"It's all or nothing" type of thinking

1« Previous thread | Next thread »
- Cornflower
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
"It's all or nothing" type of thinking
OP - June 02, 2014, 05:49 PM

So I read a while ago about Eskil Franck, an esteemed theologian and former priest from the Swedish protestant church, who some years ago left the church and no longer identify as Christian (You can read about him more here, in Swedish: http://religionsvetenskapligakommentarer.blogspot.se/2013/09/normal-0-false-false-false-en-us-ja-x.html )

What got me thinking was the article's author, a historian of religions, saying it was the very "all or nothing" type of thinking, that was so much a part of Franck's protestant religious background, that also lead him to leaving the faith. The gist of it; Franck claimed he could not be intellectually honest with himself while believing in the Bible or Christian beliefs while at the same time knowing its history etc.

This is also a big part of why I left Islam. I had learned enough about Islamic history, the compilation of the Quran and hadeeth, not to mention all the fallacies, errors and contradictions found in the texts, which all made me realize that either I accepted it all, or I rejected it all. I had tried for a very long time arguing with myself that "they all got it wrong", "allah really intended this, it is so clear, the scholars of the past were just affected by their culture" or whatever. One day I realized I was deluding myself, because who was I to come with some new re-interpretation of the religion 1400 years after its founding while knowing that if a shariah state was established right now, I would not even be allowed to utter my opinion . all in accordance with the sacred texts.

However, it occurred to me that this, perhaps, is a dogmatic approach as the one who argues you must believe in the literal word of god with no room for personal choice or interpretation. Are we (I) guilty of the same mistake? Would it be more reasonable or "correct" to accept that religion changes over time (which it does, but I would argue that this shows it is man-made and thus should be abandoned all-together), even though that would mean changing the very core beliefs of that religion, and that there is no theological problem with this? I can accept that other people do it, even though I couldn't, but I really don't have any respect for them because I think it's self-delusional.

I think this is the reason why we sometimes get caught up in what "real" Islam really is. Any thoughts about this? It would be interesting to know how you all have reasoned about this issue.

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
- Rubaya
- Pub Regular
- offline
"It's all or nothing" type of thinking
Reply #1 - June 02, 2014, 06:13 PM

This is just my opinion CF. If there was a God, He would only look at how you lead your life. If He was theistic and you didn't worship Him, maybe he would have forgiven you if your righteous deeds outweigh your bad ones. But if there WAS a God why don't we have a single clue about Him?
- Cornflower
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
"It's all or nothing" type of thinking
Reply #2 - June 02, 2014, 06:18 PM

Well, I didn't mean whether or not god exists. I was thinking more about our attitudes and thought about how we conclude what is "right" or "true" (in our case) Islam. Don't know If I expressed myself well enough

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
- ibn Bilal
- Global Moderator
- سلاسي هو المسيح
- offline
"It's all or nothing" type of thinking
Reply #3 - June 02, 2014, 06:39 PM

I found myself coming to terms with this as well. Initially, as I believe I've even stated before, I noticed the way I was tailoring the Qur'an to suit my own conclusions and felt extremely dishonest. I immediately saw it as an all or nothing, take it or leave it sort of deal. The verse, "Say, shall you believe in part of the book and disbelieve in part...[basically, 'well if you do then you are going to hell, too.']" definitely helped push me towards "leave it."

Then, I began to notice just how convinced and sincere certain people who still claim Islam, despite having no justifiable reason to do so according to traditional sunni sources, really seemed to be. Muslims like Usama Hassan who somehow believe that the Qur'an is compatible with evolution, or LGBT Muslims who seem to honestly believe that being a homosexual is not in contradiction with the claim of being a Muslim, really got me thinking of just how boundless the possibilities really are.

At first, I admit I found it easy to completely dismiss them as misguided. Then, I thought to myself, "Well why not? Who's to say they can't do with Islam whatever the hell they want to do with it?"

