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 Topic: Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect

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  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #60 - March 08, 2014, 06:15 PM

    Based on three's criticism, I've changed my essay to account for it.

    I'm presenting it here to ask you guys for criticism. Does it address three's concerns?

    Here's the new beginning.

    Quote
    Honor violence is a sort of violence committed where the perpetrator's goal is to regain his tribe's honor, his family's honor, and his own honor. In most cases it’s planned by a family, and committed by one or more men of that family, to a woman who has done something against cultural or religious norms like rejecting an arranged marriage, or adopting a Western lifestyle. It’s a huge problem in Islamic communities[1], and it’s something that doesn’t exist at all in so many other communities.

    There are three flaws to discuss here. The main flaw is intolerance -- the idea that it's best for a person to initiate violence on another person because he has dissenting ideas. A second flaw is the idea that a person's social status is important and should be sought after and preserved. And a third flaw is that a person's social status should be, in any way, linked with his family's, and tribe's social status. An important thing to note here is that these flaws are connected, in the sense that they are caused by the same kind of thinking. To clarify, I'm not talking about which flaw is more or less to blame for a person committing honor violence. What I'm talking about is that all of these flaws must be there, in order for a person to think it's best for him to commit honor violence.


    And here's the new ending.

    Quote
    So the status-based attitude is what causes people to care about honor, or social status. They have an intense desire for status, and it can pervade practically all of their thinking. Now, in tribal cultures, another flaw they have, aside from this status-based attitude, is that a person's social status should be linked to his family and tribe. And in some tribal cultures, especially the ones where Islam is dominant, they have a strong tradition linking their status with the women of the tribe. Now, combine this status-based attitude and these other flaws, with the attitude that it's morally right to initiate violence in response to a dissenter, and what you have is somebody willing to commit honor violence (including honor killings) against his daughters, sisters, and other female members of his community, and on anybody who he perceives to be lowering his status/respect/honor.

    I should clarify something about the relationship between the individual and the community. It is true that a Muslim man who commits honor violence is being pressured by his family to commit the violence as a means of preserving their social status, but whether or not he acts on that pressure, or even feels that pressure, depends on his ideas. Will he care what his family and community thinks? Well, in those communities, a lot of the opportunities for a man, like getting married or having a good job, depends on the status of his family and his tribe. So if a woman taints his family's status, and if he doesn't remove that taint by killing her, then he'll lose those opportunities. But so what? He could forego all of those "opportunities" by fleeing the country with his daughter. If he doesn't do that, it's because of his evil ideas.

  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #61 - March 08, 2014, 06:17 PM

    Quote
    Would you be thinking calmly and rationally?

    As calmly and rationally as right now? I'm sure not.

    Somewhat calmly and rationally? Yes. For example, I wouldn't shoot the shotgun at him while she's behind him, because that would kill her too.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #62 - March 08, 2014, 06:29 PM

    Let's say I'm the father and I come across this happening to my five year old child. Without even thinking about it I throw myself at him and beat him badly enough he dies in hospital. Can you understand that I may not think it through but as a parent react instinctively? Would you hold me to the same standards as you would if it were a different situation, for example I walked down the street and assaulted someone because I didn't like how they looked at me?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #63 - March 08, 2014, 06:57 PM

    Based on three's criticism, I've changed my essay to account for it.

    I'm presenting it here to ask you guys for criticism. Does it address three's concerns?

    Here's the new beginning.

    And here's the new ending.



    I find this very offensive. A woman doesn't have to do a damn thing to be a victim of honor violence.
    She does not cause her death. I even gave you an example of a case where the woman was not to blame. Even a suspicion will get a girl killed.

    "to a woman who has done something against cultural or religious norms like rejecting an arranged marriage, or adopting a Western lifestyle. It’s a huge problem in Islamic communities[1], and it’s something that doesn’t exist at all in so many other communities."

    You just wiped India off of the map. Please put it back.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #64 - March 08, 2014, 07:08 PM

    Quote from: three
    I find this very offensive. A woman doesn't have to do a damn thing to be a victim of honor violence.

    That you find it offensive is not important.

    What's important is that there is a flaw. Note that whether or not you find something offensive, does not say anything about whether or not it is flawed.

    I agree with you that I missed the point about that she could be punished even for doing nothing wrong (wrong according to her societies' norms) and instead only by a suspected wrong.

    Quote from: three

    She does not cause her death. I even gave you an example of a case where the woman was not to blame. Even a suspicion will get a girl killed.

