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Theme Changer

 Topic: Muhammad

 (Read 6678 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Muhammad
     OP - May 23, 2014, 04:33 PM

    I had a personal conversation with Yezevee and decided to open this thread. He and others can join here. I am curious to know-

    1. Is the Muhammad of Quran and Ahadith different?
    2. What made changes in his personality later in his life?
    3. Does 'Understanding Muhammad' by Ali Sina contain answers for it?
    4. Is the claim that the Muhammad of the Ahadith were several people?

     thnkyu.
  • Muhammad
     Reply #1 - May 23, 2014, 05:49 PM

    There are people here who can answer these questions better than myself. As for number 3 though, I can quite certainly say NO.
  • Muhammad
     Reply #2 - May 23, 2014, 06:04 PM

    1, Muhammad is barely mentioned in the Quran so it is hard to make a comparison. But if the Quran was really authored by him then the Quran is sort of a journey inside his mind, whereas the hadiths are more what his companions thought of him. Does that make sense?

    2, Well if we believe the traditional biography, then the obvious answer would be power. Later in his life, he had the power to marry any women he wanted, to condemn anyone to death, and to invade the land of any other tribe. However it is also possible that the early part of his life was simply made up by hagiographers to justify the actions of his later life and to make a closer comparison with Jesus as the early Muslim community came into closer contact with Christians (i.e. the story of a pacifist underdog and a small religious community persecuted by Pagans).

    3, Never read it.

    4, Yes that is possible. "Muhammad" simply means "praised". Perhaps a number of tribes had their own "praised one".
  • Muhammad
     Reply #3 - May 26, 2014, 05:35 PM

    I had a personal conversation with Yezevee and decided to open this thread. He and others can join here. I am curious to know-

    1. Is the Muhammad of Quran and Ahadith different?
    2. What made changes in his personality later in his life?
    3. Does 'Understanding Muhammad' by Ali Sina contain answers for it?
    4. Is the claim that the Muhammad of the Ahadith were several people?

     thnkyu.


    Q1. Is the Muhammad of Quran and Ahadith different?

    There is a little doubt on that., Indeed Muhammad of Quran is different from Muhammad of Hadith., If we carefully look in to Quran, there are only four verses that name "Muhammad" mentioned in it.  Let us read those verses along with their context  and  where & when those alleged verses were revealed..

    ]quote] Surah AL-E-IMRAN., vese 144

    YUSUFALI: Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.

    PICKTHAL: Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful.

    SHAKIR: And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels!s, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.

    Quote
    Surah AL-AHZAB.,  verse 040

    YUSUFALI: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

    PICKTHAL: Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.

    SHAKIR: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.

    Surah MUHAMMAD., Verse.002

    YUSUFALI: But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.

    PICKTHAL: And those who believe and do good works and believe in that which is revealed unto Muhammad - and it is the truth from their Lord - He riddeth them of their ill-deeds and improveth their state.

    SHAKIR: And (as for) those who believe and do good, and believe in what has been revealed to Muhammad, and it is the very truth from their Lord, He will remove their evil from them and improve their condition.

    Surah AL-FATH., verse 029:

    048.029

    YUSUFALI:  Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

    PICKTHAL:
    Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. Thou (O Muhammad) seest them bowing and falling prostrate (in worship), seeking bounty from Allah and (His) acceptance. The mark of them is on their foreheads from the traces of prostration. Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel - like as sown corn that sendeth forth its shoot and strengtheneth it and riseth firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers - that He may enrage the disbelievers with (the sight of) them. Allah hath promised, unto such of them as believe and do good works, forgiveness and immense reward.

    SHAKIR: Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward.


    The other alleged name " Ahmad" that is mentioned in Quran is from Surah AS-SAFF Verse.006.,

    Quote
    YUSUFALI: And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

    PICKTHAL: And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One. Yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere magic.

    SHAKIR: And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the messenger of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Messenger who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic.


    Well that is what we have in Quran.,  Now we have to look in to when and why such verses were allegedly reveled to Prophet of Islam and most importantly who wrote them down?

    Q2. What made changes in his personality later in his life?

    Well there could be multiple answers for that question., simplest being "Power corrupts and aboslute power corrupts absolutely"

    2nd being., The man was nuts and he was in and out of his mind...

    3is there were multiple Muhammads in Islam., The initial one being just sing songs around Mecca ..  

    3. Does 'Understanding Muhammad' by Ali Sina contain answers for it?

    Who knows allah knows the best  Tongue.,  Some of it could be right  and most of that book is clearly  written using hadith as the source of Muhammad character

    4. Is the claim that the Muhammad of the Ahadith were several people?

    That possibility is there in the sense ., most of these silly hadith were written way after the death f alleged Muhammad and on top of it "any story from war  lord of early Islam such as Omar's story  could have been added in to this   I SAY, YOU SAY, WHO SAID hadith"

    Well this is such an important subject before I write something let me add some links here..

