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 Topic: Bigmo in the house

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  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #90 - July 03, 2014, 05:29 PM
    I'll give you a bit of help, Bigmo.

    Here is an online Arabic/English dictionary:

    http://freearabicdictionary.com/

    Type in ضرب and see what comes up. (You can copy and paste my text if you don't have an Arabic keyboard.)

    Let me know what it says.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #91 - July 03, 2014, 08:38 PM
    Yes Hassan that word means to hit, to disorganise, to confuse, etc. But Bigmo will somehow mak that site a Sunni one so nothing more to say.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #92 - July 03, 2014, 08:55 PM
    Oh don't worry, Rubaya, I'm fully aware that I'm very unlikely to get through the concrete wall, barbed wire & land-mines that believers erect to protect their beliefs from the light of reason. In fact Quranists are amongst the most entrenched and deeply in denial.

    tbh most online debates get nowhere, but it can be kinda fun in a weird way lol
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #93 - July 03, 2014, 08:56 PM
    Quote from: Rubaya on July 03, 2014, 08:38 PM
    Yes Hassan that word means to hit, to disorganise, to confuse, etc. But Bigmo will somehow mak that site a Sunni one so nothing more to say.

    Which would be decidedly odd, since it's the same word used elsewhere in the qur'an when allah tells Moses to 'strike' a rock with his staff.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #94 - July 03, 2014, 09:12 PM
    ....after chidding it and stop denying making love to it Cheesy.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #95 - July 03, 2014, 09:14 PM
    The verb daraba ضرب basically means "To Hit" but can also have other shades of meanings - most stemming from the idea of "To Hit" just like the word "Hit" in English can mean several things, (I hit upon an idea, Hit the road etc...)

    There are examples in the Qur'an of  daraba used in a metaphorical sense such as to "Strike a similitude/parable", "To keep away from", "To go forth" etc... but in each case it is always made clear when it is used in a metaphorical sense because of the use of qualifying particles such a preposition or explicitly stating it is a مثل = similitude/parable.

    In the case of 4:34 there is no such qualifying particle or mention that it is a parable/similitude and so it can only means "Hit" and simply cannot have a figurative meaning like "Avoid them" "Set forth for them a parable" etc...

    Here are some verses from the Qur'an where the verb daraba means "Hit". I want you to notice how the verb takes its object directly and is not qualified by any preposition or word like parable/similitude etc... In each case it means "Hit"

     اضْرِبُوهُنَّ  "Hit them" (4.34)

     يَضْرِبُونَ وُجُوهَهُمْ وَأَدْبَارَهُمْ  "They hit their faces and their backs" (8.50)

     ضَرْبَ الرِّقَابِ "Hit the necks" (i.e. chop their heads off) (47.4)

     اضْرِبُوهُ  "Hit it" (2.73)

    Now in the following verses the verb daraba doesn't mean Hit - at least not in a literal sense - but notice that it - and/or it's object - are qualified by a preposition and/or a word like مثل similitude/parable or في in the Earth/Land...

      ضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا Allah strikes a parable  (14:24)

      ضَرْبًا فِي الْأَرْضِ "Going forth in the land" (2:273)

    أَفَنَضْرِبُ عَنْكُمُ الذِّكْرَ صَفْحًا   "Should we turn away the reminder from you?" (43.5)

      ما ضربوه لك إلا جدلا   "They do not set it forth for you save by way of disputation" (43:58)

    1. If  اضْرِبُوهُنَّ   "Hit them" meant "Leave them alone/Go away from them" it would have to have a preposition like عن (From/Away).  So it would be  واضربوا عنهن

    2. If it meant "Strike up a similitude for them" it would have to have a preposition like ل (to/for) and a qualifying word like "Parable" مثلا.  So it would be:   واضربوا لهن مثلا

    3. If it meant "and go forth in the land" it would have to have a preposition like في and a qualifying word like "Earth" الارض.  So it would be:   واضربوا في الارض

