    I wonder if you guys are assuming that I'm some kind of pacifist. Fuck no!

    If I think I need to use a shotgun on the raper, as a means to make sure he's no longer a threat, then I'll do that.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #57 - March 08, 2014, 05:50 PM
    Would you be calm and collected, take a minute to assess the situation or as soon as you hear/see what's happening would you just instinctively react?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #58 - March 08, 2014, 06:11 PM
    Why would you need a minute to decide how to react?

    While you are running towards him, there is enough time to decide what to do.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #59 - March 08, 2014, 06:13 PM
    Would you be thinking calmly and rationally?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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