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 Topic: Revenge: Why do people want it?

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  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #30 - April 03, 2014, 05:57 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on April 03, 2014, 05:40 PM
    I'm not clear on a part of what you're saying. Let's consider an example.

    A murderer is put in jail. Does this constitute justice in your view? Is it revenge?



    I think it is justice that the murderer is punished for his/her crimes. I do not believe in death penalty, but since I am not very knowledgeable in jurisprudence and legal theory, I would rather not discuss exactly how long of a jail sentence would be "justice". It all depends on the different factors in each case.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #31 - April 03, 2014, 08:51 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on April 03, 2014, 05:55 PM
    SO now I'm gonna share a little anecdote from my teen years. Once, many years ago as a 17 year old, this girl put her hand under my friends skirt and squeezed her ass. My friend was both chocked and degraded by it, and my spontaneous reaction was to yell out something along the line "you fucking garbage". So the little piece of shit (yes, I still feel antipathy when I remember the incident) thought she was sooo tough, came up to me challenging me if it was me who had called her that. I said to her face, yeah it was me. You are garbage, disrespecting my friend like that. Have you no manners or respect for other people. So she reacted with giving me a bitch slap, but regretted it immediately when I stood up to defend myself. I beat her up so much that I think I broke her nose, and she had to call out for her boyfriend to come and save her. He had to drag me off of her and they ran away with their tales between their legs. Now, don't misunderstand. I do NOT condone violence, but sometimes you have to defend yourself and teach someone a lesson that they can't just go up to some random people and think they can get away with whatever they want. I don't think she ever did that again, or so I hope at least. And people knew that I was the nicest person, respectful towards everyone and wouldn't hurt a fly. But don't mess with me because I will stand up for myself.

    That is the right thing to do  Afro
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #32 - April 03, 2014, 09:49 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on April 03, 2014, 05:55 PM
    SO now I'm gonna share a little anecdote from my teen years. Once, many years ago as a 17 year old, this girl put her hand under my friends skirt and squeezed her ass. My friend was both chocked and degraded by it, and my spontaneous reaction was to yell out something along the line "you fucking garbage". So the little piece of shit (yes, I still feel antipathy when I remember the incident) thought she was sooo tough, came up to me challenging me if it was me who had called her that. I said to her face, yeah it was me. You are garbage, disrespecting my friend like that. Have you no manners or respect for other people. So she reacted with giving me a bitch slap, but regretted it immediately when I stood up to defend myself. I beat her up so much that I think I broke her nose, and she had to call out for her boyfriend to come and save her. He had to drag me off of her and they ran away with their tales between their legs. Now, don't misunderstand. I do NOT condone violence, but sometimes you have to defend yourself and teach someone a lesson that they can't just go up to some random people and think they can get away with whatever they want. I don't think she ever did that again, or so I hope at least. And people knew that I was the nicest person, respectful towards everyone and wouldn't hurt a fly. But don't mess with me because I will stand up for myself.

     


    Damn Cornflower !

    Respect  !  *fistbump*
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #33 - April 03, 2014, 11:04 PM
    Grin Ha, Cornflower. I can't say I've ever gotten in a physical fight with another woman, and the thought of it scares me. I have seen too much hair ripped out.

    When I was a kid, my mother sat me down on the edge of my bed and told me the story about how she kicked another child who had been bullying her in the face while they were hanging from the monkey bars in the playground, and she was never bullied again. I don't remember why she was telling me this, but I grew up with the feeling that my mother at least would be understanding if I ever had to kick someone in the face.
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #34 - April 04, 2014, 02:32 AM
    I didn't fight with girls. I beat up boys who bothered girls, and I left the girls alone. I was on my own personal one girl playground patrol. I prefer kicking to pulling hair, even as an adult, though I haven't really kicked many people as an adult. Er, at least no one that I regret having stomped on.
    So when my son gets in trouble at daycare, yet again, for fighting, I remember that I grew out of it, in my twenties, and fervently pray that this be the same in his case, or sooner.
    Cornflower, you are a righteous girl. Shyness, vengeance, studies, and all. You should be proud of who you are.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #35 - April 04, 2014, 04:57 AM
    Ha, you all flatter me too much! But if you have to defend yourself physically, don't pull hair, but fight right with your nuckles. I've noticed even boys/men get intimidated if you show that you're not gonna "fight like a girl".
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #36 - April 04, 2014, 03:37 PM
    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on April 03, 2014, 05:42 PM
    I avoid violence except in pure self defence or if someone pisses me off waay past my limits. Which is pretty difficult to do.