Who is to say that people in Indonesia who want to express spirituality through singing the Qur'an can't do so? Who is to say that people who want to re-interpret the Qur'an so that it does not mean all of those nasty repulsive things to them anymore shouldn't be encouraged to do that.

Then. I started thinking practically about this from my own perspective. I grew up celebrating Eid, for example. Even as a kid, the Eid celebrations I knew bore little resemblance to what the wahhabi conservatives call Eid. There were games, there was music, there were pots and pots of home cooked dishes and desserts right out of the pages of festive Americana. We really had just adopted Eid then and tweaked it and spiced it up to fit our culture. Why can't I do that now? Why can't I go out and have an Eid drink or an iftar party? Cetainly, what most people do for Christmas nowadays is nothing like what the Church must have had in mind when they first instituted the holiday. How accommodating to change can people like me, who don't actually believe in traditional Islamic teachings, actually force Islam to become. What could our role be?

Pardon me while I go a little out of the box here, but these are some things I've thought from a philosophical perspective. What if the entire concept of Islamic Aqeedah was completely turned on its head?

What if we were to hijack terms like "Allah" and reinterpret them to mean things like our life's philosophy or our personal ethos? What if, for example, I took the name of Allah, Al-wadood, The Love, then said, "well, if Allah is love, then anything that contradicts my understanding of love can not be from Allah."

Or if I took Al-Aleem, The All Knowing, and said, well, if Allah is All Knowing, then anything that contradicts established and verified knowledge can not be from Allah. So on and so forth, with The Most Merciful, The Just, The Wise, etc. So many troubling aspects of Islam could be eliminated if understandings like that could spread amongst people who still have an interest in maintaining the label of "Muslim" for whatever reason.

It's not unlike what has happened in Christianity and the transformation of its idea of God.

I fear I could write quite a bit on this subject, as it's something I've thought of a lot, recently. I'm not sure all of my ideas about it are practical, and I'm not sure if this free range of ideas actually offers anything concrete, so I'm hesitant to go into too much detail. The reality, of course, today is that the monster we call Islam is still far less benign in many of its teachings and practices than anything I've described above. That is the real obstacle to overcome. But perhaps a little reinterpretation is part of the solution.
- Cornflower
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
"It's all or nothing" type of thinking
Reply #4 - June 02, 2014, 07:21 PM

I agree that re-interpretation would solve a lot of issues and problems, just like getting rid of the idea of Quran being the literal word of god. For Islam to undergo the same metamorphosis as Christianity has would solve many problems, at least from the theoretical perspective I'm trying to look at it from. But if we're talking about actually believing in it, then I find it really silly. The problem I have is, if we are sticking to the texts, it all becomes impossible. You know what I mean hm, about all the principles we have to apply when interpreting the names and attributes of allah.

It becomes so contradictory that I really can't see how you can remain intellectually honest with yourself but at the same time try to bend and shape the religion according to your own beliefs and values. What use do you have for religion, when you really don't need it to be a good person. And if its spirituality you're after, then why chose a theistic god when you don't even want to follow its message?

This is where I stop myself and think; well, do you believe then that there is only "one true" Islam? This is actually something I was vehemently opposed to the last year as a Muslim. Despite wearing the niqab and practicing a fairly traditional sunni Islam when it came to fiqh and fundamental aqeedah, I was a liberal-on-the-verge-of-queer feminist who had come to terms that there is no pure version of Islam. It is always shaped by our own understanding, religion doesn't exist in a vacuum. Now as an apostate, I find it difficult to think that way. Maybe because I still feel so much resentment and bitterness when thinking about Islam and allah?

"The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
- ibn Bilal
- Global Moderator
- سلاسي هو المسيح
- offline
"It's all or nothing" type of thinking
Reply #5 - June 02, 2014, 07:46 PM

Quote
The problem I have is, if we are sticking to the texts, it all becomes impossible.

