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 Topic: Bigmo in the house

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  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #120 - July 13, 2014, 02:44 PM
    Quote from: three on July 13, 2014, 12:55 PM
    I had friends reading at college level when they were nine. Per what you say, they were old enough to be married off, due to their comprehension?
    I should perhaps never be married. Because I do not understand how a man should correct his wife if she is not obedient, and indeed I do not understand the necessity of obedience from one adult to another, at all.


    I said the minimum age of marriage is the age a person can understand the verses of the Quran and no just be able to read. That is literacy and not mental maturity.

    Another words, what is the minimum age for the Quran like you would have for movie age criteria.

  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #121 - July 13, 2014, 02:45 PM
    He is basically saying Aisha had the mental maturity of a woman at the age of 9.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #122 - July 13, 2014, 02:50 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 13, 2014, 02:44 PM
    I said the minimum age of marriage is the age a person can understand the verses of the Quran and no just be able to read. That is literacy and not mental maturity.

    Another words, what is the minimum age for the Quran like you would have for movie age criteria.




    Where does it say this in the quran? 
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #123 - July 13, 2014, 02:51 PM
    What. So if a five-year-old to thirteen-year-old has the "mental maturity" to understand the Quran, you'd support her getting married to an adult at any of those ages? And as for the vast majority of adults that you believe do not understand the Quran, are we at a good age for marriage?

    I fear you'll actually try to answer those questions if you don't ignore me again, so let me just ask you if you can see why the "can you understand the Quran test" just might not be the best way to gauge if a person is ready for marriage and the consummation of that marriage?
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #124 - July 13, 2014, 02:53 PM
    Also, what Berberella said. Grin I keep forgetting you claim to be a Quranist.

    Where's the evidence that this sort of mental maturity is required for all marriages and that the test is understanding of the Quran? Fear God, Bigmo, and don't put words in His mouth.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #125 - July 13, 2014, 02:54 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 13, 2014, 02:44 PM
    I said the minimum age of marriage is the age a person can understand the verses of the Quran and no just be able to read. That is literacy and not mental maturity.

    Another words, what is the minimum age for the Quran like you would have for movie age criteria.


    But then, acording to your account, only YOU and a handful of Quranists truly udnerstand the Quran right?

    Can you not see the flaw in your own logic? I mean, suppose I said that so long as a woman understands the message of George Orwell's 'Animal Farm' then she is ripe for marraige and all the other things it accompanies.

    Why is this restricted to women - gender discrimination - why not this proviso for young boys too.

    But then Allah says:

    (3:7) "He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who have perversity in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning."

    These are verses that no one understands. But, dear Allah, we are unsure of that which you made clear...how can young girls clear this up. Anyway, you are assuming that Aishah was mentally mature. Prove it.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #126 - July 13, 2014, 02:57 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on July 13, 2014, 02:50 PM
    Where does it say this in the quran?  


    there's a verse that mentions pre-menstrual wives. Quran allows men to marry children.

    Quran 65:04

     "And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair."
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #127 - July 13, 2014, 03:06 PM
    I mentioned that on the koranic law vs sharia law thread, along with the Arabic.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #128 - July 13, 2014, 03:08 PM
    I'm sure Bigmo has a different translation of that Grin

    I just want to know where it says in the quran that a girl cannot marry until she has the mental maturity to handle the quran.  :/
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #129 - July 13, 2014, 03:10 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 13, 2014, 02:40 PM
    And do not marry those whom your fathers married, except what has already occurred. Indeed, it was an immorality and hateful [to Allah ] and was evil as a way.

    Prohibited to you [for marriage] are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your [milk] mothers who nursed you, your sisters through nursing, your wives' mothers, and your step-daughters under your guardianship [born] of your wives unto whom you have gone in. But if you have not gone in unto them, there is no sin upon you. And [also prohibited are] the wives of your sons who are from your [own] loins, and that you take [in marriage] two sisters simultaneously, except for what has already occurred. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.

    I am not sure what do you mean.