    Islamic Theologian's Theory: It's Likely the Prophet Muhammad  Never Existed

    Islam: No historical mention of a ‘prophet’ called Muhammad up to 732 A.D. Was he a Caliph?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Muhammad
     Reply #4 - June 22, 2014, 10:57 AM

    So Rubaya  question is important in the sense she is asking about historicity/existence of Muhammad with reference to Islam..   So on that early confused story of Islam, M.A.Hussain wrote a wonderful article which I kind of like its tone .. let me add that link a bit of spicy nugget here

    Quote
    Is Islam a failed Jewish Conspiracy?

    "Islam is the result of a failed conspiracy of Jews of Medina against Mecca pagans. Jews helped Mohammad; they served him as scribes, helped him to understand Judaism and Christian traditions, and supported him in his struggle against Meccan pagans to strengthen monotheism. Had they opposed him and confronted him from the very beginning in Medina, Mohammad would not have been able to establish Muslim community.  "


    Actually that sounds right to me.. All these " Ibn guys' of Muhammad's came out of Jewish sect of Arabia., Those converted Jewish folks may have put together this book Quran and all those hadith books 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Muhammad
     Reply #5 - June 22, 2014, 12:08 PM

    But I thought that the Jewish were one of the greatest enemies of Muhammad after the Meccan pagans?
  • Muhammad
     Reply #6 - June 22, 2014, 12:47 PM

    But I thought that the Jewish were one of the greatest enemies of Muhammad after the Meccan pagans?


    Did this come after the perception of Pagans as enemies? It might have been because people didn't like the direction things were going in, publicly disagreed meaning that the relationship turned sour with those not agreeing to follow Muhammad becoming the enemy and those that did agree to follow Muhammad becoming Muslims ergo not Jewish any more.

    Is this right?
  • Muhammad
     Reply #7 - June 22, 2014, 01:05 PM

    I am saying this from one of the biographies of Muhammad. Of course I think Muhammad should have let them stick with their faith instead of attacking and conquering them. They didn't believe in him because he didn't match the criteria of prophets and failed a test as written in the Bible for that purpose.

    As for meeting the Jews I think it happened after emigration to Medina.
  • Muhammad
     Reply #8 - June 22, 2014, 01:50 PM

    But I thought that the Jewish were one of the greatest enemies of Muhammad after the Meccan pagans?

    Question here is., which Jewish sect and what  year did so-called Muhammad said/did that they were his greatest enemies?  again this is what we have on Muhammad life story

    571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. 
    577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
    580: Death of Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet.
    583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
    586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
    591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
    594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
    595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija.
    605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.
    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
    613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.
    614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
    620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
    621: First pledge at Aqaba.
    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet

    so what year of his life did Muhammad  felt that Jews were his enemies ?

    Quote
    http://www.christianorigins.com/islamrefs.html

    (Doctrina Jacobi V.16, 209. [p. 57]

    When the candidatus was killed by the Saracens, I was at Caesarea and I set off by boat to Sykamina. People were saying "the candidatus has been killed," and we Jews were overjoyed. (1) And they were saying that the prophet had appeared, coming with the Saracens, and that he was proclaiming the advent of the anointed one, the Christ who was to come.

    (2)I, having arrived at Sykamina, stopped by a certain old man well-versed in scriptures, and I said to him: "What can you tell me about the prophet who has appeared with the Saracens?" (3) He replied, groaning deeply: "He is false, for the prophets do not come armed with a sword. Truly they are works of anarchy being committed today and I fear that the first Christ to come, whom the Christians worship, was the one sent by God and we instead are preparing to receive the Antichrist. 

    Indeed, Isaiah said that the Jews would retain a perverted and hardened heart until all the earth should be devastated. But you go, master Abraham, and find out about the prophet who has appeared." (4) So I, Abraham, inquired and heard from those who had met him that there was no truth to be found in the so-called prophet, only the shedding of men's blood. He says also that he has the keys of paradise, which is incredible (5).

    Hmm... Jews were overjoyed because of what Prophet did.... off course that Doctrina Jacobi (July 634) was apparently published in the year 634..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Muhammad
     Reply #9 - June 22, 2014, 01:56 PM

    Question here is., which Jewish sect and what  year did so-called Muhammad said/did that they were his greatest enemies?  again this is what we have on Muhammad life story

    571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. 
    577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
    580: Death of Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet.
    583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
    586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
    591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
    594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
    595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija.
    605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.
    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
    613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.
    614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
    620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
    621: First pledge at Aqaba.
    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet

    so what year of his life did Muhammad  felt that Jews were his enemies ?
    Hmm... Jews were overjoyed because of what Prophet did.... off course that Doctrina Jacobi (July 634) was apparently published in the year 634..


    Are you suggesting the hatred of the Jews was put into the qu'ran after Mo died (or whoever it was) or that Mo (or whoever) died after 634?
  • Muhammad
     Reply #10 - June 22, 2014, 02:02 PM

    Are you suggesting the hatred of the Jews was put into the qu'ran after Mo died (or whoever it was) or that Mo (or whoever) died after 634?

     Off course.. There is little doubt on that..

    Lots of nonsense is added in the name of "Muhammad" .. they( the writers of those books) did it to Quran and did it to hadith..   We must realize that both of these so-called Scriptures of Islam were  put together way after the death of so-called  alleged Muhammad..