    I will probably end up losing cool when being pressurized to convert after I apostatize and I can see myself punching my salafi cousin in the eye if he tries to bully me or something.

    I don't think that is revenge. I think it's self-defense. Because you're saying that you would do it *while* they are doing it, as a means to stop them from continuing doing it.
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #37 - April 04, 2014, 03:45 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on April 03, 2014, 05:55 PM
    SO now I'm gonna share a little anecdote from my teen years. Once, many years ago as a 17 year old, this girl put her hand under my friends skirt and squeezed her ass. My friend was both chocked and degraded by it, and my spontaneous reaction was to yell out something along the line "you fucking garbage". So the little piece of shit (yes, I still feel antipathy when I remember the incident) thought she was sooo tough, came up to me challenging me if it was me who had called her that. I said to her face, yeah it was me. You are garbage, disrespecting my friend like that. Have you no manners or respect for other people. So she reacted with giving me a bitch slap, but regretted it immediately when I stood up to defend myself. I beat her up so much that I think I broke her nose, and she had to call out for her boyfriend to come and save her. He had to drag me off of her and they ran away with their tales between their legs. Now, don't misunderstand. I do NOT condone violence, but sometimes you have to defend yourself and teach someone a lesson that they can't just go up to some random people and think they can get away with whatever they want. I don't think she ever did that again, or so I hope at least. And people knew that I was the nicest person, respectful towards everyone and wouldn't hurt a fly. But don't mess with me because I will stand up for myself.

    I don't think that's revenge.

    Somebody did something evil. You pronounced moral judgement on that person for doing that evil thing. That person came to you to start a fight -- she said some words expecting you to throw a punch. You didn't throw a punch and instead you said more words. Then *she* threw a punch -- so she started the fight. Then you defended yourself. At this point you were mad (maybe not at the person, but mad at the idea of what that person did)  -- so you kept hitting. So, what started as self-defense (which is good) became more than that.

    I don't think that's revenge, and rather it was a reaction while being emotionally charged.

    Let's say you had time to calm down. Would you plan to hurt that person (and then after hurting him, would you feel joy that they are hurting)?
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #38 - April 04, 2014, 03:46 PM
    Quote from: Rubaya on April 03, 2014, 05:57 PM
    What Cornflower calls justice I call revenge. It's not the delight of hurting others but the alleviation of the pain I received, partially or fully. Sometimes I forgive and sometimes do nothing because I am incapable. But I am always scared that I may overdo it or do it less. I don't believe in God or karma so I take things in my hands when possible and appropriate. Sounds really mean but that is the truth about me.

    Are you saying you would feel joy because of another person's pain? (where that person deliberately hurt you, or someone you love, first)
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #39 - April 04, 2014, 03:47 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on April 03, 2014, 05:57 PM
    I think it is justice that the murderer is punished for his/her crimes. I do not believe in death penalty, but since I am not very knowledgeable in jurisprudence and legal theory, I would rather not discuss exactly how long of a jail sentence would be "justice". It all depends on the different factors in each case.

    What is the purpose of the justice (in this case)? Is it to protect society from further crime of the criminal? Or is it to inflict pain on the criminal?
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #40 - April 04, 2014, 03:53 PM
    Quote from: lua on April 03, 2014, 11:04 PM
    Grin Ha, Cornflower. I can't say I've ever gotten in a physical fight with another woman, and the thought of it scares me. I have seen too much hair ripped out.

    When I was a kid, my mother sat me down on the edge of my bed and told me the story about how she kicked another child who had been bullying her in the face while they were hanging from the monkey bars in the playground, and she was never bullied again. I don't remember why she was telling me this, but I grew up with the feeling that my mother at least would be understanding if I ever had to kick someone in the face.

    If you are ever in a situation where you are forced to be somewhere (like many kids are forced to be in a particular school), and where students are doing non-violent bullying while no teachers care to stop it (which is common, especially in the past), then I think violent self-defense is the right thing to do.