    Of course she doesn't cause her death. She is not responsible for other people's actions.
    Quote from: three

    "to a woman who has done something against cultural or religious norms like rejecting an arranged marriage, or adopting a Western lifestyle. It’s a huge problem in Islamic communities[1], and it’s something that doesn’t exist at all in so many other communities."

    You just wiped India off of the map. Please put it back.

    Huh? I didn't say that Islamic communities are the only place where honor violence happens. You misunderstood.

    So here's a replacement:

    Quote
    Honor violence is a sort of violence committed where the perpetrator's goal is to regain his tribe's honor, his family's honor, and his own honor. In most cases it’s planned by a family, and committed by one or more men of that family, to a woman of the family who has done or suspected to have done something against cultural or religious norms like rejecting an arranged marriage, or adopting a Western lifestyle. What's worse is that the family helps the perpetrators avoid justice by helping them flee the country. It’s a huge problem in Islamic communities[1], among others, and it’s something that doesn’t exist at all in so many other communities.

  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #65 - March 08, 2014, 07:10 PM

    I wonder if you guys are assuming that I'm some kind of pacifist.

    Well, no. I was trying to get you to grasp the initial point I was making regarding the connotations of the term 'honour killing', how the term has undue import. This was just a meta-discussion to that end.

    The broader point being made is that I can empathise with certain crimes of passion. If someone was to kill my partner, for example, I would lose my mind. I almost lose my mind just thinking about it. I already feel the stirrings of a much stronger anger within me when I merely entertain the idea as a hypothetical. I can only imagine I'd do one of two things – either be crippled and made insensible by grief and lash out at anything and everyone, or I'd be sent on a trajectory of blood rage towards the killer and would have to be physically restrained. And because of this, I can empathise with people who do so often act like that, in anger or intense emotion, in situations with common factors, to the extent that I find myself rooting for them. To the extent that I feel myself leaning towards clemency in legal and societal consequence.

    This is in profound contrast to what is refereed to as an 'honour killing'. I absolutely cannot empathise with that, on any kind of level. It is an alien evil to me, a degenerate, perverted, twisted malice, utterly unrecognisable to me as anything approaching virtuous or slightly forgiveable. This phenomenon does not speak to my sense of honour, at all. For example a case of rape where the victim is blamed and killed. This is entirely backwards. In such a situation I could only feel a sense of honour towards protecting or seeking justice for the victim, a sense of equity and the conscience to put things right. I do not recognise an 'honour' that compels one the blame the victim or take it out on the victim, a contorted shame so warped that it seeks vendetta against the victim to put things back in order. That just is not in me. It does not make rational sense, it does not make emotional or empathetic sense, it does not resonate with me whatsoever. It just inspires physical revulsion and absolute loathing. It is not honour as I understand honour. It is a hubris I cannot relate to and that I actively despise. It is for these reasons that the term 'honour killing' makes me so uncomfortable.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #66 - March 08, 2014, 07:12 PM

    Let's say I'm the father and I come across this happening to my five year old child. Without even thinking about it I throw myself at him and beat him badly enough he dies in hospital. Can you understand that I may not think it through but as a parent react instinctively? Would you hold me to the same standards as you would if it were a different situation, for example I walked down the street and assaulted someone because I didn't like how they looked at me?

    Same standard? How could it?

    Self-defense vs initiating violence. Self-defense is protecting a person from a person who has initiated harm -- it's pro-peaceful. The other is a person who initiates harm -- it's anti-peaceful. One is about starting a war. The other is about using force to end a war in order to restore peace after the person has already been dragged into war against his will.

    Why would anybody judge these the same?

    I'm guessing you didn't really mean to ask this question. So what did you mean?
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #67 - March 08, 2014, 07:16 PM

    I could only feel a sense of honour towards protecting or seeking justice for the victim, a sense of equity and the conscience to put things right.

    So are you saying that the victim will only feel right (or good) if her abuser feels pain?

    How does she benefit by her abuser feeling pain?

    I'm talking about a situation where the abuser is already not a threat to her or society. He's in jail, or on death row.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #68 - March 08, 2014, 07:18 PM

    Same standard? How could it?

    Self-defense vs initiating violence. Self-defense is protecting a person from a person who has initiated harm -- it's pro-peaceful. The other is a person who initiates harm -- it's anti-peaceful. One is about starting a war. The other is about using force to end a war in order to restore peace after the person has already been dragged into war against his will.

    Why would anybody judge these the same?

    I'm guessing you didn't really mean to ask this question. So what did you mean?

    I can't believe I have to spell this out for you.