That's the thing, you'd have to completely disregard much of the text or interpret them in an entirely different way. If we look, for example, of the type of God that apologists like WLC are arguing for, it bears very little resemblance from the type of God we find in a literal interpretation of scripture. I'd say a good deal of Christian intellectuals who claim belief in a god are really referring something very different from what an early Christian must have envisioned as God the Father.

Islamic apologists, on the other hand, use the same techniques to refer to a very literal and traditional understanding of Allah. heaven, and hell.
- hocuspocus
- Member
- offline
"It's all or nothing" type of thinking
Reply #6 - June 02, 2014, 07:53 PM

It depends on the claims. Since Islam claims to be the final, unchanged message pertaining towards the truth, any changes made to the religion cannot possibly be theologically reasonable.
- ibn Bilal
- Global Moderator
- سلاسي هو المسيح
- offline
"It's all or nothing" type of thinking
Reply #7 - June 02, 2014, 08:07 PM

Of course they can be. Changes have happened in all religious traditions. Those religions have become whatever the people who practice them accept as the religion.

Consider Arabia before the Wahhabi expansion. People did things that a strict and literal understanding of Islam would have forbidden. They worshiped graves, though that was forbidden. They made animal sacrifices to saints, though that was forbidden. They did all sorts of "innovation," yet to them, it was simply Islam. If enough Muslims accept evolution as true, for example, as the Catholic Church has done, then that becomes an "Islamic Belief."

I think that is the point we often overlook. Who would have ever thought we'd have people comfortable saying they are "Muslims" who don't believe in God? Islam is man made. It is of this earth. It will become whatever people allow it to become.

I personally prefer the ex-Muslim identification, but who am I to stop those who want to identify otherwise?
- Homo Sapien
- Member
- Pakistani Primate
- offline
"It's all or nothing" type of thinking
Reply #8 - June 02, 2014, 08:38 PM

A literal, inflexible, dogmatic approach to Islam and life/the world in general is the opposite of free thinking and critical enquiry & is exactly what makes extremists so dangerous & that does not apply solely to Islamic extremists.
In any internal battle between intellectual honesty and flexibility for ethical or logical reasons in the mind of the believer, I think flexibility has to win in order for Islam and the muslim world to evolve to anything like that seen in the Christian world & I would welcome this.

When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
- hocuspocus
- Member
- offline
"It's all or nothing" type of thinking
Reply #9 - June 02, 2014, 08:56 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on June 02, 2014, 08:07 PM
Of course they can be. Changes have happened in all religious traditions. Those religions have become whatever the people who practice them accept as the religion.

Consider Arabia before the Wahhabi expansion. People did things that a strict and literal understanding of Islam would have forbidden. They worshiped graves, though that was forbidden. They made animal sacrifices to saints, though that was forbidden. They did all sorts of "innovation," yet to them, it was simply Islam. If enough Muslims accept evolution as true, for example, as the Catholic Church has done, then that becomes an "Islamic Belief."

I think that is the point we often overlook. Who would have ever thought we'd have people comfortable saying they are "Muslims" who don't believe in God? Islam is man made. It is of this earth. It will become whatever people allow it to become.

I personally prefer the ex-Muslim identification, but who am I to stop those who want to identify otherwise?

It's not about whether a person can make Islam whatever he/she allows it to become. Ofcourse the person can! Any person can do this with any ideology that exists in the world today. But what, then. becomes the purpose of the word "Islam" in the first place if the definitions change? You might as well just create a new religion altogether and call it "My self-serving religion".
- ibn Bilal
- Global Moderator
- سلاسي هو المسيح
- offline
"It's all or nothing" type of thinking
Reply #10 - June 02, 2014, 09:02 PM

Quote
"My self-serving religion"

That is exactly what every religion does. Seriously, think about the many forms of protestantism that have emerged only a few centuries after it was first considered heretical. Look at how much thousands of years of exile and assimilation have done to what we call judaism. Religions change. And when they do change, the people who adopt the changes don't view themselves as any less devout.
- Nikolaj
- Pub Regular
- Yes, I have a duck fetish!
- offline
"It's all or nothing" type of thinking
Reply #11 - June 02, 2014, 09:43 PM

