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Theme Changer

 Topic: The Religious Mind Parasite

 (Read 5962 times)
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  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     OP - May 15, 2014, 02:50 AM

    Many of you are likely familiar with the idea of religion as a meme, a mind parasite, if you will that has co-evolved along with its human host. Having its origins in the superstitions that arose due to misfirings of our survival instincts, religion would have  emerged as ideas when Homo sapiens first assigned agency to the forces of nature that triggered our “fight or flight” reflexes, among other reflexes.

    Once incepted, superstitions and religions would have spread in the real estate of our minds, competing for that space against other ideas and morphing and evolving as they dug deeper into our psyche in ways that would ensure their survival in us, the host. The most advanced religions would develop a sort of symbiotic relationship with us, giving us benefits like comfort and social harmony while literally draining us of our physical, logical, and creative resources.

    But like I said, most of you are probably familiar with this theory. If you are not, I highly recommend that you watch this video by Dr. Daniel Dennett, author of Breaking the Spell, who explains this position far more eloquently than I ever could.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV-6vJcwJkc

    As I thought about the implications a little more this evening, though, this thought really gave me something to ponder: what if the emergence of atheism as an idea and as a movement in many instances is really an example of an adaptation of the religious meme/parasite that aids its own survival?

    Religion as an idea has no agency or vested interest in the form it takes; so long as it continues to exist it will continue to represent the successful evolution of an idea. Therefore, as human beings can rationally demonstrate that the things that have manifestly constituted religion should not exist any longer amongst us, the idea of religion has no choice but to morph into atheism in order to survive. By atheists having to discuss, confront, and disprove the things that make up religion, the idea itself is perpetuated in our minds. Even as we as disbelievers seemingly have to discuss the topic on regular occasion, the topic itself lives on as a success in spite of whether we like it or not. In a sense, it has survived the anti-virus as something else entirely. It doesn’t die.

    As I type this, I’m not sure it will make sense to everyone, but if it makes sense to you, please discuss. Also, if you know of anyone else who has documented reaching this conclusion as well, please share as I am interested in reading more.
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #1 - May 15, 2014, 04:57 AM

    That is an interesting thought, I believe we are just on the crust of great change with regards to losing religion.

    But here is a question for you, many religious people believe that men need religion to survive, which yes could have been true before when information was so scarce but in the 21st century with all the knowledge and information do you think people can now survive and function as a society without religion? And are societies ready for that as yet?

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #2 - May 15, 2014, 08:45 AM

    It's an interesting hypothesis alright and one I've come across too. There is certainly weight behind the idea but it's still just a theory and like much of the subject matter it evolved from itself, it may never be possible to prove or disprove either way.
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #3 - May 15, 2014, 08:50 AM

    It is the shackles of religion which we have thrown off that we have turned into a religion in form. The common unity of the irreligious which still see those shackles nearby due to religious. Those shackles we must continually fight off lest we find ourselves bound once more. From my point of view religion and atheism is just like any other idea which binds a group of individuals into a society; family, tribe, clan, race, etc. It's all part of the sociopolitical construct we use to create a society. Both religion and atheism are just more colourful ideas within this construct. All promote cooperation with those who hold similar beliefs. Some promote cooperation of the out-group for the benefit of the in-group or to pressure conversion. Change religion to a political party and you will see the same ideas. Remove the excess baggage and all these ideas are the same at their core.

  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #4 - May 15, 2014, 04:58 PM

    It's an interesting hypothesis alright and one I've come across too. There is certainly weight behind the idea but it's still just a theory and like much of the subject matter it evolved from itself, it may never be possible to prove or disprove either way.


    I don’t think it is necessarily a matter of not being able to prove it or disprove it. The theory of evolution is one that has already been proven to work among a variety of samples with all sorts of manifestations. The concept that things most suited to survive will survive and will morph and adapt as improvements occur is a proven one. The car that you drive is an example of evolution, so is the cell phone you use to make calls and the computer you use to write messages. None of those things “popped” into existence on their own. They are products of a long process of evolution, with human beings and our needs and discoveries playing the role of the agent of selection.