    One situation is instinctive violence where I may or may not be held accountable, the other is not.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #69 - March 08, 2014, 07:20 PM

    This is quite bizarre. You seem to have a complete lack of ability to hypothesise vicariously. The point being made to you just keeps failing to register.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #70 - March 08, 2014, 07:42 PM

    That you find it offensive is not important.



    If it is not important what one finds offensive, what is your point, at all, in addressing honour violence?
    Why do you insist you haven't stated honour violence is exclusive to Muslim cultures and then write "..doesn't exist at all in so many other communities."

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #71 - March 08, 2014, 07:43 PM

    RR, try this: http://www.quotev.com/quiz/2884318/Are-you-REALLY-and-I-mean-really-REALLY-a-Human/

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #72 - March 08, 2014, 07:50 PM

    It says I'm a vampire.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #73 - March 08, 2014, 07:54 PM

    We knew that already.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #74 - March 08, 2014, 08:05 PM

    I tried to take this, but one of the kids got sick as I was doing so. I pronounce myself human.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #75 - March 08, 2014, 08:17 PM

    I can't believe I have to spell this out for you.

    One situation is instinctive violence where I may or may not be held accountable, the other is not.

    That IS NOT the important difference between them. One is RIGHT (self-defense) and one is WRONG (initiating violence).

    What I thought you were going to ask with between 2 situations where both of them are self-defense.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #76 - March 08, 2014, 08:20 PM

    I asked very clearly if you would hold me to the same standards in both situations.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #77 - March 08, 2014, 08:22 PM

    If it is not important what one finds offensive, what is your point, at all, in addressing honour violence?

    I don't understand your question.

    Caring about status is wrong. And finding something offensive is part of the status-based attitude.
    Why do you insist you haven't stated honour violence is exclusive to Muslim cultures and then write "..doesn't exist at all in so many other communities."

    I don't understand your question.

    I'm saying that honor violence only happens in communities where the people in it care about social status, think that their social status is linked with their family and tribe, and think that that status is linked to their women, and think that it's moral to kill a women to preserve that status. Many communities have these memes, most of them are Muslim communities. And many communities do not have (all) these memes.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #78 - March 08, 2014, 08:24 PM


    What's your point of linking that?
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #79 - March 08, 2014, 08:24 PM

    I asked very clearly if you would hold me to the same standards in both situations.

    And I said that I wouldn't BECAUSE one is self-defense (MORAL) and one is initiating violence (IMMORAL). Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #80 - March 08, 2014, 08:29 PM

    So you said self-defence is the important difference between them and then went on to say initiating violence is wrong, but in both situations I initiate violence. Regardless, that wasn't my question.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #81 - March 08, 2014, 08:35 PM

    What's your point of linking that?

    Ok, so that's a "No" then. Carry on. Smiley

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #82 - March 08, 2014, 08:39 PM

    I don't understand your question.

    Caring about status is wrong. And finding something offensive is part of the status-based attitude.I don't understand your question.

    I'm saying that honor violence only happens in communities where the people in it care about social status, think that their social status is linked with their family and tribe, and think that that status is linked to their women, and think that it's moral to kill a women to preserve that status. Many communities have these memes, most of them are Muslim communities. And many communities do not have (all) these memes.


    I think you need to take another look at honour violence and the history of it, before you claim it is Islamic.

    If finding something offensive is related to status, then you offended my status as a female with your initial implication that a woman has to do something to invite honour violence.
    If you find offending people to be irrelevant, then why are you even addressing honour violence at all, since being offended by the horrors of violence is irrelevant?
    What could possibly move someone to try to change honour culture, if they are not offended by senseless violence?

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #83 - March 08, 2014, 08:47 PM

    Quote from: three
    I think you need to take another look at honour violence and the history of it, before you claim it is Islamic.

    I didn't claim that it's Islamic.

    Quote from: three
    If finding something offensive is related to status, then you offended my status as a female with your initial implication that a woman has to do something to invite honour violence.

    You should have realized that I made a mistake in what I wrote, not that I actually think that the women caused violence on herself.

    Also you shouldn't be offended AS A FEMALE. You are human, like me. The fact that you are female does not matter.

    Quote from: three
    If you find offending people to be irrelevant, then why are you even addressing honour violence at all, since being offended by the horrors of violence is irrelevant?

    Irrelevant to what exactly?

    I said that you being offended is irrelevant [to the truth].
    Quote from: three
    What could possibly move someone to try to change honour culture, if they are not offended by senseless violence?

    So you think that the only reason someone should want a flaw fixed is if that flaw offends him? So you wouldn't try to fix flaws that don't offend you?
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #84 - March 08, 2014, 08:50 PM

    So you said self-defence is the important difference between them and then went on to say initiating violence is wrong, but in both situations I initiate violence. Regardless, that wasn't my question.