    You just quoted what I mean. Under your guardianship. Mahram. Is what I mean.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #130 - July 13, 2014, 03:13 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 13, 2014, 02:44 PM
    I said the minimum age of marriage is the age a person can understand the verses of the Quran and no just be able to read. That is literacy and not mental maturity.

    Another words, what is the minimum age for the Quran like you would have for movie age criteria.




    How exactly does one determine this? Nothing in Quran is too difficult for a child to understand. If one has imagination and intelligence and can read, one can understand it. My kids understand every movie out there, just some movies give them nightmares. Do you mean when the Quran does not give you nightmares, then you know you are old enough?

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #131 - July 13, 2014, 03:17 PM
    Quote from: INcePtion on July 13, 2014, 02:45 PM
    He is basically saying Aisha had the mental maturity of a woman at the age of 9.


    Apparently, when you are old enough for your husband to play dolls with you, and to let your friends come in to play dolls with you, then you are old enough.
    Oh wait. I forgot that Quranists ignore history and all historical accounts and dispute all claims to historical accuracy. Because if it is not in Quran, it never happened.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #132 - July 13, 2014, 03:27 PM
    What is so crap about this entire argument about age for marriage is that mental maturity to understand a book can happen very young for some people, but their physical maturity to handle penetration has not.

    Bigmo you are ignoring the fact that the body is involved in the process of sex, not the mind  (yea yes people, the mind is obviously a part of it, I just mean the body matters a whole lot in this situation).  Are you saying that genius children who graduate long before their peers, because they have shown the mental ability to understand a range of mature books and information, have the physical ability to be penetrated without long term physical damage from tearing, potential life long sterility due to said damage, and an increased risk of cervical cancer the earlier that penetration occurs?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #133 - July 13, 2014, 03:28 PM
    ^Just another example of yet another Islamic concept becoming outdated, therefore proof it is not a divine revelation..  that's why we have age restrictons on marriage today at 16+ years to make sure by this age a child is mature enough to bear child and deal with a relationship.. Although i would like to see an age restriction of 35 for guys to reach the age of maturtity lol we're getting there slowly
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #134 - July 13, 2014, 03:28 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on July 13, 2014, 03:08 PM
    I just want to know where it says in the quran that a girl cannot marry until she has the mental maturity to handle the quran.  :/


    Bigmo: 'That's what the Quran MEANT to say' You ahve to see the text as a whole and not isolate certain inncovenient verses'.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #135 - July 13, 2014, 03:31 PM
    Grin  To be honest, taking it as a whole still doesn't answer the question. 

    A woman's age for marriage is never mentioned.  Nothing alluding to it, like if 4 witnesses say she is mentally mature etc etc, like the slippery arguments he uses to downplay domestic violence.  Just silence on the matter.

    Except when it discusses how to handle divorcing one, and the rules if she has never bled before.

    Unless it is in Bigmos special translation. 
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #136 - July 13, 2014, 03:37 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on July 13, 2014, 03:27 PM
    What is so crap about this entire argument about age for marriage is that mental maturity to understand a book can happen very young for some people, but their physical maturity to handle penetration has not.


    Exactly, but Bigmo doesn't understand this, can't argue against it, and so he will likely not respond to it.

    The thing you said earlier is something he should more identify with, as a "Quranist."

    Bigmo, either show us where it says anything about being able to understand the Quran as proof of mental maturity as a requirement for marriage, or admit that you just pulled that out of thin air and distorted the Quran's message like you believe the Sunnis and Shia do to fit your immediate desires. Don't embarrass Quranism further, show some honesty and integrity and do one or the other.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #137 - July 13, 2014, 06:34 PM
    Muhammad DIDN'T marry a 9 year old.

    He married a 6 year old and had full, penetrative sex with her when she turned 9.

    furious
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #138 - July 13, 2014, 07:26 PM
    The foundation of Bigmo's morality, like most theists, is built almost entirely upon the saintliness of his saint. This image must be maintained and defended or else the entire system starts falling apart. But Bigmo has a problem. His saint is a child rapist. This singular fact demolishes any notion of saintliness. But for whatever reason – loyalty, pride, family/community repercussions, deep emotional investment in his worldview, unwillingness to adapt and evolve, whatever – he cannot denounce his saint.