    It is also a theory that exists as it relates to language. In the video, Dr. Dennett makes reference to the theory of language evolution in which language is viewed essentially as its own entity, its own organism, its own animal, if you will. It spread among human beings much in the same way that a virus would spread, morphing, adapting, and evolving, creating distinct species of language as it did. It was an idea that I was first introduced to as I studied language, though I never fully appreciated the genius behind it until recently. Language displays a symbiotic relationship with human beings. It exists alongside us to our benefit and to its benefit. Verbal language exists in our minds with minimal stewardship. Written language, however, requires our care and cultivation to survive, much in the same way that domesticated animals depend on us for their survival.

    As it relates to religion, if we view it as its own independent natural ideological organism, then it competes for the space within our minds where it exists. To do this, it will find itself most successful if it evolves into something that also brings value to the host. It is a form of domestication. Tobacco, corn, sugar, wheat, cotton, coffee, and marijuana, for example, are plants that have done extremely well because they have proven themselves beneficial to another organism, namely, human beings. As we have found those crops useful, pleasurable, edible, etc, we have actively sought to keep them in existence. They depend on us, but we also ensure their survival. Religions operate in much the same way. They give comfort, explanation, solidarity, and the feeling of religious bliss that adherents report. The cost of this to us is that it takes up the spaces in our minds that relate to exploration, creativity, logical deduction, etc. This is not necessarily a harmful thing. In fact, religion, like the aforementioned plants, thrives the most when we don’t view it as harmful but instead come to see it as something useful.

    Other factors come into play as well. A religion that provides the mental comfort of belief in a heaven is more likely to survive. The same is true for a religion that induces fear through belief in a hell. A religion that hijacks art, music, or architecture, or armies---phenomena that humans have found pleasurable or useful—will be more likely to survive. Religions that provide guidance for structuring
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #5 - May 15, 2014, 05:11 PM

    (Continued) a society or family, religion that gives insight into what we should eat, religion that helps us make decisions on what to wear, who to love, and who to hate, all give us some sort of benefit. Those religions are better able to survive. In the process, however, they rob us of our capacity to make those choices on our own. In a way, ideas like religion really do rule the world. They cause us to act in ways that are beneficial to them, even if those ways are not beneficial to our own personal survival.

    But the idea of religion itself must still evolve to survive. As we move away from the things that have traditionally been associated with religion in human history (gods creating things, spells causing misfortune, talismans that can ward of harm, etc.) religion has to morph into something else entirely in order to continue to occupy that space in our minds. By morphing into atheism, the idea of religion can still exist in our minds, albeit in an entirely different, a domesticated form. We still spend our time arguing about it, we still form alliances based on it, and we still invest a considerable amount of mental energy towards the idea itself. It represents almost a form of speciation. Atheism can no longer mate with religion, but it owes its existence to religion.

    We don’t spend our time not believing in trolls on Saturn’s rings, because that idea has never seriously infected our minds to begin with. We do, however, spend our time thinking about religion because that idea is truly akin to a virus that has truly spread through the human psyche. Even by fulfilling the necessity of combatting it, we are still allowing it to exist in the world of our minds.

    I find this theory extremely compelling and explanatory. I also find the idea that atheism is another manifestation of the religious mind parasite interesting, particularly as it relates to people like me who would have been extremely “infected” by the “virus.” Religion simply did not die as an idea in my mind once its assertions were debunked. It morphed into atheism which still occupies that same place. It is, in a sense, a new species that has evolved from a different ancestor.

    I get that this may seem unorthodox or even a little strange, but as a person whose two life passions have been religion and language, I think that the work that has been done in this field of study is remarkably insightful.
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #6 - May 15, 2014, 05:25 PM

    Quote
    but as a person whose two life passions have been religion and language, I think that the work that has been done in this field of study is remarkably insightful.

     

    I never understood how people could be passionate about religion.