    I should clarify that other approaches should be ruled out first. The child can tell a teacher. Or ask his parent to switch schools. Or ask his parent to quit school altogether. And if parent doesn't help (which is wrong on the parent), then child should take things into his own hands. If kicking the bully gets him to stop doing it, then that's what he should do. Maybe he gets into trouble, but so what? The child might prefer school trouble to the trouble from this bully.

    Again, this is self-defense, not revenge.
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #41 - April 04, 2014, 04:07 PM
    Quote from: three on April 04, 2014, 02:32 AM
    I didn't fight with girls. I beat up boys who bothered girls, and I left the girls alone. I was on my own personal one girl playground patrol. I prefer kicking to pulling hair, even as an adult, though I haven't really kicked many people as an adult. Er, at least no one that I regret having stomped on.
    So when my son gets in trouble at daycare, yet again, for fighting, I remember that I grew out of it, in my twenties, and fervently pray that this be the same in his case, or sooner.
    Cornflower, you are a righteous girl. Shyness, vengeance, studies, and all. You should be proud of who you are.

    Ask him why he's doing it.

    Did somebody hit him and he's hitting back in self-defense to get him to stop? (this is fine)

    Did somebody sit in his chair? (asking the kid to get up is a better than hitting. if he doesn't get up, ask a teacher.)

    Did somebody just didn't do what he asked and your son is hitting because somebody disobeyed his command? (i.e. there was a disagreement and he resorted to initiating violence instead of 'agreeing to disagree and leaving each other alone'.)

    Being in school makes all of this harder because the teachers don't explain anything, they just give commands. And when a fight happens, they punish both the initiator and the self-defender.

    But anyway, the child won't "grow out of it". He'll either learn that it's wrong, and a better behavior instead, or he won't and will continue doing it. So it's important to help him learn why it's wrong, and a better behavior instead.

    (if you want to discuss privately, PM me and we'll exchange emails)
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #42 - April 04, 2014, 04:38 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on April 04, 2014, 03:46 PM
    Are you saying you would feel joy because of another person's pain? (where that person deliberately hurt you, or someone you love, first)


    It's not joy, just alleviation of pain. Sometimes it may give me joy and at other times it feels normal (no joy or grief). But it has nothing to do with malice. Honestly, I am afraid of taking revenge because I may overdo it. Then it will be bad and unfair. But some really bad things had happened to me in my life for which I will take revenge if I get the opportunity. It has thrown me into an abyss of grief. If I ever succeed in taking revenge for those things then maybe I will be quite happy.
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #43 - April 04, 2014, 04:46 PM
    Quote from: Rubaya
    But some really bad things had happened to me in my life for which I will take revenge if I get the opportunity. It has thrown me into an abyss of grief. If I ever succeed in taking revenge for those things then maybe I will be quite happy.

    But what do you benefit by taking revenge on that person who deliberately hurt you years ago?

    In other words, *why* will you feel happy if that person hurts?
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #44 - April 04, 2014, 04:55 PM
    Not years ago. It all ended a few months back. It had a lasting effect on me. It made me mentally weak, severely depressed, pessimistic about life and it badly affected the peace of my family. You may say I might forgive the people behind all these things. But I know what I have gone through and going through. Nobody hear including yourself don't know its details, so its only natural that you ask me to forgive. Maybe if I were in your place I would have done the same thing. But there are some things in life that can't be forgotten.
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #45 - April 04, 2014, 05:52 PM
    Quote from: Rubaya
    Not years ago. It all ended a few months back. It had a lasting effect on me. It made me mentally weak, severely depressed, pessimistic about life and it badly affected the peace of my family. You may say I might forgive the people behind all these things. But I know what I have gone through and going through. Nobody hear including yourself don't know its details, so its only natural that you ask me to forgive. Maybe if I were in your place I would have done the same thing. But there are some things in life that can't be forgotten.

    No. Not revenging doesn't mean forgiving.

    Both revenge and forgiveness are wrong.

    Both of them involve the same wrong element.

    Let's consider forgiveness. Say I did something to another person that hurt him. Let's say it was deliberate, but that I didn't realize the deliberate thing would hurt them. In response to this, let's say I admit my mistake and pay for any damages that my action caused (let's say we reached an agreement as to how much I should pay). Now, should I ask for forgiveness from that person?  No. I already got what I wanted. I admitted my mistake and fixed it.