    There is one example of the verb daraba used in a non-literal sense without any preposition:

       يضرب الله الحق والباطل " Thus doth Allah show forth Truth and Vanity..." (43:5)

    But there are two big clues that it is to be taken non-literally. Firstly Truth and Falsehood are abstract nouns so one can't literally "hit" them and secondly the verse goes on to say: كذلك يضرب الله الأمثال  "Likewise does God set forth parables." Can't really get clearer than that.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #96 - July 03, 2014, 11:06 PM
    If I were a supremely wise divine being telling people who are inclined to hit their wives, that they should definitely NOT hit their wives - the very last thing I would do is use a word that means "Hit!"

    I mean, what was Allah thinking!!??
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #97 - July 03, 2014, 11:17 PM
    Seeing as this is still your intro thread and all, try not to take criticism of your ideology personally, easier said than done I know. Why not stick around for a bit and enjoy some of the other threads if you like, also feel free to contribute to them as well. Just thought I should point this out.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #98 - July 03, 2014, 11:47 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on July 03, 2014, 11:06 PM
    If I were a supremely wise divine being telling people who are inclined to hit their wives, that they should definitely NOT hit their wives - the very last thing I would do is use a word that means "Hit!"

    I mean, what was Allah thinking!!??


    I made a similar point last month.

    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on June 11, 2014, 12:04 PM
    Yeah that's something I've come across a number of times. The separation comes before the violence, and if it's just not working you should divorce so the violence can't happen anyway. I think if that's what the quran actually meant that's what it'd say. Here's my take on what it would say if it actually meant that.

    Quote
    [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], if you fear you shall strike them, divorce them before you are given to anger

    Or something like that.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #99 - July 04, 2014, 12:47 AM


    Quote from: Doubting Tomas on July 03, 2014, 11:17 PM
    Seeing as this is still your intro thread and all, try not to take criticism of your ideology personally, easier said than done I know. Why not stick around for a bit and enjoy some of the other threads if you like, also feel free to contribute to them as well. Just thought I should point this out.

    Agreed.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #100 - July 04, 2014, 01:19 AM
    ^ Yes, that's very true. We don't need to agree with your views for you to stick around. We also talk about other junk!
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #101 - July 04, 2014, 10:10 AM
    Yes, I apologise for hijacking your intro thread, Bigmo.

    If you want to continue our discussion, I have started a thread for you here:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=26716.0
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #102 - July 04, 2014, 06:17 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on July 03, 2014, 08:55 PM
    Oh don't worry, Rubaya, I'm fully aware that I'm very unlikely to get through the concrete wall, barbed wire & land-mines that believers erect to protect their beliefs from the light of reason. In fact Quranists are amongst the most entrenched and deeply in denial.

    tbh most online debates get nowhere, but it can be kinda fun in a weird way lol


    Maybe because you are relying on a single word and not looking at how the Quran talks about holding people accountable. Its like u look at it in bits and pieces while I see the Quran as a whole.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #103 - July 04, 2014, 06:23 PM
    Quote from: Rubaya on July 03, 2014, 08:38 PM
    Yes Hassan that word means to hit, to disorganise, to confuse, etc. But Bigmo will somehow mak that site a Sunni one so nothing more to say.


    I think what it is is a desperate need to find fault in the Quran. A word here a term there and mayby a verse here or there. that sort of thing. Mind u there are over 6000 verses in the Quran and if that is all there is to criticize than
    Quote from: Hassan on July 03, 2014, 11:06 PM
    If I were a supremely wise divine being telling people who are inclined to hit their wives, that they should definitely NOT hit their wives - the very last thing I would do is use a word that means "Hit!"

    I mean, what was Allah thinking!!??


    Maybe Allah is thinking to read the rest of the Quran to understand what its saying.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #104 - July 04, 2014, 06:24 PM
    Quote from: Rubaya on July 03, 2014, 08:01 AM
    Listen that beating of wife is applicable when she disobeys and that is not necessarily limited to adultery. Read your favourite book again. And for the sake of argument let's just accept that it is indeed for adultery then why does only the men have the right to beat their wives? Why are the wives deprived from the pleasure of punishing the husbands themselves?