    So his course of action is to find ways of portraying the child rape as not child rape. Trying different angles for ways to undermine the gravity of the charge, exploiting any ambiguity he can, muddying the waters, diverting attention away, smokescreening, filibustering, chicanery, reverse-engineering it. Damage limitation becomes a doctrine in itself. His theology becomes some rickety, jury-rigged, patchwork monstrosity, barely holding together, but that'll do for him. It doesn't matter if it's not truth. It doesn't need to be true. It just has to satisfy other needs, like keeping the idea of saintliness in play just enough so that he doesn't have to abandon the entire dogma system.

    He's like Wile E Coyote. He's gone over the edge of the cliff, completely overshot the limits of his ability to defend his position, running and running with no ground beneath him as long as he can, self-deluding himself that, if he just keeps bullshitting, he wont fall.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #139 - July 13, 2014, 09:09 PM
    Quote from: lua on July 13, 2014, 02:53 PM
    Also, what Berberella said. Grin I keep forgetting you claim to be a Quranist.

    Where's the evidence that this sort of mental maturity is required for all marriages and that the test is understanding of the Quran? Fear God, Bigmo, and don't put words in His mouth.


    Do not patronize me. Respect me like I respect you.
    Quote from: BerberElla on July 13, 2014, 03:08 PM
    I'm sure Bigmo has a different translation of that Grin

    I just want to know where it says in the quran that a girl cannot marry until she has the mental maturity to handle the quran.  :/


    Because only then can someone understand the Quranic command regarding marriage.

    The Quran says not to marry a polytheist even if you are impressed by him or her, it also says that a believer should not marry an adulterer. It also says that any conflict can be resolved by an arbiter etc. What age can someone understand and comprehend it.

    Quote from: three on July 13, 2014, 03:10 PM
    You just quoted what I mean. Under your guardianship. Mahram. Is what I mean.


    It is talking about step daughters.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #140 - July 13, 2014, 09:09 PM
    I'm wondering did Bigmo give his quranist opinion on Hijab in quran or punishments mentioned in the book such as cuttiong off the hand of a theif.. ?    I'd love to hear  
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #141 - July 13, 2014, 09:13 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 13, 2014, 09:09 PM

    It is talking about step daughters.


    Why would a step daughter be under any man's guardianship? For what reason?
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #142 - July 13, 2014, 09:17 PM
    Quote from: Kodanshi on July 13, 2014, 06:34 PM
    Muhammad DIDN'T marry a 9 year old.

    He married a 6 year old and had full, penetrative sex with her when she turned 9.

    furious


    That is Talmudic influence

    MISHNAH. WHEN A GROWN-UP MAN (7) HAS HAD SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH (Cool A LITTLE GIRL, (9) OR WHEN A SMALL BOY (10) HAS INTERCOURSE WITH A GROWN-UP WOMAN, OR [WHEN A GIRL WAS ACCIDENTALLY] INJURED BY A PIECE OF WOOD (11) — [IN ALL THESE CASES] THEIR KETHUBAH IS TWO HUNDRED [ZUZ] …
    — Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Kethuboth 11a

