Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK

12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
OP - April 09, 2014, 04:58 PM

While I agree in principle of the idea of assisted dying being sanctioned here in the UK, I do realise that there should be a very narrow field within which it can be applied, with medical advice being the major part of the discussion, and the law needs to be clear and unambiguous with little room for 'interpretation'.

I bring this up because I recently read this, which is EXACTLY what I would not want here in the UK and as the debate is currently in the mainstream press, I wondered at what point is euthanasia justified?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/retired-british-art-teacher-ends-life-at-dignitas-because-she-couldnt-adapt-to-modern-world-9242053.html

"An 89-year-old British woman has killed herself at the Dignitas assisted suicide clinic in Switzerland, in part because she had become fed up with the modern world of emails, TVs, computers and supermarket ready meals.

Speaking in an interview before her death and asking only to be identified as Anne, the former art teacher and Royal Navy engineer said she had had enough of “swimming against the current” of the world.

In her application to Dignitas she reportedly described her life as “full, with so many adventures and tremendous independence”, but had recently found her strength and health fading and feared the prospect of a prolonged period in hospital or a nursing home.

Anne, from Sussex, was neither terminally ill nor seriously handicapped when she died, and beforehand spoke out in favour of people having the right to die in the UK.

She told the Sunday Times: “They say adapt or die. At my age, I feel that I can’t adapt, because the new age is not an age that I grew up to understand. I see everything as cutting corners. All the old-fashioned ways of doing things have gone.”

Anne told the newspaper she felt email had taken the humanity out of human interaction, and said people were “becoming robots” sat in front of screens.

She described her horror at the rows of ready-made meals on sale in supermarkets, and her fears about the environmental impact of overcrowding and pollution.

“I find myself swimming against the current, and you can’t do that,” she said. “If you can’t join them, get off.”

Michael Irwin, the founder of the Society for Old Age Rational Suicide (Soars), helped Anne with her application to Dignitas. He said she had ended her life “with quiet determination”, and that her only “regret” was that she had been made to travel to Switzerland, accompanied by her 54-year-old niece, to do so.

Anne killed herself on the 27 March. Just the day before, David Cameron said he would oppose the relaxing of assisted suicide laws in Britain on the grounds that people could feel “unfairly pressurised” into ending their lives.

The Prime Minister intervened when the Liberal Democrat Care Minister, Norman Lamb, claimed that proposed legislation to legalise the practice among terminally ill adults with less than six months to live had achieved “quite widespread public support”.

Assisted suicide remains a criminal offence in England and Wales, technically punishable by up to 14 years in prison – though Crown Prosecution Service guidelines indicate anyone acting with compassion to fulfil a dying person’s wishes is unlikely to face criminal charges."

The medical profession has an oath to uphold, (some doctors may opt out) and I am sure we can agree that only the most painful and horrid suffering should be alleviated by euthanasia if there is no other way, and the patient has expressed such a wish.

Before this is made legal here in the UK (or anywhere else for that matter) I would like to see a very well though out legal framework, and I am extremely hesitant to rush in and copy the Swiss or Dutch models.

I am sure we in the UK can draft better legislation than the Swiss have in this case, but where should the line be drawn? Depression or disillusionment is not a good enough reason for me.

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- Ishina
- Militant Atheist
- Ex-Muslim
- No Fate But What We Make
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #1 - April 09, 2014, 05:17 PM

I think those who stand against it generally do so out of their own self-interest, not out of any altruistic or substantive concern for those suffering. The idea doesn't sit right on their conscience, even as an abstract idea. Presumably they believe their discomfort at the idea is important enough to veto the rights of other people to manifest their own interests and end a much more profound suffering of their own. An actual experienced and fully realised suffering.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #2 - April 09, 2014, 06:10 PM

Quote
She told the Sunday Times: “They say adapt or die. At my age, I feel that I can’t adapt, because the new age is not an age that I grew up to understand. I see everything as cutting corners. All the old-fashioned ways of doing things have gone.”

Anne told the newspaper she felt email had taken the humanity out of human interaction, and said people were “becoming robots” sat in front of screens.

She described her horror at the rows of ready-made meals on sale in supermarkets, and her fears about the environmental impact of overcrowding and pollution.