    Guys, the funny thing is that one Quranist site says that obedient here means obedient to God and not one's husband. And the three stages of punishment should be applicable if the wife wants to desert her husband. And the third stage is not beating, it is just complying with the wife's rule and leave her Cheesy. See Bigmo I have better interpretations than you. Beat me at that Tongue.


    The verse about adultery says the adulterer and adulteress.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #105 - July 04, 2014, 06:27 PM
    Quote from: Doubting Tomas on July 03, 2014, 11:17 PM
    Seeing as this is still your intro thread and all, try not to take criticism of your ideology personally, easier said than done I know. Why not stick around for a bit and enjoy some of the other threads if you like, also feel free to contribute to them as well. Just thought I should point this out.


    Its not a criticism of my ideology rather questioning my interpretation. What is interesting while some here accuse me of trying to spin the verses of the Quran to sugar coat it I also detect some here trying to put more grease on it to criticize it.

    The issue of slavery is a good example of this.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #106 - July 05, 2014, 03:32 AM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 04, 2014, 06:23 PM
    I think what it is is a desperate need to find fault in the Quran. A word here a term there and mayby a verse here or there. that sort of thing. Mind u there are over 6000 verses in the Quran and if that is all there is to criticize than
    Maybe Allah is thinking to read the rest of the Quran to understand what its saying.

    so perhaps you think people are getting to bogged down with pesky little details and not looking at the book as a whole? Well the kindest thing I could say about it, is that it lacks any real sense of humanity(as held by non believers or even some less orthodox muslims) and is far more relevant for a 7th century bedouin way of life and if I'm honest totally out of touch with the modern world.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #107 - July 05, 2014, 05:31 PM
    so perhaps you think people are getting to bogged down with pesky little details and not looking at the book as a whole? Well the kindest thing I could say about it, is that it lacks any real sense of humanity(as held by non believers or even some less orthodox muslims) and is far more relevant for a 7th century bedouin way of life and if I'm honest totally out of touch with the modern world.

    I have no problem discussing details but its sometimes done with turning a blind eye to what other verses have to say about an issue. There is a lot of selective quotation of the Quran. That by definition is called half truths.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #108 - July 05, 2014, 05:51 PM
    Not really, if there is an internal contradiction between verses then its not "looking at it as a whole" but just that, a contradiction.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #109 - July 13, 2014, 11:28 AM
    I see some people are talking about age of marriage. Some here believe the story that the prophet of the Quran married some 9 year old. This is a tradition that exists in Eastern society. The idea here is that physical maturity is the criteria for a girl to be married and not mental maturity. This is a violation of the Quran.

    The minimum age for marriage as per Quran , is the minimum age a human being can understand the verses and commands of the Quran and apply them. The Quran only accepts mental maturity for marriages and not just physical maturity.

    The Quran does not recognize parental authority in marriages. It recognized parental or family authority if a person was deceased and his family want compensation for his loss. Other wise the authority is for the individual. Government authority in the Quran is only recognized when there is a dispute between two or more parties.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #110 - July 13, 2014, 11:35 AM
    Quote
    The minimum age for marriage as per Quran , is the minimum age a human being can understand the verses and commands of the Quran and apply them. The Quran only accepts mental maturity for marriages and not just physical maturity.


    Hello Jimmy Saville, sorry Bigmo, and how do we establish this criteria. Imagine if I said to you 'the age of sexual/mental maturity is when a girl is able to understand the basics of British Law and has passed her SATS'. This is an open invitation for paedophiles.