    GEMARA. Rab Judah said that Rab said: A small boy who has intercourse with a grown-up woman makes her [as though she were] injured by a piece of wood. (1) When I said it before Samuel he said: 'Injured by a piece of wood' does not apply to (2) flesh. Some teach this teaching by itself: (3) [As to] a small boy who has intercourse with a grown-up woman, Rab said, he makes her [as though she were] injured by a piece of wood; whereas Samuel said: 'Injured by a piece of wood' does not apply to flesh. R. Oshaia objected: WHEN A GROWN-UP MAN HAS HAD INTERCOURSE WITH A LITTLE GIRL, OR WHEN A SMALL BOY HAS INTERCOURSE WITH A GROWN-UP WOMAN, OR WHEN A GIRL WAS ACCIDENTALLY INJURED BY A PIECE OF WOOD — [IN ALL THESE CASES] THEIR KETHUBAH IS TWO HUNDRED [ZUZ]; SO ACCORDING TO R. MEIR. BUT THE SAGES SAY: A GIRL WHO WAS INJURED ACCIDENTALLY BY A PIECE OF WOOD — HER KETHUBAH IS A MANEH! (4) Raba said, It means (5) this: When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than this, (6) it is as if one puts the finger into the eye; (7) but when a small boy has intercourse with a grown-up woman he makes her as 'a girl who is injured by a piece of wood,' and [with regard to the case of] 'a girl injured by a piece of wood,' itself, there is the difference of opinion between R. Meir and the Sages.
    — Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Kethuboth 11b

    There is lots of references like this in the Talmud. The idea is that physical maturity is what accounts for woemn and not mental maturity.

    Sunni Islam simply traced their tradition to Muhammad to give it authority while Shias (who do not believe Aisha was 9 when she married) traced their tradition to the prophet's household while Judaism to some Rabbinic authority.

    All of them believe that mental maturity is not needed and physical maturity is what is needed. They differ in how they raced that tradition. Sunni Islam only recognizes prophetic authority unlike Shias who have 12 Imams and Judaism who believe in rabbinic authority.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #143 - July 13, 2014, 09:18 PM
    Quote from: suki on July 13, 2014, 09:09 PM
    I'm wondering did Bigmo give his quranist opinion on Hijab in quran or punishments mentioned in the book such as cuttiong off the hand of a theif.. ?    I'd love to hear  


    Read my post about Koranic law versus Shariah law. My opening post that some here are scared to read or are not able to understand since they keep asking the same question.

    Quran only recognizes proportional justice.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #144 - July 13, 2014, 10:15 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 13, 2014, 09:09 PM
    Do not patronize me. Respect me like I respect you.


    Firstly, what is so patronizing about holding you to the standard you claim for yourself? Your job as a Quranist is to uphold the Quran without inventing nonsense like every eligible woman has to have the mental maturity to understand the Quran before you sleep with her.

    Secondly, if I only have to show you the level of respect you showed me, I think we're still fine. I was polite to you in the beginning, and your immediate response was to be "patronizing" to me, and ever since then I've seen you do little but ignore me and other members, unless you get it in your head to harass and bully a particular one. If this is your idea of respect, no wonder you have a problem with how we're receiving you here. Grin

    Finally, you did not prove your point at all with your lazy explanation. You made a giant leap because you want it to be true. If I still believed in God, I'd be more careful than to make things up like that and pass it off as His words. The Quran was clearly addressing the men with those verses, and the commands of marriage are primarily for the man to know and enforce, and it says nothing about the woman/girl he chooses for marriage being at the age where they understand the Quran. 
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #145 - July 13, 2014, 10:59 PM
    Now now.. be nice to our Quranist friend lua Smiley
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #146 - July 13, 2014, 11:09 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 13, 2014, 09:17 PM
    That is Talmudic influence

    MISHNAH. WHEN A GROWN-UP MAN (7) HAS HAD SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH (Cool A LITTLE GIRL, (9) OR WHEN A SMALL BOY (10) HAS INTERCOURSE WITH A GROWN-UP WOMAN, OR [WHEN A GIRL WAS ACCIDENTALLY] INJURED BY A PIECE OF WOOD (11) — [IN ALL THESE CASES] THEIR KETHUBAH IS TWO HUNDRED [ZUZ] …
    — Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Kethuboth 11a