    In the reverse way, if somebody deliberately hurt me, I won't want revenge and I won't want to forgive him. I'll just make sure he doesn't do it again, by say not interacting with that person again (i.e. don't give him another chance to deliberately hurt me). If he intends to admit his mistake and fix it, and if I believe that he won't deliberately hurt me again, then maybe I'll consider interacting with him again, but that doesn't mean forgiveness.
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #46 - April 04, 2014, 06:03 PM
    Because there is existential dissatisfaction when the state of things is not even, and there is delight and empowerment in satisfying an appetite for justice.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #47 - April 04, 2014, 06:06 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on April 04, 2014, 05:52 PM
    Both revenge and forgiveness are wrong.

     Cheesy
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #48 - April 04, 2014, 06:14 PM
    Let's consider forgiveness. Say I did something to another person that hurt him. Let's say it was deliberate, but that I didn't realize the deliberate thing would hurt them. In response to this, let's say I admit my mistake and pay for any damages that my action caused (let's say we reached an agreement as to how much I should pay). Now, should I ask for forgiveness from that person?  No. I already got what I wanted. I admitted my mistake and fixed it.

    If that was the case I would tell the person that (s)he had hurt me and would ask the person not to do it again. I wouldn't want any payback because that wasn't intentional. I call that forgiveness. Of course there are cases when an individual both knowingly and intentionally hurt me. Sometimes I do forgive considering relationship, age, etc. Take for example if someone had spilled curry on a dress I am very fond of, if that person was a child I would forgive him or her. But if that person was an adult I would at least show my disappointment and chid him or her.
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #49 - April 04, 2014, 06:48 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on April 04, 2014, 06:03 PM
    Because there is existential dissatisfaction when the state of things is not even, and there is delight and empowerment in satisfying an appetite for justice.

    That doesn't explain why the person cares that things need to be made *even*.
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #50 - April 04, 2014, 08:17 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on April 04, 2014, 06:06 PM
    Cheesy

    Awesome little robot, huh? Cheesy
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #51 - April 04, 2014, 11:19 PM

    Quote
    Both revenge and forgiveness are wrong


    Whaaaaaat?
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #52 - April 04, 2014, 11:21 PM
    At this point I just sit back and laugh.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #53 - April 04, 2014, 11:54 PM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on April 04, 2014, 04:07 PM
    Ask him why he's doing it.

    Did somebody hit him and he's hitting back in self-defense to get him to stop? (this is fine)

    Did somebody sit in his chair? (asking the kid to get up is a better than hitting. if he doesn't get up, ask a teacher.)

    Did somebody just didn't do what he asked and your son is hitting because somebody disobeyed his command? (i.e. there was a disagreement and he resorted to initiating violence instead of 'agreeing to disagree and leaving each other alone'.)

    Being in school makes all of this harder because the teachers don't explain anything, they just give commands. And when a fight happens, they punish both the initiator and the self-defender.

    But anyway, the child won't "grow out of it". He'll either learn that it's wrong, and a better behavior instead, or he won't and will continue doing it. So it's important to help him learn why it's wrong, and a better behavior instead.

    (if you want to discuss privately, PM me and we'll exchange emails)


    My son is doing it because he is special needs and has PTSD, and because his father taught him to do it.
    I am a child who "grew out of it". It's about development, impulse control, and maturity.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #54 - April 05, 2014, 12:10 AM
    Bless his heart, I am sure he will grow out of it. I, too, was kind of an angry kid and a tomboy, and I did get in my fair share of fights at a young age. I was actually known for my temper. But I also outgrew it with no real outside intervention.
  • Revenge: Why do people want it?
     Reply #55 - April 05, 2014, 02:50 AM
    Quote from: RamiRustom on April 03, 2014, 04:34 PM
    But what did the guy who did the punch gain? Do you mean he gained the satisfaction that this guy learned a lesson and which that lesson benefits society (including himself)?


    I think you may have missed the point I was making. I was not suggesting that my friend's actions constituted revenge. Instead, I was saying that my friend's explanation of the reason of his actions could be analogous to the actual reason our craving for revenge exists in nature. And by satisfying this craving, as is the case when we satisfy our cravings for food, sex, sunshine, etc, we end up performing an act that is ultimately beneficial for us, ensuring our survival, even if we had not directly intended that with the act itself.

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