    No. In the case where you beat up your daughter's rapist at the moment that you found him doing it, YOU DID NOT INITIATE VIOLENCE. HE DID. What you did was meat force with force, as a means of restoring peace, after the aggressor already dragged you (by means of your daughter) into war against your daughter's will.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #85 - March 08, 2014, 09:12 PM

    I didn't claim that it's Islamic.
    You should have realized that I made a mistake in what I wrote, not that I actually think that the women caused violence on herself.

    Also you shouldn't be offended AS A FEMALE. You are human, like me. The fact that you are female does not matter.
    Irrelevant to what exactly?

    I said that you being offended is irrelevant [to the truth].So you think that the only reason someone should want a flaw fixed is if that flaw offends him? So you wouldn't try to fix flaws that don't offend you?


    How would I even notice something wrong if I didn't feel an offense? Something would then surely be wrong with me, if an injustice did not offend my sensibilities.

    If you are not claiming it is Islamic, why are you insisting it is mostly found in Muslim communities? You said it does "not exist at all" outside of Muslim communities, which is completely untrue.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #86 - March 08, 2014, 09:13 PM

    Hey people, you'd better watch yourselves. RR is starting to use ALLCAPS. This is a sure sign that HE IS SERIOUS and YOU GUYS ARE STUPID. bunny

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #87 - March 08, 2014, 09:48 PM

    How would I even notice something wrong if I didn't feel an offense? Something would then surely be wrong with me, if an injustice did not offend my sensibilities.

    Wait a minute. Are you saying that you don't notice flaws unless the flaws cause a feeling?

    I can know that an idea, or action, is flawed because it contradicts my current knowledge. For example, I know that it's flawed/wrong/evil/immoral/harmful to initiate violence on someone for dissenting, so if a person commits such an act, then I know that his action is flawed/wrong/evil/immoral/harmful because it contradicts this idea.

    If you are not claiming it is Islamic, why are you insisting it is mostly found in Muslim communities? You said it does "not exist at all" outside of Muslim communities, which is completely untrue.

    I did not say that. You are attributing *your words* to me.

    I said that it doesn't exist at all in so many other communities.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #88 - March 08, 2014, 09:55 PM

    Wait a minute. Are you saying that you don't notice flaws unless the flaws cause a feeling?


    I did not say that. You are attributing *your words* to me.

    I said that it doesn't exist at all in so many other communities.


    Of course it causes a feeling. How do you figure out what is immoral if you don't have a feeling to alert you that something is wrong?
    If something is amiss in your environment, your first indication is a feeling. No one is running through their entire internal personal database when they see something out of place.
    That is the sort of thing that actually allows immoral practices, because it is "just their culture" or whatever excuses a person will make to justify doing nothing about something wrong. Because you have no personal frame of reference to compare it to.

    "doesn't exist at all in so many other communities."

    What do you think "doesn't exist at all" means? The implication here is that it is found in Muslim communities, as you have mentioned them, and not in others. That is not accurate.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #89 - March 08, 2014, 11:19 PM

    Quote from: three
    Of course it causes a feeling. How do you figure out what is immoral if you don't have a feeling to alert you that something is wrong?

    I said how. I said this:

    Quote
    I can know that an idea, or action, is flawed because it contradicts my current knowledge. For example, I know that it's flawed/wrong/evil/immoral/harmful to initiate violence on someone for dissenting, so if a person commits such an act, then I know that his action is flawed/wrong/evil/immoral/harmful because it contradicts this idea.


    Quote from: three
    If something is amiss in your environment, your first indication is a feeling. No one is running through their entire internal personal database when they see something out of place.

    I don't understand why you think that it takes a long time to do that. Try this one out. 1 + 1 = 3. How long did it take you to know that is wrong?

    Quote from: three
    That is the sort of thing that actually allows immoral practices, because it is "just their culture" or whatever excuses a person will make to justify doing nothing about something wrong. Because you have no personal frame of reference to compare it to.

    What are you talking about? Having knowledge about right and wrong *IS* one's personal frame of reference that one compares stuff to.

    Quote from: three
    "doesn't exist at all in so many other communities."

    What do you think "doesn't exist at all" means? The implication here is that it is found in Muslim communities, as you have mentioned them, and not in others. That is not accurate.

    No.  Compare these statements:

    A) "...doesn't exist at all in so many other communities"

    B) "...doesn't exist at all in any other communities"

    You are conflating A with B, but they are different.

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