“And the Quran, bro, it wasn’t even a book in Muhammad’s own lifetime. It had to be collected off stones and leaves and animal ribs, revised in Uthman’s khalifah… with suras shortened, parts lost or switched around, subject to faulty human memory, opposing versions destroyed, and a thousand variant readings. There’s a lot of human-ness in that divine text. After all is said and done it’s a tiny little book for tiny little men, and Allah is BIG. You want to be Muslim? I’m so Muslim I can take a shit on Bukhari and wipe my ass with the Muwatta. I can say that Muhammad ate a fat dick and it doesn’t even matter because he’s dead and Allah’s alive.”
“How can you—”
“Because la ilaha illa Allah, that’s how. I’m so Muslim, fuck Islam.” He did not speak in a mean or cynical way—to the contrary, fuck Islam danced out his lips with the same romanticism as his deep drunken spiels. “I’m so Muslim, fiqh is worthless. No madrassa of imperfect human beings can claim ownership of my deen. Allah’s not entrusting the alims with shit. Let them give their jerk-off fatwas about how long a man’s beard should be, fuck all of ‘em.”
“So what are you,” I asked, “an agnostic?”
“No, I’m a Muslim. But if anything, agnosticism is the real Islam; because you’re waiting for answers from Allah Herself, not Imam Siraj Dickhead.”

- The Taqwacores, by Muhammad King - censored from the UK version.

(Just had to dumb this somewhere because I came around to re-read it)

Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
- ibn Bilal
- Global Moderator
- سلاسي هو المسيح
- offline
"It's all or nothing" type of thinking
Reply #12 - June 02, 2014, 10:06 PM

I first read that quote in Istanbul on the verge of a crisis of faith myself. I didn't really get it then. I understand the sentiment more now. What he is saying is that if Allah is truly greater, than it must be greater than anything the sahaba or even Muhammad could have conceived. It's revolutionary, but in a way, it's not.
- Nikolaj
- Pub Regular
- Yes, I have a duck fetish!
- offline
"It's all or nothing" type of thinking
Reply #13 - June 02, 2014, 10:12 PM

Well, the character is Shia. You don't have to listen

Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
- three
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
"It's all or nothing" type of thinking
Reply #14 - June 03, 2014, 12:48 AM

Quote from: Nikolaj on June 02, 2014, 09:43 PM
“And the Quran, bro, it wasn’t even a book in Muhammad’s own lifetime. It had to be collected off stones and leaves and animal ribs, revised in Uthman’s khalifah… with suras shortened, parts lost or switched around, subject to faulty human memory, opposing versions destroyed, and a thousand variant readings. There’s a lot of human-ness in that divine text. After all is said and done it’s a tiny little book for tiny little men, and Allah is BIG. You want to be Muslim? I’m so Muslim I can take a shit on Bukhari and wipe my ass with the Muwatta. I can say that Muhammad ate a fat dick and it doesn’t even matter because he’s dead and Allah’s alive.”
“How can you—”
“Because la ilaha illa Allah, that’s how. I’m so Muslim, fuck Islam.” He did not speak in a mean or cynical way—to the contrary, fuck Islam danced out his lips with the same romanticism as his deep drunken spiels. “I’m so Muslim, fiqh is worthless. No madrassa of imperfect human beings can claim ownership of my deen. Allah’s not entrusting the alims with shit. Let them give their jerk-off fatwas about how long a man’s beard should be, fuck all of ‘em.”
“So what are you,” I asked, “an agnostic?”
“No, I’m a Muslim. But if anything, agnosticism is the real Islam; because you’re waiting for answers from Allah Herself, not Imam Siraj Dickhead.”

- The Taqwacores, by Muhammad King - censored from the UK version.

(Just had to dumb this somewhere because I came around to re-read it)

Don't forget Michael Muhammad Knight wrote the book.

Don't let Hitler have the street.
1« Previous thread | Next thread »