    GEMARA. Rab Judah said that Rab said: A small boy who has intercourse with a grown-up woman makes her [as though she were] injured by a piece of wood. (1) When I said it before Samuel he said: 'Injured by a piece of wood' does not apply to (2) flesh. Some teach this teaching by itself: (3) [As to] a small boy who has intercourse with a grown-up woman, Rab said, he makes her [as though she were] injured by a piece of wood; whereas Samuel said: 'Injured by a piece of wood' does not apply to flesh. R. Oshaia objected: WHEN A GROWN-UP MAN HAS HAD INTERCOURSE WITH A LITTLE GIRL, OR WHEN A SMALL BOY HAS INTERCOURSE WITH A GROWN-UP WOMAN, OR WHEN A GIRL WAS ACCIDENTALLY INJURED BY A PIECE OF WOOD — [IN ALL THESE CASES] THEIR KETHUBAH IS TWO HUNDRED [ZUZ]; SO ACCORDING TO R. MEIR. BUT THE SAGES SAY: A GIRL WHO WAS INJURED ACCIDENTALLY BY A PIECE OF WOOD — HER KETHUBAH IS A MANEH! (4) Raba said, It means (5) this: When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than this, (6) it is as if one puts the finger into the eye; (7) but when a small boy has intercourse with a grown-up woman he makes her as 'a girl who is injured by a piece of wood,' and [with regard to the case of] 'a girl injured by a piece of wood,' itself, there is the difference of opinion between R. Meir and the Sages.
    — Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Kethuboth 11b

    There is lots of references like this in the Talmud. The idea is that physical maturity is what accounts for woemn and not mental maturity.

    Sunni Islam simply traced their tradition to Muhammad to give it authority while Shias (who do not believe Aisha was 9 when she married) traced their tradition to the prophet's household while Judaism to some Rabbinic authority.

    All of them believe that mental maturity is not needed and physical maturity is what is needed. They differ in how they raced that tradition. Sunni Islam only recognizes prophetic authority unlike Shias who have 12 Imams and Judaism who believe in rabbinic authority.


    Do you read what you link? This is about virginity and rape not maturity. Everything is explained in the following link. If need be I can again do your own research for you and explain it step by step. Since you are completely incapable of doing any research by both your examples of Judaism.

    MISHNAH. WHEN A GROWN-UP MAN47  HAS HAD SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH48  A LITTLE GIRL,49  OR WHEN A SMALL BOY50  HAS INTERCOURSE WITH A GROWN-UP WOMAN, OR [WHEN A GIRL WAS ACCIDENTALLY] INJURED BY A PIECE OF WOOD51  — [IN ALL THESE CASES] THEIR KETHUBAH IS TWO HUNDRED [ZUZ]; SO ACCORDING TO52  R. MEIR. BUT THE SAGES SAY: A GIRL WHO WAS INJURED ACCIDENTALLY BY A PIECE OF WOOD — HER KETHUBAH IS A MANEH. A VIRGIN, WHO WAS A WIDOW, A DIVORCEE, OR A HALUZAH FROM MARRIAGE53  — HER54  KETHUBAH IS A MANEH.55 (the full version...)


    Two cases are of rape and one is lose of virginity due to injury.

    http://www.come-and-hear.com/kethuboth/kethuboth_11.html
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #147 - July 13, 2014, 11:13 PM
    Quote from: three on July 13, 2014, 09:13 PM
    Why would a step daughter be under any man's guardianship? For what reason?


    I would appreciate an explanation on the Mahram concept, an answer to my question. Thank you.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #148 - July 13, 2014, 11:18 PM
    Quote from: Bigmo on July 13, 2014, 09:09 PM

    Because only then can someone understand the Quranic command regarding marriage.



    I understood far more complex ideas when I was 10 than the simple ideas of married presented in the Quran. More so this creates an issue. Since by your own words many do not understand marriage in the proper context as you have. Their marriages are invalid as are their claims to maturity. Also by this ignorance many husbands have committed acts of rape and unlawful marriage as their wives were ignorant of the above thus lawfully unable to consent to marriage.
  • Bigmo in the house
     Reply #149 - July 13, 2014, 11:28 PM
    Quote from: Qtian on July 13, 2014, 10:59 PM
    Now now.. be nice to our Quranist friend lua Smiley


    Grin Haven't seen you around in a while, Qtian! Or maybe we've just been ships in the night?
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