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 Topic: Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect

 (Read 12475 times)
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  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #90 - March 08, 2014, 11:48 PM

    Then why not single out Hindu culture?
    When you mention one and no other, you place the blame on one and no other. So is your beef with Islam or is it with honour culture? Be a purist about this, and hold everyone accountable, or don't call anyone out at all. Because this is a huge global issue, and placing focus on one small part of the world is not very nice to the victims in the rest of the world.
    "Does not exist at all" is an emphatic statement with no accuracy behind it. It simply is sensational.

    Right and wrong are flexible. There are some universals, but much of this changes from culture to culture. Imposing your own morals on someone else can be wrong, and it can be right, it depends on the situation, and for certain someone will always disagree. We see the effects of this fear, the fear of imposing Western morals on other cultures, all the time. Like in the FGM petition experiment. People were signing FOR FGM.

    In your postings you consistently deny instinct and emotion. I am not going to try to explain to you how this is more efficient than data. Humans are not computers, and should not be stripped of emotional nor of emotional reaction. Logic is not king. We had a definite testing environment present during evolution, and I assume if logic were king, we would no longer possess gut feelings. But we do. So I am not going to convince you of this. Instinct and emotion are very handy, get some if you don't believe me.

    One and one do make three. I ought to know, as I am three. There are many ways to make three from one and one.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #91 - March 09, 2014, 12:30 AM

    Quote from: three
    Then why not single out Hindu culture?

    Maybe you didn't notice but I changed my sentence to be more clear about that. I said this:
    Quote
    It’s a huge problem in Islamic communities[1], among others, and it’s something that doesn’t exist at all in so many other communities.


    Quote from: three
    When you mention one and no other, you place the blame on one and no other. So is your beef with Islam or is it with honour culture?

    Both. But for this essay, I was talking about honor culture. I mentioned Islam because I wanted to give an example of why Muslims get offended by their prophet being criticized or "insulted". Also, this honor violence stuff is mostly happening in Islamic communities. One statistic I read was that 95% of all honor violence is committed by Muslims.

    Quote from: three
    Be a purist about this, and hold everyone accountable, or don't call anyone out at all. Because this is a huge global issue, and placing focus on one small part of the world is not very nice to the victims in the rest of the world.

    Does saying "It's a huge problem in Islamic communities[1], among others..." solve that problem?

    Quote from: three
    "Does not exist at all" is an emphatic statement with no accuracy behind it. It simply is sensational.

    If you think it's flawed, then explain the flaw.

    In my community, honor violence doesn't happen *at all*. And there are lots and lots of communities like mine.

    Quote from: three
    Right and wrong are flexible. There are some universals, but much of this changes from culture to culture.

    Huh? Just because a culture thinks an idea or act is wrong, doesn't make it wrong. Cultures are just sets of ideas. And it's the ideas that are right or wrong.

    Quote from: three
    Imposing your own morals on someone else can be wrong, and it can be right, it depends on the situation, and for certain someone will always disagree.

    The only time it's right to impose my morals on another person is if that person has initiated violence on me -- I'll meet force with force in order to restore peace. There are other cases too but I've giving a general idea that covers lots and lots of situations.

    And I could give a shit less if the guy who initiated violence on me disagrees with my morals -- he's the one that created a conflict between us, and I'm the one who's going to end the conflict.
    Quote from: three
    We see the effects of this fear, the fear of imposing Western morals on other cultures, all the time. Like in the FGM petition experiment. People were signing FOR FGM.

    I'm not familiar with that, but I'll speak generally about stuff. It's wrong for me to impose my morals, i.e. do something to him against his will, unless he has already initiated violence on me (against my will), in which case what I'm doing is restoring peace by meeting force with force.
    Quote from: three
    In your postings you consistently deny instinct and emotion.

    No I haven't. You haven't understood me. You shouldn't attribute ideas to me without quoting what I said, and giving an argument for what you think the correct interpretation is of what I said.
    Quote from: three
    I am not going to try to explain to you how this is more efficient than data. Humans are not computers, and should not be stripped of emotional nor of emotional reaction. Logic is not king.

    Wait a minute. Did you just equate the human faculty of reason with computers? Today's computers DO NOT have the human faculty of reason. So why are you equating them? It doesn't make sense.

    And about efficiency, you seem to be thinking that I disagree with you on this point. But I don't, and I don't really know how you got this idea.

    Intuitions (instincts/gut feelings) and emotions are pretty much automatic. They are good/useful because they are faaaaast.
    Quote from: three
    We had a definite testing environment present during evolution, and I assume if logic were king, we would no longer possess gut feelings. But we do.

    That doesn't make sense. Gut feelings are part of our inexplicit knowledge. Why do you think that having the faculty of reason means getting rid of our inexplicit knowledge?
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #92 - March 09, 2014, 02:04 AM

    You are all over the place.
    I have no clue what your intention is in regard to addressing honor killings. I give up.







    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #93 - March 09, 2014, 02:19 AM

    I'm still amazed there was such confusion from what I thought was a simple hypothesis on my part.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #94 - March 09, 2014, 03:03 AM

    Yes, that was bewildering.
    This is like being stuck in a maze or something.
    Do you know the way out?

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #95 - March 09, 2014, 03:42 AM

    I give up.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #96 - March 09, 2014, 09:19 AM

    You are all over the place.

    What do you mean?
    I have no clue what your intention is in regard to addressing honor killings. I give up.

    The essay is explaining why people do it -- the mindset that causes it -- the flawed ideas that cause it.

    It's written for people who don't understand why anybody would commit honor violence.
  • Honor Violence: Why nobody should demand respect
     Reply #97 - March 09, 2014, 09:28 AM

    I'm still amazed there was such confusion from what I thought was a simple hypothesis on my part.

    So you're assuming that I was the one confused. You shouldn't make such assumptions.

    I explained to you what you did wrong. I even gave you a way to fix it, but you didn't.

    What you should have done is to present it like this: Take 2 situations that are alike in every way except for 1 thing. They are alike in that a guy raped your daughter, and you beat him to death. They are different in that in one case you caught the rape happening, and in the second case you found out about the rape a week after the incident, after the child already went to the hospital, is back home, is calm and collected, and the rapist is already in jail awaiting trial, etc.

    In the first case, he had only a split second to decide what to do. In the second case, he had a lot of time to contemplate, to decide, to plan (he planned to beat him to death after the rapist got out of prison, or something, I don't have a better hypothetical at the moment).

    In the first case, he was acting only on emotion (since there was not enough time to think rationally). In the second case, he had lots and lots of time to think rationally after his initiate emotion.

    I agree that these cases should *not* be judged the same. In the first case, his action should be excused -- he could have used less force to stop him but he didn't have time to think rationally about it. In the second case, he should be jailed for murder.
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