    Even in my muslim fundie days I tried to read the quran and hadith with translations and tried to force myself to like it but trying to be fascinated by the quran after having read lots of good novels is like trying to appreciate a Mcdonalds burger after you've have eaten alot of well prepared steaks prepared by professional chefs at fine dining restaurants.

    The term well read muslim seems like an oxymoron to me. You can't possibly read all the books on philosophy and science and great novels and then think that the Quran was written by anyone more than a human.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #7 - May 15, 2014, 05:47 PM

    It makes sense if you view religion as a parasite that has conditioned its host into thinking it is good for it. There are Muslims who hold almost every degree there is to hold in the field of academia. I personally know a Muslim sociologist, a Muslim physicist, and a Muslim marine biologist, all with degrees from some of the top universities in the world. The issue is far more complex than you assert, I’m afraid, and far more fascinating to study.
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #8 - May 15, 2014, 05:50 PM

    The smartest person I know is a reverend. The guy is an absolute genius.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #9 - May 15, 2014, 06:06 PM

    It makes sense if you view religion as a parasite that has conditioned its host into thinking it is good for it. There are Muslims who hold almost every degree there is to hold in the field of academia. I personally know a Muslim sociologist, a Muslim physicist, and a Muslim marine biologist, all with degrees from some of the top universities in the world. The issue is far more complex than you assert, I’m afraid, and far more fascinating to study.

     


    I meant to say practising sunni orthodox muslims.

    I'll take a guess that the muslim sociologist that you were referring to was a liberal muslim the like of Maajid Nawaz ?

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #10 - May 15, 2014, 06:35 PM

    Interesting concept. To say atheism is merely an adaptation of the religious mind parasite brings to mind those who claim atheism IS a religion. Although by definition atheism is the opposite, a lack of religion, perhaps its manifestation in ways similar to religion -- conviction, community, etc -- is what causes some to see it as yet another religion. And if religion is its ancestor, that makes more sense than not.

    For those who are "actively" atheist in response to a religious background, even in as small a way as to simply have chosen it over religion, atheism does seem to exist in the mind as an evolution of religion. However, I would say there is one key difference between atheism and religion as mind parasites: atheism is not contagious. It doesn't get passed on between generations like religion does. At least that's how I see it, as I don't think atheism is prevalent enough yet to see exactly how it behaves. Most atheists I know are first generation atheists, and I don't see them actively passing on atheism to their children. They are raising their children in environments devoid of religious/non-religious ideas. That's not to say they don't learn about or understand religion; it simply doesn't apply to daily life, much like ancient mythology. The only role I've seen it take in their personal lives is when they interact with children of religious families; otherwise it is simply a non issue.

    If atheism is the next evolutionary step of the mind parasite of religion, then I believe it is the last one before extinction. It does not provide an inherent symbiotic relationship with the human mind, which it would need in order to survive. Atheism itself only provides a benefit in the context of religion, and by making religion irrelevant so it makes itself. That mind real estate it so desperately wants to hang onto will soon be occupied instead by science, humanism, rational thought, and the like, all of which exist independently and have no need of a host to survive.

    Of course it won't happen all at once. Evolution is a slow process. The religious mind parasite has survived a long time through many stages of evolution, and atheism may be its last ditch effort. If so, it's finally done itself in.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #11 - May 15, 2014, 07:28 PM

    As I thought about the implications a little more this evening, though, this thought really gave me something to ponder: what if the emergence of atheism as an idea and as a movement in many instances is really an example of an adaptation of the religious meme/parasite that aids its own survival?

    I don't think it works. There is no real commitment of belief or sustained faith involved in being an atheist. And most unbelievers are just not involved in the business of religion at all and most are probably not even aware that there is a word for their lack of belief. For those atheists who get involved in the conversation, it's more like an additional thing they do, like a hobby or peripheral activity.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #12 - May 15, 2014, 07:29 PM

    Not sure i would compare religion to a parasite, we have programmed our mind since early man to have a 'belief' in something, anything..  either through blind faith or evolved rational thought, don't think we can exist without some sort of belief system, be it theism, atheism, humanism, science.  Most definately i view atheism as an evolved state and next phase in our evolutionary religious thinking.  
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #13 - May 15, 2014, 08:10 PM




    I meant to say practising sunni orthodox muslims.