“I find myself swimming against the current, and you can’t do that,” she said. “If you can’t join them, get off.”

that is stupid

plenty stupid old people on this earth one less stupid will not bother this earth and to the humanity she is worried about..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Stardust
- Founder of Neo-Hippiism
- Ex-Muslim
- Beneath The Veil
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #3 - April 09, 2014, 06:21 PM

I think I would like the option of assisted dying when I'm older. I imagine it's more and more difficult to live in a fast paced world as you get older and I think there's a certain lack of empathy that has infused in our society now, which doesn't help.

"Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #4 - April 09, 2014, 06:36 PM

Quote from: Stardust on April 09, 2014, 06:21 PM
I think I would like the option of assisted dying when I'm older.............

Some one was missing for a loooong time.. I want to have a cup of coffee/beer/wine with you and many CEMBERS and some FFI guys Stardust............

So all of you guys who want to dye Ooold (at least to the age of that lady) wait until I have a drink with you guys...lol

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #5 - April 09, 2014, 06:47 PM

Well if you're ever in the area let me know.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- Stardust
- Founder of Neo-Hippiism
- Ex-Muslim
- Beneath The Veil
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #6 - April 09, 2014, 06:59 PM

Yes, Yeezevee, I would also like that...I await your invitation

"Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #7 - April 09, 2014, 07:48 PM

I don't know about a case like this, it says her health was 'fading', but this is just a bit too quick to apply. I think life does have value, and these decisions should only be available for people with severe pain and suffering, or where human dignity is an issue, with medical consensus. Just handing them out for the reasons she gave is not what I would have in mind.

I sympathise with the lady, I too would like to be given the choice but only as an absolutely last option.

If we were to have an assisted dying law in the UK it should be more watertight than this.

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #8 - April 09, 2014, 07:50 PM

Would you stop her? Force her to live when she's made up her mind she doesn't want to?

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #9 - April 09, 2014, 07:58 PM

Quote from: Adey5 on April 09, 2014, 07:48 PM
I don't know about a case like this, it says her health was 'fading', but this is just a bit too quick to apply. I think life does have value, and these decisions should only be available for people with severe pain and suffering...

So you think people should be tortured first?

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- asbie
- Actually just a dude
- Poster of the Month
- Past, present, future...
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #10 - April 09, 2014, 10:49 PM

Well for me I have no problem with her or any other sane minded adult choosing to end their life. However, the relevant question for society is in what cases should people be receiving "assistance" to do it and to what extent. This seems like a rather fringe case to me, and probably not what "assisted suicide" legal provisions would be meant to accommodate.

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 09:05 AM
how fuck works without shit??

Let's Play Chess!

harakaat, friend, RIP
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #11 - April 15, 2014, 03:17 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on April 09, 2014, 07:58 PM
So you think people should be tortured first?

Er.... don't know where you got that idea from my post.

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #12 - April 15, 2014, 03:24 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on April 09, 2014, 07:50 PM
Would you stop her? Force her to live when she's made up her mind she doesn't want to?

Stop her? Well I cant force her to keep living can I, and as far as I am aware, (attempted) suicide is not a crime. I am just suggesting that if there is a law on assisted dying, the state should only sanction euthanasia for persons who are in extreme pain or have a terminal illness that is affecting their comfort or dignity, and base this on medical advice with approval of several doctors.

I am sure we would not want clinics to just carry out euthanasia to anyone who asks without some form of good medical reason.

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #13 - April 15, 2014, 03:38 PM

Quote from: asbie on April 09, 2014, 10:49 PM
Well for me I have no problem with her or any other sane minded adult choosing to end their life. However, the relevant question for society is in what cases should people be receiving "assistance" to do it and to what extent. This seems like a rather fringe case to me, and probably not what "assisted suicide" legal provisions would be meant to accommodate.

Yes this is my point. There should be some assessment by professionals and there should be a chain of 'command' before such deeds are endorsed by the state. Otherwise we could have 'sane' adults who could request assisted dying for all sorts of bad reasons.

eg

"My partner/wife left me and I want to die"

"I have had my legs amputated/I am disabled and I just cant go on living like this"

"I have been declared bankrupt and I just cant go on living poor"

"I am old and technology just scares me"

People in such circumstances should have access to various support groups and other agencies who can assist in their tragedies and help them to come to terms with whatever problem they have as best they can.