    There is such a thing as EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE and SOCIAL INTELLIGENCE and PHYSICAL MATURITY, which no girl on the face of this Earth, expecially the mythical Aishah, at the age of 9 possess.  When Muhammad married Aishah do you relly think that he was just going to engage in intellectual debates with her? No. Marriage is more than being mentally astute for to prepare for marriage you must have a certaind egree of social awareness which can no way have been cultivated at such a young age. It was one thing to say 'back then it was seen as okay' but quite another to justify it on such shoddy grounds. You are justifying PAEDOPHILLIA.

    Oh...and 90 year old shaykhs were unable to understand the Quran...in fact the QURAN did not exist in its entirety back then so your argument falls apart.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #111 - July 13, 2014, 11:38 AM
    he's lost the plot
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #112 - July 13, 2014, 11:39 AM
    I'm still waiting for a straight yes or no answer to my question.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #113 - July 13, 2014, 11:48 AM
    Don't expect one Quod. Refer back to your sig.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #114 - July 13, 2014, 11:49 AM
    Posted by: Quod Sum Eris - Today at 11:39 AM Quote this post
    I'm still waiting for a straight yes or no answer to my question.

    Which question? And please not a question I have answered two or three times already.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #115 - July 13, 2014, 11:51 AM
    You haven't responded to my post Bigmo. Are you hiding from me!?
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #116 - July 13, 2014, 12:07 PM
    This is not theology. This is crisis management and damage limitation.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #117 - July 13, 2014, 12:47 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 13, 2014, 11:28 AM
    I see some people are talking about age of marriage. Some here believe the story that the prophet of the Quran married some 9 year old. This is a tradition that exists in Eastern society. The idea here is that physical maturity is the criteria for a girl to be married and not mental maturity. This is a violation of the Quran.

    The minimum age for marriage as per Quran , is the minimum age a human being can understand the verses and commands of the Quran and apply them. The Quran only accepts mental maturity for marriages and not just physical maturity.

    The Quran does not recognize parental authority in marriages. It recognized parental or family authority if a person was deceased and his family want compensation for his loss. Other wise the authority is for the individual. Government authority in the Quran is only recognized when there is a dispute between two or more parties.


    So there is no mention of Mahram in Quran? Mahram is an authority over women, per Quran. 4:22-23. Guardianship granted men over women they are related to. This is authority. You deny this verse?
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #118 - July 13, 2014, 12:55 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 13, 2014, 11:28 AM
    I see some people are talking about age of marriage. Some here believe the story that the prophet of the Quran married some 9 year old. This is a tradition that exists in Eastern society. The idea here is that physical maturity is the criteria for a girl to be married and not mental maturity. This is a violation of the Quran.

    The minimum age for marriage as per Quran , is the minimum age a human being can understand the verses and commands of the Quran and apply them. The Quran only accepts mental maturity for marriages and not just physical maturity.

    The Quran does not recognize parental authority in marriages. It recognized parental or family authority if a person was deceased and his family want compensation for his loss. Other wise the authority is for the individual. Government authority in the Quran is only recognized when there is a dispute between two or more parties.


    I had friends reading at college level when they were nine. Per what you say, they were old enough to be married off, due to their comprehension?
    I should perhaps never be married. Because I do not understand how a man should correct his wife if she is not obedient, and indeed I do not understand the necessity of obedience from one adult to another, at all.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #119 - July 13, 2014, 02:40 PM
    Quote from: three on July 13, 2014, 12:47 PM
    So there is no mention of Mahram in Quran? Mahram is an authority over women, per Quran. 4:22-23. Guardianship granted men over women they are related to. This is authority. You deny this verse?


    And do not marry those whom your fathers married, except what has already occurred. Indeed, it was an immorality and hateful [to Allah ] and was evil as a way.

    Prohibited to you [for marriage] are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your [milk] mothers who nursed you, your sisters through nursing, your wives' mothers, and your step-daughters under your guardianship [born] of your wives unto whom you have gone in. But if you have not gone in unto them, there is no sin upon you. And [also prohibited are] the wives of your sons who are from your [own] loins, and that you take [in marriage] two sisters simultaneously, except for what has already occurred. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.

    I am not sure what do you mean.
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