    I'll take a guess that the muslim sociologist hat you were referring to was a liberal muslim the like of Maajid Nawaz ?

     



    On second thought Aafia Siddiqui had a phd in neuroscience and was batshit crazy.

    Somehow these people manage to compartmentalize their thinking in a way that they don't seem to allow themselves to challenge their own beliefs.

    It seriously boggles my mind.


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #14 - May 15, 2014, 08:13 PM

    I don't think it works. There is no real commitment of belief or sustained faith involved in being an atheist. And most unbelievers are just not involved in the business of religion at all and most are probably not even aware that there is a word for their lack of belief. For those atheists who get involved in the conversation, it's more like an additional thing they do, like a hobby or peripheral activity.

     

    +1.  When I first apostsized I was really into the atheist movement but now I've lost interest in it.

    I don't even like the word atheist. That's why I just say I'm not religious when questioned about it. 

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #15 - May 15, 2014, 08:19 PM

    I’ll apologize in advance for not properly using the quote feature. I’m writing on the go but I want to get these thoughts down.

    @Luthiel. Yes. The idea that I have is not that atheism is a religion; it is that atheism has evolved from religion and keeps the idea itself “alive” in a way. In the same way that human beings are not fish, atheism is not a religion. The last sentence of your post is essential. I think that atheism simply does not have the features that religions have that allow them to survive as a parasite. Hopefully, atheism is religion’s dying breath before it becomes completely irrelevant.

    @Ishina Thanks for commenting. I was really looking forward to your response. Given the amount of energy that we as atheist spend on the topic of atheism –books, discussions, websites, podcasts, forums, etc. –do you disagree that the idea of religion is still managing to occupy a significant portion of our minds’ real estate? This is what I mean. The idea does not simply die and fizzle away into non-existence. It morphs into something else. (Unlike things we never think about, like the lack of trolls on Saturn’s rings as in the example I cited above.)

    @TDR He is a salafi and a professor of sociology.
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #16 - May 15, 2014, 08:25 PM

    Quote
    @TDR He is a salafi and a professor of sociology

     

    You've got to be kidding me   wacko  Huh?  wacko  Huh?

    How can someone go about and give lectures on socioligy and the go around saying we should ban alcohol, men and women should not mix etc.

    I wish we had the technology where we can scan his brain and have the machine record down every thought that he is thinking.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #17 - May 15, 2014, 10:18 PM

    Anyone else care to weigh in here? I'm really interested in hearing your thoughts on the idea. If you are unfamiliar with the hypothesis of religion as a natural organism that evolves, please watch the video I posted above. (I strongly recommend watching it either way, actually.)

    Feel free to poke holes in the idea. Let's discuss.
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #18 - May 15, 2014, 10:49 PM

    Yes, it's a truly fascinating topic once you start to delve in, and that's before I've <holds hand up and admits> had a chance to look at the video. I only wish I had more time to get into it, it's the type of theory that could carry me away in all sorts of directions and for some reason it's got me thinking about another idea that's been floated, about the gene or genetic material being the important 'stuff' to live on and us 'the body' just being useful canisters to ensure it's survival as it's passed down from one generation to the next. That then gets me thinking how might these two theories get along, contradict each other or more likely work at some level? Thinking hard
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #19 - May 15, 2014, 11:12 PM

    Given the amount of energy that we as atheist spend on the topic of atheism –books, discussions, websites, podcasts, forums, etc. –do you disagree that the idea of religion is still managing to occupy a significant portion of our minds’ real estate?

    It seems to me that atheism is a displacement of religion rather than an evolution of religion. For me, atheism is movement towards pristine knowledge, or rather, an accumulation of data, learning, understanding, converging upon what is true, and the process of disabusing myself of what is not true. The lazy non-explanation of godstuff was gradually replaced with information about the universe. God is a placeholder.

