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- Lilyesque
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Muhammad
Reply #30 - June 26, 2014, 07:07 PM

Fascinating stuff. Have enough of my own reading in my subject to do at the moment to read this stuff (damn) so it is great to have you around.

I think that what you said I have always thought to be more likely though.
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Reply #31 - June 26, 2014, 07:07 PM

Quote
Quote from: Rubaya on June 26, 2014, 05:43 PM
^ I do Lilyesque. I came to know about this viewpoint from a book named 'Conspiracies Against the Quran'. Currently, I can't give you the link but I will provide it later.

Quote from: Lilyesque on June 26, 2014, 05:46 PM
Don't rush given your current predicament, thinking of you.

Well let us put that link a free pdf booklet here By By Abdul Wadud
Khalid Publishers, 1976 - Islam., I wonder whether he is in Bangladesh or Pakistan..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #32 - June 26, 2014, 07:11 PM

Spankyou Yeez!
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Reply #33 - June 26, 2014, 07:17 PM

Quote from: Zaotar on June 26, 2014, 06:55 PM
1). Yes, I think it is very clear that the hadith were created to serve the needs of the later religious community. .......

2). In other words, everybody (even Muslim) agrees that the hadith circulating in the 2nd/3rd century were primarily fabricated at late dates to serve the purposes of various groups. ....

3). In short, when the problem is that hadith are being fabricated at a frantic pace by everybody's admission, adding isnads to the mix does nothing because it is no harder to fabricate isnads than it is hadith.

Even traditional Muslim scholars recognized that without some independent corroboration and principle you could not possibly determine authenticity of hadith, and they agreed that most hadith were fabricated. ......

My goodness you seem to know/ read /researched about early Islam Zaotar., Were you in any way connected Islam apart from reading & researching on it?

And you may be interested in reading this Muhammad -Myth vs Reality..,

with best regards
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #34 - June 29, 2014, 06:53 AM

Talking about the Ahadith I still don't get how stupidly it was collected. They didn't even match its contents with that of the Quran. Prioritising Muhammad over so-called God's book proves that Islam is a human creation.
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Muhammad
Reply #35 - June 29, 2014, 06:59 AM

Also Ruby...some of it is clearly anti-Muslim political propaganda in which different Muslim factions fabricated hadiths in order to bolster their own claims.

This http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hadith-Muhammads-Legacy-Medieval-Foundations/dp/1851686630/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1404025112&sr=8-5&keywords=hadith is an excellent book on this very issue.

No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
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Reply #36 - June 29, 2014, 02:08 PM

Quote from: Jedi on June 29, 2014, 06:59 AM
Also Ruby.. ..............

This http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hadith-Muhammads-Legacy-Medieval-Foundations/dp/1851686630/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1404025112&sr=8-5&keywords=hadith is an excellent book on this very issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjHTXkh99Do

http://ahadithstudies.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/2010-reinhart-juynbolliana.pdf

Canonization-of-Ibn-Majah-..... Jonathan A C Brown

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #37 - June 30, 2014, 06:16 PM

Yep, what is interesting about Brown's article is that he makes no secret of the fact that (1) Muslims knew hadith were fabricated all the time, which is why they had to come up with the isnad system to try to impose some sense of order; and (2) compilations of hadith and their authenticity were analyzed and canonized INCREDIBLY late in Muslim history. Quote from that article by Brown:

"Five of the six books of the famous Sunni ‘Six Book’ canon – all of them except Ibn Mâjah’s Sunan - rose to prominence during the fourth/tenth and fifth/eleventh centuries in the Islamicate heartlands of the Nile/Oxus region."

In other words, one must distinguish the process of compilation from the process of canonization. Sunni compilations of hadith, as we know them, were written down incredibly long after Mohammed's death. But their canonization -- deciding which compilations were acceptable -- took centuries further, during which some were accepted and others rejected.

Another point, it is absolutely mind-boggling how many alleged "transmitters" were used by these guys in their isnads. We have *thousands* of alleged transmitters. It is interesting that some have argued this in favor of authenticity -- after all, how could thousands of people all be made up? -- whereas I would say the opposite, clearly it shows that people were just making up names at a frenetic pace, often making up obscure isnad links so that nobody could gainsay them. In an environment where none of this was written down in any authoritative form, there were essentially no constraints at all.
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