    Frankly there appears to be many Muhammads in early Islam.   Clearly there was a guy who was singing songs around and questioning Christians  of Arabia on that "Christ is son of God" problem..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Muhammad
     Reply #11 - June 22, 2014, 02:06 PM

    I think that too, was just clarifying what you were implying for the common folk. Trying to translate Yeez language into English.
  • Muhammad
     Reply #12 - June 22, 2014, 02:07 PM

    ..........Trying to translate Yeez language into English............

    Damn you Lilyesque..

    "May allah give you jannah all the time in this life and after this life" ..  Cheesy Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Muhammad
     Reply #13 - June 22, 2014, 02:10 PM

    Damn you Lilyesque..

    "May allah give you jannah all the time in this life and after this life" ..  Cheesy Cheesy


    Insh'Allah, Mash'Allah, Wa'laikum Islam (Salam)!
  • Muhammad
     Reply #14 - June 23, 2014, 07:11 AM

    So the Jews were overjoyed at his arrival Shocked? I am surprised. But then does any historical source say that they became allies of Muhammad? As I have said before they might have come to hate him later because he didn't fulfill the Bible's prophecies.
  • Muhammad
     Reply #15 - June 24, 2014, 12:32 AM

    Several historical sources say that Mohammed was allied with the Jews.  The first clear identification of Mohammed in any source, Muslim or non-Muslim, is by the Armenian Sebeos, and he claims that Mohammed led a huge coalition of Jews and Arabs to attack Jerusalem.  This was written around 662 AD or so, approximately 30 years after Mohammed's death:

    "At that time a certain man from along those same sons of Ismael, whose name was Mahmet [i.e., Mụhammad], a merchant, as if by God's command appeared to them as a preacher [and] the path of truth. He taught them to recognize the God of Abraham, especially because he was learnt and informed in the history of Moses. Now because the command was from on high, at a single order they all came together in unity of religion. Abandoning their vain cults, they turned to the living God who had appeared to their father Abraham. So, Mahmet legislated for them: not to eat carrion, not to drink wine, not to speak falsely, and not to engage in fornication. He said: 'With an oath God promised this land to Abraham and his seed after him for ever. And he brought about as he promised during that time while he loved Ismael. But now you are the sons of Abraham and God is accomplishing his promise to Abraham and his seed for you. Love sincerely only the God of Abraham, and go and seize the land which God gave to your father Abraham. No one will be able to resist you in battle, because God is with you.  ... Then they all gathered together from Havila unto Shur and before Egypt; they came out of the desert of Pharan divided into twelve tribes according to the lineages of their patriarchs.  They distributed among their tribes the twelve thousand Israelites, a thousand per tribe, to guide them into the land of Israel . . . All that remained of the peoples of the children of Israel came to join them, and the constituted a mighty army."

    In addition, the so-called Charter of Medina is thought to be one of the more antiquated pieces of Islamic history, with a lot of of archaic features, and rather clearly refers to a joint military alliance between the "Believers" and the Jews.  You can easily look it up online in various translations.

    As we have it, the Charter of Medina clearly has been tampered with and fabricated in several respects, and seems to be cobbled together from at least two previous versions (hence the repetition).  I also think the insertion of the name "Mohammed" was probably among the later alterations to the text, which we only know through much later Islamic hagiography (it appears in Ibn Ishaq's sirah, for example).  So we don't have it in its original form.  But it preserves certain features that are consistent with the early non-Islamic sources, and inconsistent with later Islamic tradition.  For those reasons, and linguistic reasons, scholars like Fred Donner consider it to be one of the few historically significant texts from later Islam bearing on theses issues.
  • Muhammad
     Reply #16 - June 24, 2014, 12:38 AM

    Tom Holland did suggest that Islam came not from the Arabian peninsular but from further north due to the description of the area in the Qu'ran didn't he?
  • Muhammad
     Reply #17 - June 25, 2014, 09:09 AM

    Let me put this  Peter Kirby   link  on this subject External References to Islam    (September 11, 2003).  So this from
    Several historical sources say that Mohammed was allied with the Jews.  The first clear identification of Mohammed in any source, Muslim or non-Muslim, is by the Armenian Sebeos, and he claims that Mohammed led a huge coalition of Jews and Arabs to attack Jerusalem.  This was written around 662 AD or so, approximately 30 years after Mohammed's death:

    There are problems with Armenian Sebeos and the translation of his work..,  That statement above itself is a problem. There is NOT a single word "Jerusalem." in Quran ., Muhammad and that place Jerusalem. being such a prominent place of that time., Why it is NOT mentioned in Quran?  Did This Arabian Muhammad of present Islam  really travel to  Jerusalem and attack that city?  Quran only talks about attacking Qureshi Pagans...  So something has to be fishy here...

    Just curious here, Zaotar  do you also write in to /member of that  http://free-minds.org/forum/  ?  Anyways let us put that  whole Sebeos' History in English here..

    Quote
    Sebeos' History _Translator's Preface

    Sebeos' History is a seventh century document of special importance for the study of Armenia and the Middle East in the sixth-seventh centuries. It was during this period, when Iran and Byzantium were wrestling for control of the Armenian highlands, that Armenian culture became more individual, independent, and distinctively national. While Sebeos focuses his attention primarily on Armenia's lay and clerical naxarars (lords), he also provides extensive and valuable information on events taking place in the neighboring societies of Byzantium, Iran, and among the Arabs.

    Byzantinists will find factual and anecdotal information on the reigns of emperors Maurice (582-602), Theodosius (co-emperor, 590-602), Phocas (602-610), Heraclius I (610-41) and his successors to Constans II (641-68), including their wars against Iran in the east and the Goths in the west. Iranists will find information on officials such as the hamaharz, pustipan, marzpan, ostikan, Asparapet, patgospan, and hamarakar; and a wealth of information on the reigns of shahs Peroz (459-84), Valas (484-88), Kawad I (488-96; 498-531), Xosrov I Anushirvan (531-79), Hormizd IV (579-90), Xosrov II Aparvez (590; 591-628), Kawad II Sheroe (628), Artashir (628-29), queen Boran (630-31), and Yazdigerd III (632-51). Sebeos' account of the rebellion of Vahram Choben and his description of the last days of the Sasanian dynasty have the authenticity of a contemporary. In addition, Sebeos narrates the birth and rise of Islam and provides unusual information on Jewish nationalism, the Khazars of the north Caucasus, and the Kushans on Iran's northeastern border.

    Regrettably, aside from canonical and hagiographical literature and a few inscriptions, there are no other Armenian historical sources for the period of the sixth-seventh centuries. As such, Sebeos' information on Armenia and the Armenians has particular importance. His account begins where the fifth century Ghazar P'arpets'i's History left off—with the rebellion of Vahan Mamikonean in the 480s. Unfortunately, the account then skips the early and middle parts of the sixth century, picking up again with the rebellion of Vardan II Mamikonean (572) against Iran. Sebeos describes the separatist activities of the district of Siwnik' in eastern historical Armenia; Vahram Choben's efforts to enlist the aid of Mushegh Mamikonean, and Mushegh's role in Vahram's defeat; the alleged plan of the emperor Maurice and shah Xosrov to depopulate Armenia, and the rebellions this engendered. He especially concentrates on the reign of Maurice (582-602), who was perhaps of Armenian descent and had a peculiar antipathy toward the Armenians. The late sixth and early seventh centuries were a period when the Armenian naxarars were strong and independent and prone to switching allegiance from Byzantium to Iran, or vice versa. Sebeos describes the careers of several such prominent lords as Smbat Bagratuni, his son Varaztirots', T'eodos Xorxoruni and others, some of whom became important officials in the two rival empires. As a cleric, Sebeos was particularly interested in religious matters. He describes the activity of Armenian kat' oghikoi; Byzantine attempts to force Chalcedonianism on the Armenians; Iranian attempts to force Zoroastrianism on the Armenians; Chrlstianity in Iran; and the spread of Islam.

    The present translation, which was completed in 1979, was made from the classical Armenian edition of K. Patkanean [Patmut'iwn Sebeosi episkoposi i Herakln (St. Petersburg, 1879)]. Patkanean based his text on the earlier edition of T. Mihrdatian (Constantinople, 1851) and a manuscript at the Imperial Academy in St. Petersburg. Mihrdatian in turn had based his edition on an anonymous manuscript found in the library of Ejmiatsin in 1842 by bishop Yovhannes Shahxat'unian. There is extensive controversy about many aspects of the manuscript tradition. None of the full extant manuscripts of Sebeos predates the seventeenth century. Apparently, the now-lost text of Shahxat'unian bore neither an author nor a title. Shahxat'unian himself determined that the work must be the history alluded to by later medieval historians as Sebeos' history. Consequently, with no positive identification, the work was published as Bishop Sebeos' History of Heraclius despite the fact that it is much more than the history of Heraclius. Apparently, Shahxat'unian and/or Mihrdatian divided the text into sections and chapters and prefaced them with summaries (which were not in the original manuscript).

    Another controversy surrounds an earlier work appended to all extant manuscripts of this seventh century history, which has come to be known as the Primary History of Armenia [for an English translation and discussion see R. Thomson, Moses Khorenats'i's History of the Armenians (Cambridge, Mass., 1978) Appendix pp. 357-68; our translation of the Primary History is available elsewhere on this site]. Few Armenists today regard the Primary History and "Sebeos" as the work of the same author. Who Sebeos was, and if he really was the author of this history are presently unanswerable questions [see G. Bournoutian, "Sebeos: A Historical Controversy", Armenian Review (Summer, 1975) pp. 138-46 ] There is nothing particularly distinctive about Sebeos' style—the Armenian is direct and (usually) straightforward. All that is clear from the author's biases is that he was a patriotic historian, not unswervingly loyal to any one House, and a fervent defender of the independence of the Armenian Church.

    In 1979, G.V. Abgaryan published a critical edition of Sebeos (Erevan, 1979), which includes the Primary History, and is based on numerous manuscripts and fragments. While Abgaryan's text may be more readable than Patkanean's, the editor's freedom in rearranging passages and completely renumbering the chapters makes it difficult to use as a companion to the scholarly writings on Sebeos by more than a century of prominent Armenists. Nonetheless, the Abgaryan edition has extensive annotation, some of which is referenced in the notes to the present translation. An extensive bibliography for the era of Sebeos and subsequent periods in Caucasian history is available in C. Toumanoff's article, "Armenia and Georgia," [Chapter XIV in The Cambridge Medieval History, vol. IV, The Byzantine Empire, part I, (Cambridge, 1966), pp. 593-637].

    The transliteration used here is a modification of the new Library of Congress system for Armenian, substituting x for the LOC's kh, for the thirteenth character of the Armenian alphabet (խ). Otherwise we follow the LOC transliteration, which eliminates diacritical marks above or below a character, and substitutes single or double quotation marks to the character's right. In the LOC romanization, the seventh character of the alphabet (է) appears as e', the eighth (ը) as e", the twenty-eighth (ռ) as r', and the thirty-eighth (o), as o'.


    Robert Bedrosian
    (New York, 1985)

    W.r.t that  early history There are serious problems with that Armenian Stuff.   Although they give these dates that do coincide with early Islam but  I am not sure how accurately it is describing  the "Muhammad" story  of that time. Please read through that link .. It is some sort of   a book with some 38 chapters







    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Muhammad
     Reply #18 - June 25, 2014, 08:17 PM

    Sure, there are serious problems with all these sources, starting with their paucity.  No doubt.  Part of the problem is that, in my view at least, the Qur'an was likely somewhat "whitewashed" during its compilation and scribal editing to make its references exceptionally vague, using pronouns and descriptions rather than names.  This is why so few contemporary figures are named, which is rather amazing, so why would one expect contemporary cities like Jerusalem to be explicitly named much either?  Even the messenger himself doesn't really get a name in the Qur'an; he's either nabi or rasul, and nobody seems very sure what his name actually is until later.

    At the time Sebeos was writing, there was not anything resembling a determinate Islam, nor even a Qur'an as we know it.  It's only around 685 (with Abd al Malik) that you start seeing Qur'anic inscriptions, so how would an Armenian chronicler writing two decades before then be expected to know what the modern Qur'an says when recounting this history?  The earliest Qur'anic texts start appearing around that time as well; there must have been SOME prior written texts that the Qur'an as we know it was assembled from (certainly even the traditional Muslim narrative argues this), but they were probably very limited in distribution and influence.  Certainly nobody (Muslim or non) seems to have ever heard about such Qur'anic texts, cited them, or quoted them in inscriptions or engravings prior to Abd al Malik.  What became the Qur'an and prevailing oral history narratives (and written non-Muslim records) were on separate tracks.

    At best Sebeos could only give an account of what people in the region were circulating as stories about an Arab prophet and what he allegedly did back in the day.  The lack of clear contemporary evidence made that process of forming later narratives relatively unconstrained.

    I'm not a member of that other forum, and I'm new to this forum.  I'm just a lawyer who studied comparative law extensively in law school, and as part of that developed an interest in ancient law and society, including Shariah and its emergence and development.  As a result, I've developed a great interest in scholarship on Islam's emergence, which I find extremely fascinating.
  • Muhammad
     Reply #19 - June 25, 2014, 08:28 PM

    Sure, there are serious problems with all these sources, starting with their paucity.  No doubt.  Part of the problem is that, in my view at least, the Qur'an was likely somewhat "whitewashed" during its compilation and scribal editing to make its references exceptionally vague, using pronouns and descriptions rather than names.  This is why so few contemporary figures are named, which is rather amazing, so why would one expect contemporary cities like Jerusalem to be explicitly named much either?  Even the messenger himself doesn't really get a name in the Qur'an; he's either nabi or rasul, and nobody seems very sure what his name actually is until later.

    At the time Sebeos was writing, there was not anything resembling a determinate Islam, nor even a Qur'an as we know it.  It's only around 685 (with Abd al Malik) that you start seeing Qur'anic inscriptions, so how would an Armenian chronicler writing two decades before then be expected to know what the modern Qur'an says when recounting this history?  The earliest Qur'anic texts start appearing around that time as well; there must have been SOME prior written texts that the Qur'an as we know it was assembled from (certainly even the traditional Muslim narrative argues this), but they were probably very limited in distribution and influence.  Certainly nobody (Muslim or non) seems to have ever heard about such Qur'anic texts, cited them, or quoted them in inscriptions or engravings prior to Abd al Malik.  What became the Qur'an and prevailing oral history narratives (and written non-Muslim records) were on separate tracks.

    At best Sebeos could only give an account of what people in the region were circulating as stories about an Arab prophet and what he allegedly did back in the day.  The lack of clear contemporary evidence made that process of forming later narratives relatively unconstrained.

    I'm not a member of that other forum, and I'm new to this forum.  I'm just a lawyer who studied comparative law extensively in law school, and as part of that developed an interest in ancient law and society, including Shariah and its emergence and development.  As a result, I've developed a great interest in scholarship on Islam's emergence, which I find extremely fascinating.


    Interesting. You sound like an interesting person. Will be interesting to see if you can flesh anything else out or provide new perspectives on issues in the future.
  • Muhammad
     Reply #20 - June 25, 2014, 08:46 PM

    ..............I'm not a member of that other forum, and I'm new to this forum.  I'm just a lawyer who studied comparative law extensively in law school, and as part of that developed an interest in ancient law and society, including Shariah and its emergence and development.  As a result, I've developed a great interest in scholarship on Islam's emergence, which I find extremely fascinating.

    oh I see., I am so glad to read your thoughts on this subject dear Zaotar.  I wonder about the link of your earlier post on early Islam., was it from this book?  or from this link at http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/earlysaw.html

    and again welcome to CEMB..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Muhammad
     Reply #21 - June 25, 2014, 11:25 PM

    I actually got part of that quote from the Islamic Awareness website (obviously a great website for these things), but then I knew Sebeos went on to discuss the invasion (which the partial quote did not include), so I briefly googled it and found an article about Sebeos by some academic and cut and pasted the rest of the quote from it.  I'm not sure what translation he used.

    I definitely agree with the difficulty of translation, which is exacerbated by the fact that translators often anachronistically translate the non-Muslim sources by using later Islamic terms that are not present in the original text.  Thus you will find people called "Muslims" in translations when actually the text says "emigrants/hagarenes/saracens/believers" etc. ... context specific historical terms that are retroactively treated by the modern English translator as synonymous with "Muslim," when they are not.

    But I'm not aware of the Sebeos quote being mistranslated in that manner.  It's clear that what Sebeos gives as a narrative is not the historical truth (a vast Jewish/Arab army besieging Jerusalem ... that cannot have ever happened), but then again what Islamic tradition later argued was not the historical truth either.  What's important about Sebeos is that he gives what seems to have been a prevailing regional narrative in his time, much earlier than the Muslim sources, about who Muhammad was and what he did.  I personally suspect that the base Qur'an as we know it ... in its 'Uthmanic' form including most of the initial surahs .... was first assembled after Sebeos was writing, but assembled from pre-existing texts.  Even after that happened, the figure of Muhammad did not have tremendous authority or significance ... invoking him was more a way to legitimate the Umayyad caliphate and imbue it with religious authority.

    The Muhammad of the hadith, on the other hand, was primarily a creation of later needs of the emergent Muslim community, principally legal but also exegetical and political.

    So there are many Muhammads reflecting several different historical sources -- the Qur'an, the non-Muslim 7th century sources, the Umayyad caliphate, and then open Islam.  Only the first and second, in my opinion, have much argument for authentic information regarding a historical figure, although they are also heavily distorted in many respects.
  • Muhammad
     Reply #22 - June 26, 2014, 12:02 AM

    No intro thread Zaotar?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Muhammad
     Reply #23 - June 26, 2014, 08:23 AM

    .............
    I definitely agree with the difficulty of translation, which is exacerbated by the fact that translators often anachronistically translate the non-Muslim sources by using later Islamic terms that are not present in the original text. Thus you will find people called "Muslims" in translations when actually the text says "emigrants/hagarenes/saracens/believers" etc. ... context specific historical terms that are retroactively treated by the modern English translator as synonymous with "Muslim," when they are not.

    That is indeed a serious problem in analyzing early history of Islam from Non-Muslim sources., Often these sources are Christian priests and are biased.
    Quote
    But I'm not aware of the Sebeos quote being mistranslated in that manner.  It's clear that what Sebeos gives as a narrative is not the historical truth (a vast Jewish/Arab army besieging Jerusalem ... that cannot have ever happened), but then again what Islamic tradition later argued was not the historical truth either.  

    So the question here is which sources depicts the true story of Islam ., Islamic sources or Non-Islamic sources?  and how do we filter these sources  to extract the facts?
    Quote
    What's important about Sebeos is that he gives what seems to have been a prevailing regional narrative in his time, much earlier than the Muslim sources, about who Muhammad was and what he did.

    That I am not sure for the simple reason Sebeos depiction of Muhammad  and who Muhammad  was.,   comes from very small story of Muhammad's life after he allegedly moved to so-called town Yathrib,  the present town Madina .

     Now do we have any Non-Islamic sources of what Muhammad was in the first 12 years of Islam that is,  so-called Meccan Period.??
    Quote
    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
    613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.
    614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
    615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
    616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
    617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
    620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
    621: First pledge at Aqaba.

    621-622; Prophet Migrates to Madina
    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.

    That is 12 years of Islam.. lot of Islam there.,   Someone(Non-Muslims)  should have written something on it..
    Quote
    I personally suspect that the base Qur'an as we know it ... in its 'Uthmanic' form including most of the initial surahs .... was first assembled after Sebeos was writing, but assembled from pre-existing texts.  Even after that happened, the figure of Muhammad did not have tremendous authority or significance ... invoking him was more a way to legitimate the Umayyad caliphate and imbue it with religious authority.

    Oh! agree with that., Many of these Caliphs and other rules of early Islam and even the present Islam,  all use the name of "Muhammad" and his alleged saying for the purpose power grabbing.    But what actually do you mean by initial surahs of Quran?  and what are they??
    Quote
    The Muhammad of the hadith, on the other hand, was primarily a creation of later needs of the emergent Muslim community, principally legal but also exegetical and political.

    So you reject Hadith completely  and you think does not represent original Muhammad.. Correct me if I am wrong.
    Quote
    So there are many Muhammads reflecting several different historical sources -- the Qur'an, the non-Muslim 7th century sources, the Umayyad caliphate, and then open Islam.  Only the first and second, in my opinion, have much argument for authentic information regarding a historical figure, although they are also heavily distorted in many respects.

    So you agree with "Many Muhammads"   hypothesis??  You could be right for the following reasons

    1). If  hadith and even Quran  are heavily distorted after the demise Muhammad(Muhammads)  and the word "Muhammad" means "A Praised one" or a leader ., So it could have been used to any guy of that time.,

    2). It appears to be true that Quran is published as book way after  after his alleged death.,  then it is  possible that present Muhammad of Islam is actually "combination of Characters that may be real or stories in the name of Muhammad? "  

    would you agree with that?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Muhammad
     Reply #24 - June 26, 2014, 03:10 PM

    Sebeos' History Translated from Classical Armenian  by Robert Bedrosian

    The birth of Muhammad and the entrance of the sons of Ishmael into the land of Armenia. The death of Heraclius and the reign of Constantine.

    Regarding the Jews and their wicked plans.

    The other chapters of that translated book from chapter 33 to 38 allegedly supposed to tell the story on the history of Islam during Muhammad time and some 10/15 years after that..  But I say there is little or nothing on Muhammad in it..  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Muhammad
     Reply #25 - June 26, 2014, 04:58 PM

    My views on Muhammad are largely similar to those that Shoemaker sets forth in his book, "The Death of a Prophet."  I have a similar view on the veracity of our source information, the utility of the Qur'an, and the unreliability of the later tradition, although Shoemaker is more sanguine than I am about the possibility of gleaning authentic information from hadiths.

    Generally I think hadiths are utterly useless for gleaning any historical information whatsoever going back to the time of the prophet himself.  They are only useful for learning what later believers thought about the prophet. 

    I don't believe in "many Muhammads" in the sense of claiming there were multiple historical figures that got conflated (although I think in a narrow sense that is true -- some of the Qur'an undoubtedly consists of material that did not originate with Muhammad and was instead general monotheistic polemic and slogans that different preachers were circulating in the region).  I just mean to say that each source of information contains its own fabrication element, and in the case of the hadith/sirah, it is virtually all fabrication (and perhaps even more importantly but a slightly different point, there is almost no rational way to ferret out what is, and is not, fabricated -- isnads are worse than useless in my opinion).  For example, the 'Meccan' period I do not accept that we have any information on.  It's clear that there was some period during which the Arabs had less political power, but in which monotheistic ideas were circulating in the Arabic vernacular, largely derived from an Aramaic language intermediary.  The whole idea of jahiliyyah, pagan Mecca, etc. I think is nonsense.

    There are some hadith that are revealing of what the early followers of Muhammad believed however, and which have internal indications of archaism.  For example, hadith in which Muhammad claims that the apocalypse will come within 100 years of his death.  I do not for a moment believe Muhammad ever actually said that, but the nature of the prediction (looking forward to 732 as a cutoff) means that the hadith cannot have been created after 732.  It must be a fairly early hadith reflecting genuine apocalyptic expectations among the religious community.  This probably reflects the apocalyptic leanings of the prophet's early followers, something that multiple sources attest to.  So it's not that hadith are historically useless, they are just useless for the purposes that Muslim tradition invokes them.

    Sebeos is a similar example.  He does not give the 'historic truth' by any means, but he gives us a fairly detailed account of an early religious-historical narrative, which must have deviated in important ways from the historic truth, but probably deviated LESS in that regard than the later sources.

    I really do think that the Doctrina Jacobi is probably the most accurate historical source we are ever likely to get on Muhammad, although again it has its own biases.
  • Muhammad
     Reply #26 - June 26, 2014, 05:15 PM

    My views on Muhammad are largely similar to those that Shoemaker sets forth in his book, "The Death of a Prophet."  I have a similar view on the veracity of our source information, the utility of the Qur'an, and the unreliability of the later tradition, although Shoemaker is more sanguine than I am about the possibility of gleaning authentic information from hadiths.

    Generally I think hadiths are utterly useless for gleaning any historical information whatsoever going back to the time of the prophet himself.  They are only useful for learning what later believers thought about the prophet.

    I don't believe in "many Muhammads" in the sense of claiming there were multiple historical figures that got conflated (although I think in a narrow sense that is true -- some of the Qur'an undoubtedly consists of material that did not originate with Muhammad and was instead general monotheistic polemic and slogans that different preachers were circulating in the region).  I just mean to say that each source of information contains its own fabrication element, and in the case of the hadith/sirah, it is virtually all fabrication (and perhaps even more importantly but a slightly different point, there is almost no rational way to ferret out what is, and is not, fabricated -- isnads are worse than useless in my opinion).  For example, the 'Meccan' period I do not accept that we have any information on.  It's clear that there was some period during which the Arabs had less political power, but in which monotheistic ideas were circulating in the Arabic vernacular, largely derived from an Aramaic language intermediary.  The whole idea of jahiliyyah, pagan Mecca, etc. I think is nonsense.

    There are some hadith that are revealing of what the early followers of Muhammad believed however, and which have internal indications of archaism.  For example, hadith in which Muhammad claims that the apocalypse will come within 100 years of his death.  I do not for a moment believe Muhammad ever actually said that, but the nature of the prediction (looking forward to 732 as a cutoff) means that the hadith cannot have been created after 732.  It must be a fairly early hadith reflecting genuine apocalyptic expectations among the religious community.  This probably reflects the apocalyptic leanings of the prophet's early followers, something that multiple sources attest to.  So it's not that hadith are historically useless, they are just useless for the purposes that Muslim tradition invokes them.

    Sebeos is a similar example.  He does not give the 'historic truth' by any means, but he gives us a fairly detailed account of an early religious-historical narrative, which must have deviated in important ways from the historic truth, but probably deviated LESS in that regard than the later sources.

    I really do think that the Doctrina Jacobi is probably the most accurate historical source we are ever likely to get on Muhammad, although again it has its own biases.


    Do you also think that hadiths were created by those in charge in a way that what was written was what they wanted people to believe about Mohammed so they got their own way? So it says more about the establishment at the time in various places than Mohammed.
  • Muhammad
     Reply #27 - June 26, 2014, 05:43 PM

    ^ I do Lilyesque. I came to know about this viewpoint from a book named 'Conspiracies Against the Quran'. Currently, I can't give you the link but I will provide it later.
  • Muhammad
     Reply #28 - June 26, 2014, 05:46 PM

    ^ I do Lilyesque. I came to know about this viewpoint from a book named 'Conspiracies Against the Quran'. Currently, I can't give you the link but I will provide it later.


    Don't rush given your current predicament, thinking of you.
  • Muhammad
     Reply #29 - June 26, 2014, 06:55 PM

    Yes, I think it is very clear that the hadith were created to serve the needs of the later religious community.  Even the traditional Muslim account accepts that point; the whole reason for the "isnad" system developing was because hadith were proliferating at such a tremendous rate and it was known that most were invalid fabrications that frequently contradicted each other.  This is why Bukhari's compilation of hadith is titled the "Valid."  The point being that invalidity was such an obvious problem, and he felt it was crucial to determine which hadith were valid, and even titled his book that way because the problem was so pressing.  In doing so claimed to have found a couple thousand valid hadith out of *hundreds of thousands* that were inauthentic.  Thus even by Bukhari's own account, there were mountains of fabricated hadith circulating in his time.

    In other words, everybody (even Muslim) agrees that the hadith circulating in the 2nd/3rd century were primarily fabricated at late dates to serve the purposes of various groups.  The only difference is over the *quantity* that was fabricated and the dates of their creation:  Muslims believe a tiny fraction of the hadiths were authentic reports going back to the prophet, that these authentic reports were assembled by the 2nd/3rd century scholars, and that this can be determined via isnad analysis, whereas I believe (a) essentially none are; and (b) even if some hadith were authentic, there is no rational way to tell which of them are.

    On the general issue of isnad analysis, there is a great book by Herbert Berg, which summarizes the arguments of all the lead scholars to date, and then conducts an original statistical analysis of isnads attributing exegetical hadith to Ibn Abbas -- conclusion being that the isnads are worthless and convey no information:

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Development-Exegesis-Early-Islam/dp/0415554160/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1403808657&sr=8-1&keywords=berg+exegesis

    In short, when the problem is that hadith are being fabricated at a frantic pace by everybody's admission, adding isnads to the mix does nothing because it is no harder to fabricate isnads than it is hadith.

    Even traditional Muslim scholars recognized that without some independent corroboration and principle you could not possibly determine authenticity of hadith, and they agreed that most hadith were fabricated.  That is why the peculiar isnad system was invented, to surmount that known and admitted epistemic problem.  But because the isnad system was created so late, is demonstrably faulty, and (even in principle) makes no sense as a sound evidentiary approach, it cannot be accepted.  We are left in the position where hadith are useful as an indication of the social environment where they were first recorded, but are so late, tendentious, contradictory, and polemical that they are useless as evidence about what "really happened" 200 years previously.

    What is also interesting is that it is not until very late, with Al Shafi, that the Sunnah of the Prophet as expressed in valid hadith become the basis of Shariah.  How could it be otherwise?  What could a jurist have done prior to the creation of the complex system of hadith compilations and isnads, when arguing for any particular point of law as being validated by the Sunnah of the Prophet?  What would you have cited?  Just some alleged hadith, and that citation itself creates a pressing need to canonize and systematize which hadith are valid.  The fact that this was not done until very late indicates the lateness of the entire phenomenon.
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