Am I the only one here who thinks that people should not be helped to die by state sponsorship at the first point of asking and for whatever reason that they feel like?

Just think of all the people who have attempted suicide and failed, and then came out of or came to terms with their depression/problems to live happy fulfilling lives? I bet they are glad now that they were not successful in their attempt and that they wish that someone that had talked them out of their rather terminal decisions.

I am not trying to minimise peoples problems but just suggesting where the line for state sponsored assisted suicide should be drawn if this was to be legalised in the UK.

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #14 - April 15, 2014, 03:43 PM

Quote from: asbie on April 09, 2014, 10:49 PM
Well for me I have no problem with her or any other sane minded adult choosing to end their life.

You see a man on a cliff edge and he looks like he is going to jump, you ask him why, he says he is depressed/grieving/lost his home.

Do you try to talk him out of it or just let him jump, and perhaps advise him to jump from higher up so that he will be killed instantly? Or perhaps tell him "oh just go to this clinic and they will do it for you"

I guess your answer would be to try to talk him out of it.

This is the point I am making.

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #15 - April 15, 2014, 03:46 PM

What if the man is in his 80s, has had a good full life, doesn't like life now and has made the rational decision in sound mind that his time has come, knowing that he would be unhappy if he continues to live?

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #16 - April 15, 2014, 03:54 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on April 09, 2014, 07:58 PM
So you think people should be tortured first?

Quote from: Adey5 on April 15, 2014, 03:17 PM
Er.... don't know where you got that idea from my post.

Quote from: Adey5 on April 09, 2014, 07:48 PM
I don't know about a case like this, it says her health was 'fading', but this is just a bit too quick to apply. I think life does have value, and these decisions should only be available for people with severe pain and suffering....

So, extreme pain and suffering = torture. If you would withhold euthanasia, except when people were already enduring severe pain and sufferring....

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #17 - April 15, 2014, 04:29 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on April 15, 2014, 03:46 PM
What if the man is in his 80s, has had a good full life, doesn't like life now and has made the rational decision in sound mind that his time has come, knowing that he would be unhappy if he continues to live?

IMO this is not a good enough reason. Also the reason "I dont like life" seems absurd, what is the alternative.

Why does he have to be old in his 80s., what if a 30year old asked the same? How do you legislate for this? Only 80 year olds and above?

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #18 - April 15, 2014, 04:31 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on April 15, 2014, 03:54 PM

So, extreme pain and suffering = torture. If you would withhold euthanasia, except when people were already enduring severe pain and sufferring....

If they are in pain and suffering then that is a good reason to be considered. I thought I made this clear right off the bat in my first message.

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #19 - April 15, 2014, 04:33 PM

Seems I am the only one not prepared to give out state sponsored assisted dying willy-nilly on demand. But I do appreciate your comments and opinions. Some things to think about certainly.

Perhaps I am asking the wrong question.

Are there any hypothetical cases or scenarios where state assisted suicide should NOT be given automatically on demand to sane, non-terminally-ill adults who have no physical pain or suffering? And how would you decide the criteria for who gets 'wacked' and who doesn't?

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #20 - April 15, 2014, 04:39 PM

Quote from: Adey5 on April 15, 2014, 04:31 PM
If they are in pain and suffering then that is a good reason to be considered. I thought I made this clear right off the bat in my first message.

Yes, but you want them to have to go through the pain and suffering first.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #21 - April 15, 2014, 04:45 PM

No, not necessarily. once debilitating pain that cannot be alleviated has begun and the doctors think it is a downhill slope then you may have a very strong case for euthanasia. I would not wish to drag this out as long as possible, of course not.

The case that I started the post with, did not seem to be such an example.

Of course the issues should be care for the elderly be improved and there is lots more we can and should do to help the vulnerable, but just pulling the plug straight away seems......... a bit jumping to the last resort too early.