    There's no room in my head now for the set of beliefs that comprises a religion. They no longer function in my model of reality. They are not correct. Nor is there time in my day to spend actually being religious. My atheism is not carried like a religion would be. I am instead carrying the accumulation of learning that displaced it. I have a model of understanding and gods do not feature amongst the things it is built of. Gods do not have any value in the formula of my worldview. Gods do not make any sense to me. They are incoherent concepts, poorly and lazily argued, not well defined, holding no explanatory power. Useless and irrelevant. Tiny and boring.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #20 - May 15, 2014, 11:23 PM

    I'm also leaning toward Theological noncognitivism these days. Other times I feel like an apatheist, I just don't give a fuck about discussing "faith".

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #21 - May 15, 2014, 11:27 PM

    Yes. I get what you both are saying. I completely relate with the feelings of apathy and the fact that gods no longer feature in our world views. Yet here we are discussing religion.
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #22 - May 15, 2014, 11:31 PM

    I think that a distinction between actively seeking to discuss religion and inadvertently talking about theology needs to be drawn.  Talking about religion doesn't entail the acceptance of it.  I.e. Disinterest in disbelief/belief doesn't disqualify you from examining religion.
    We all know how religion encroaches upon society so a burying our heads in the sand policy is awkward.
    Even though "pragmatic atheism" is just a label, I still have the odd urge to research religion.

    Anyways, I'm going to sleep now - I've had about 15 hours sleep for the whole week.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #23 - May 15, 2014, 11:36 PM

    Yes. I get what you both are saying. I completely relate with the feelings of apathy and the fact that gods no longer feature in our world views. Yet here we are discussing religion.

    Sure, but a few moments of disposable chat does not a religion make. There are other things that need to be present and active in order for us to be doing religion or doing something like religion.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #24 - May 15, 2014, 11:49 PM

    We only discuss religion for the same reason we discuss politics. Just like political ideologies, religous ideologies affect the world around us.


    And alot of us are in the closet so the the only reason I come on here is to express my views so they are not bottled up inside of me.


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #25 - May 15, 2014, 11:53 PM

    Sure, but a few moments of disposable chat does not a religion make. There are other things that need to be present and active in order for us to be doing religion or doing something like religion.

    For sure. But I am by no means suggesting that atheism is a religion. I'm saying that the obvious implication that atheism exists as a result of religion might represent the next evolutionary step of the religious mind parasite.

    I'm not sure I've been making myself clear. My apologies if that is the case.I am proposing that atheism is the latest, and perhaps the last, step of the evolution of the religious parasite. The extinction of religion completely will be represented by a lack of a need for active, promoted, or acknowledged atheism. Until then, a descendant of the virus of the idea of religion lives on in us in the form of atheism. That idea will still cause us to do things like congregate here to discuss and promote it.
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #26 - May 16, 2014, 12:01 AM

    We only discuss religion for the same reason we discuss politics. Just like political ideologies, religous ideologies affect the world around us.


    And alot of us are in the closet so the the only reason I come on here is to express my views so they are not bottled up inside of me.



     Yes TDR. Politics is also an example of an idea that controls us. It developed in our ancestors as a result of their survival instincts and has evolved and spread since then. Communism is referenced in the video above.
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #27 - May 16, 2014, 12:04 AM

    I guess it depends on the atheist. The main reason I talk about religion is because I am full of myself and enjoy the sport of outsmarting people. Religious people are a source of amusement to me. I get satisfaction from trampling on their beliefs, or just mocking religion in general. I like to refine my arguments and think about new ways of trashing religion so that I can use them when the subject comes up.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #28 - May 16, 2014, 12:07 AM

    atheism is movement towards pristine knowledge

    Or pristine emptiness. Facing the void without fear.
  • The Religious Mind Parasite
     Reply #29 - May 16, 2014, 12:18 AM

    Ommmmmmmmm.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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