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- Luthiel
- Patriot
- Administrator
- Make my head twirl
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #22 - April 15, 2014, 04:51 PM

Quote from: Adey5 on April 15, 2014, 03:38 PM
Just think of all the people who have attempted suicide and failed, and then came out of or came to terms with their depression/problems to live happy fulfilling lives? I bet they are glad now that they were not successful in their attempt and that they wish that someone that had talked them out of their rather terminal decisions.

Yes, because they were mentally ill and got better. Mental illness is a very good reason to deny someone euthanasia. However, for someone who is not mentally ill, who is anyone else to tell them what kind of quality of life they should or should not be willing to accept?

Quote from: Adey5 on April 15, 2014, 03:38 PM
"I am old and technology just scares me"

Assuming you're referring to the woman in the article, that's not a fair summary of her decision to die. It makes for a great headline, which is why they focused on it, but her decision was sane and well-considered. Maybe you overlooked this part:

Quote
had recently found her strength and health fading and feared the prospect of a prolonged period in hospital or a nursing home.

That sounds like a perfectly reasonable motivation to me. At her age, with health and strength failing, why prolong things until she is suffering? Should someone be forced to experience pain and suffering before they are allowed to die? Can they not choose to die peacefully before they must experience those things? And again, who is anyone else to say what a sane person considers to be suffering?

The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
- 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #23 - April 15, 2014, 04:56 PM

OK This may be just a borderline case, but one of the main reasons given in the article was aversion to technology, which is not a sufficient reason IMO.

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #24 - April 15, 2014, 04:57 PM

How do you know it was one of her main reasons?

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #25 - April 15, 2014, 05:02 PM

Quote from: Luthiel on April 15, 2014, 04:51 PM
Yes, because they were mentally ill and got better. Mental illness is a very good reason to deny someone euthanasia. However, for someone who is not mentally ill, who is anyone else to tell them what kind of quality of life they should or should not be willing to accept?
Assuming you're referring to the woman in the article, that's not a fair summary of her decision to die. It makes for a great headline, which is why they focused on it, but her decision was sane and well-considered. Maybe you overlooked this part:

That sounds like a perfectly reasonable motivation to me. At her age, with health and strength failing, why prolong things until she is suffering? Should someone be forced to experience pain and suffering before they are allowed to die? Can they not choose to die peacefully before they must experience those things? And again, who is anyone else to say what a sane person considers to be suffering?

She was obviously fearing loneliness and was worried about going into a home, but surely the first answer would be to improve care for the elderly so they don't feel as though later life and the care home environment is so depressing to the point that they would rather be dead.

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- Luthiel
- Patriot
- Administrator
- Make my head twirl
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #26 - April 15, 2014, 05:07 PM

No. You don't get to explain for her what she was feeling or what she needed. How about not imposing your own opinion on other people's personal life decisions, mkay?

The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
- 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #27 - April 15, 2014, 05:08 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on April 15, 2014, 04:57 PM
How do you know it was one of her main reasons?

"...the former art teacher and Royal Navy engineer said she had had enough of “swimming against the current” of the world.

In her application to Dignitas she reportedly described her life as “full, with so many adventures and tremendous independence”, but had recently found her strength and health fading and feared the prospect of a prolonged period in hospital or a nursing home.

Anne, from Sussex, was neither terminally ill nor seriously handicapped when she died,...."

Ok I feel for her I really do. I am not villifying her at all. I just feel sad that she felt this was her only way out.

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #28 - April 15, 2014, 05:10 PM

Hey, I was asking about this reason, not every reason given in the article.

Quote from: Adey5 on April 15, 2014, 04:56 PM
OK This may be just a borderline case, but one of the main reasons given in the article was aversion to technology, which is not a sufficient reason IMO.

So, how do you know it was one of her main reasons?

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- Adey5
- Pub Regular
- No Nonsense Non-believer
- offline
Assisted dying/Euthanasia in the UK
Reply #29 - April 15, 2014, 05:12 PM

Quote from: Luthiel on April 15, 2014, 05:07 PM
No. You don't get to explain for her what she was feeling or what she needed. How about not imposing your own opinion on other people's personal life decisions, mkay?

Good point, but where should legislation draw the line, and do you think there should be a line at all? Is there anyone at all you would refuse this option?

I am better than your god......and so are you.

"Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »