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 Topic: Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability

 (Read 4331 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     OP - July 06, 2014, 11:38 PM

    I've thought about things, and I've concluded that the main two things holding me back from becoming an Atheist are the fact that if I'm wrong, then I will be doomed to eternal hell, so with respect to that it might be better for me to gamble on believing in allah just in case islam is the truth.  The other thing which is holding me back is my belief that the quran is supposed to be inimitable.

    Can anybody give me good reasons to not believe in Pascal's Wager with respect to allah and the doctrine of quranic inimitability?
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #1 - July 06, 2014, 11:47 PM

    The pascal's Wager thing. What if you are wrong and Mohammed was a false prophet as the Christians think? You would be bound to hell anyway. And the inimitability thing is subjective, if you don't think it is imitable then of course it won't be and it will appear perfect. If you don't then you will find things that take your fancy more and you will prefer.
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #2 - July 07, 2014, 12:03 AM

    As Lily pointed out if you want to apply Pascal's Wager you must apply it to every religion, every god humanity has ever know. Even gods that are no longer believed in. The chances of picking the right god in this cases is slim to none. There are only four conclusions to this. Either you pick a god and gamble. Form a deist opinion. Become agnostic. Become an atheist.

    Pascal's Wager was a Christian argument for the Christian god.  It does not consider other religions, or gods. The god premise is assumed as christian but not proven.
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #3 - July 07, 2014, 12:06 AM

    Thanks for your feedback.  I greatly appreciate it.

    I could respond to your argument by saying that there are objective ways to measure the uniqueness and 'inimitability' of the quran.  Many (muslim) scholars have pointed to the word order and/or how the quranic words are placed in order to form a whole literary structure which cannot be imitated.  This unique literary structure, which also enables rhyming and has a powerful and unique rhythm, also tie in with its unique literary structure that cannot be imitated.  Also, reportedly many Arabic people and Arabic (orientalist) scholars have tried to imitate the rhythm and structure of the quran, but have failed.  There have been recorded attempts, but none have managed to meet the quranic challenge of producing something like it, with the power, rhythm, unique structure, etc.  I would say that the criteria are at least to a point objective, so I don't think it's completely subjective.  There's even also a famous poem which talks about elephants, it is a failed attempt to imitate the quran.  You can look it up online, if you would like.  


    I have also heard that the style of the quran is in such a way as to make the descriptions of hell fire seem as if the reader is experiencing them.  I am not sure if this is the case, as I have heard if from Muslims, but I do not know.

    So, taking this supposed inimitability of the quran into account, I could then say that gambling on the bet that islam is the truth would be the best bet/gamble, and so from there I could take my chances.  Since no other religion has a scripture which is inimitable and which has objective evidence in support of that respective claim.
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #4 - July 07, 2014, 12:16 AM

    Thanks for your feedback.  I greatly appreciate it.

    I could respond to your argument by saying that there are objective ways to measure the uniqueness and 'inimitability' of the quran.  Many (muslim) scholars have pointed to the word order and/or how the quranic words are placed in order to form a whole literary structure which cannot be imitated.  This unique literary structure, which also enables rhyming and has a powerful and unique rhythm, also tie in with its unique literary structure that cannot be imitated.  Also, reportedly many Arabic people and Arabic (orientalist) scholars have tried to imitate the rhythm and structure of the quran, but have failed.  There have been recorded attempts, but none have managed to meet the quranic challenge of producing something like it, with the power, rhythm, unique structure, etc.  I would say that the criteria are at least to a point objective, so I don't think it's completely subjective.  There's even also a famous poem which talks about elephants, it is a failed attempt to imitate the quran.  You can look it up online, if you would like.  


    I have also heard that the style of the quran is in such a way as to make the descriptions of hell fire seem as if the reader is experiencing them.  I am not sure if this is the case, as I have heard if from Muslims, but I do not know.

    So, taking this supposed inimitability of the quran into account, I could then say that gambling on the bet that islam is the truth would be the best bet/gamble, and so from there I could take my chances.  Since no other religion has a scripture which is inimitable and which has objective evidence in support of that respective claim.


    Couldn't you pick words with the same beat as words already in it and slot them in the gaps in an order that makes sense? Even if it isn't imitable so what? Michael Jackson's music is magical and inimitable and Shakespeare's plays are works of genius too dealing with many societal issues today. They were geniuses in there area but it doesn't necessarily mean they were right in what they said.
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #5 - July 07, 2014, 12:22 AM

    Lilyesque,

    I do not know what you mean by picking words that have a similar rhythm and then inserting them into the gaps.

    Can you please clarify?
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #6 - July 07, 2014, 12:22 AM

    Thanks for your feedback.  I greatly appreciate it.

    ............Many (muslim) scholars have pointed to the word order and/or how the quranic words are placed in order to form a whole literary structure which cannot be imitated.  This unique literary structure, which also enables rhyming and has a powerful and unique rhythm, also tie in with its unique literary structure that cannot be imitated. ...............

    Yes.. yes that is true Muslim scholars like  that Greek geek  tortoise  do say that ..

    For them I give this .. http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10181.msg261962#msg261962

    let me put that here.. you can read everything  at that link

    Quote
    Ta Seen Meem.[Al Quran ; 28:1]

    Ta Seen, [Al Quran ; 27:1]

    Ta Seen Meem [Al Quran ; 26:1]

    Ta Ha. [Al Quran ; 20:1]

    Kaf Ha Ya Ein Sad. [Al Quran ; 19:1]

    Alif Lam Ra. [Al Quran ; 15:1]

    Alif Lam Ra. [Al Quran ; 14:1]

    Alif, Lam, Mim, Ra. [Al Quran ; 13:1]

    Alif Lam Ra.[Al Quran ; 12:1]

    Alif Lam Ra.[Al Quran ; 11:1]

    Alif Lam Ra.[Al Quran ; 10:1]

    Alif Lam Meem Sad.[Al Quran ; 7:1]

    Alif Lam Meem.[Al Quran ; 3:1]

    Alif Lam Meem.[Al Quran ; 2:1]  

    Indeed those are the signs of  Book of wisdom..

    I rewrote that to  my good friend BMZ
     
      
    Quote
    Ohyee!.. False believers of Allah
        Allah knows.. what is in your heart"
        Allah knows..
        "when a false believer is HURT,
        then you start believing Allah"
        And you say we are with you. "We are with Allah"

        Allah know., You LIARS
        "when help from your Lord comes, they will surely say:
        "Indeed, we were with you"
        but After time passes .
        ..you transgress Allah commands.. and.. you forget Allah
        .. You bloody Lairs.. Cheaters and Rascals "..
      
    Ta Seen Meem
        Kaf Ha Ya Ein Sad.
        Alif Lam Ra ..
        .Doom ....Dam... DoooomM

        ..KhaboomM....
        Meem... dum..dum
        ..Ta Ha....
     Alif Lam Mim
     Faa' Qaaf.

     So yes to me like all those surahs of Quran the above surah also appears to be "a literary structure which cannot be imitated.  This unique literary structure, which also enables rhyming"

    that is what I give it to Islamic intellectuals .. but  I tell them, please don't blame me for that " Faa' Qaaf" verse., That is not me that is revealed to some one else..

    and let me put this link on that  Pascal’s Wager and religions

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #7 - July 07, 2014, 12:36 AM

    I've thought about things, and I've concluded that the main two things holding me back from becoming an Atheist are the fact that if I'm wrong, then I will be doomed to eternal hell, so with respect to that it might be better for me to gamble on believing in allah just in case islam is the truth.  The other thing which is holding me back is my belief that the quran is supposed to be inimitable.

    Can anybody give me good reasons to not believe in Pascal's Wager with respect to allah and the doctrine of quranic inimitability?


    Pascal's wager has never made sense to me. Firstly you can't pretend to believe if you don't really believe, and if you did pretend God would know. Secondly, there is more than one religion, are you going to believe them all?

    I'd suggest that you stop asking for proof or reasons not to believe and think for yourself.
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #8 - July 07, 2014, 12:37 AM

    Thanks for your feedback.  I greatly appreciate it.

    I could respond to your argument by saying that there are objective ways to measure the uniqueness and 'inimitability' of the quran.  Many (muslim) scholars have pointed to the word order and/or how the quranic words are placed in order to form a whole literary structure which cannot be imitated.  This unique literary structure, which also enables rhyming and has a powerful and unique rhythm, also tie in with its unique literary structure that cannot be imitated.  Also, reportedly many Arabic people and Arabic (orientalist) scholars have tried to imitate the rhythm and structure of the quran, but have failed.  There have been recorded attempts, but none have managed to meet the quranic challenge of producing something like it, with the power, rhythm, unique structure, etc.  I would say that the criteria are at least to a point objective, so I don't think it's completely subjective.  There's even also a famous poem which talks about elephants, it is a failed attempt to imitate the quran.  You can look it up online, if you would like.  


    I have also heard that the style of the quran is in such a way as to make the descriptions of hell fire seem as if the reader is experiencing them.  I am not sure if this is the case, as I have heard if from Muslims, but I do not know.

    So, taking this supposed inimitability of the quran into account, I could then say that gambling on the bet that islam is the truth would be the best bet/gamble, and so from there I could take my chances.  Since no other religion has a scripture which is inimitable and which has objective evidence in support of that respective claim.


    Arabic is a human language so inimitable is just an argument from incredibility. As Arabic is a human language it is entirely possible for any human with knowledge of this language to have created the Quran without divine aid. This is no more unique than someone creating a masterpiece in English, Latin, French, etc. We do assign the concept of inimitable to art work all the time. In fact there is a whole profession dedicated to this field. Yet we do not assign a divine nature to art as people do with the Quran.

    The issue with inimitable is that Muslims are the judges. Now since inimitable is part of religious doctrine very few will ever admit if someone matches or surpasses this standard. Also I have to point of there are a number of examples on this forum in which someone created a Sura, presented it to Muslims and these people thought it was from the Quran. Only when told it was not did they reject the challenge to inimitable doctrine. These people proved that this challenge is doctrine only.

    I could also point out that figures such as Moses are not historical fact but mythology. Moses is largely rejected in archaeology, my field, and assumed as a narrative created later. Much like Uncle Sam of America. Now putting aside inimitable arguments. If a text uses myth to justify it claims than by default this is not from divine origin but merely great fiction mixed with non-fiction.  

    Also I have to point out Islamic scholars are theologians, not critical scholarship. Much like Biblical scholars which are theologians. These scholars already hold the view that Islam is correct and are unable to challenge their bias. Much like some "scholars" assume a young earth, creationism, etc. When scholarship is done in a secular environment progress is made. When done in a religious one it is only done to confirm their presupposition.
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #9 - July 07, 2014, 12:42 AM

    The elephant example? Are you taking about the blind men in a room with an elephant describing it by touch?
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #10 - July 07, 2014, 12:49 AM

    Lilyesque,

    I do not know what you mean by picking words that have a similar rhythm and then inserting them into the gaps.

    Can you please clarify?


    So if you have a sentence 'He pops down to the shops' you could replace 'He' with 'She', 'Pops' with 'Hops', 'Down' with 'Around' and 'Shops' with 'Cops'. To make 'She hops around to the cops'. A similar rhythm, but different meaning. 
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #11 - July 07, 2014, 01:07 AM

    Regarding Pascal's wager vis-a-vis Islam: I'd rather spend eternity in Hell than suffer in the Heaven of a juvenile, myopic sadist like Allah.
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #12 - July 07, 2014, 01:13 AM

    ^^^ True dat'!
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #13 - July 07, 2014, 01:24 AM

    Arabic is a human language so inimitable is just an argument from incredibility. As Arabic is a human language it is entirely possible for any human with knowledge of this language to have created the Quran without divine aid. This is no more unique than someone creating a masterpiece in English, Latin, French, etc. We do assign the concept of inimitable to art work all the time. In fact there is a whole profession dedicated to this field. Yet we do not assign a divine nature to art as people do with the Quran.

    The issue with inimitable is that Muslims are the judges. Now since inimitable is part of religious doctrine very few will ever admit if someone matches or surpasses this standard. Also I have to point of there are a number of examples on this forum in which someone created a Sura, presented it to Muslims and these people thought it was from the Quran. Only when told it was not did they reject the challenge to inimitable doctrine. These people proved that this challenge is doctrine only.

    I could also point out that figures such as Moses are not historical fact but mythology. Moses is largely rejected in archaeology, my field, and assumed as a narrative created later. Much like Uncle Sam of America. Now putting aside inimitable arguments. If a text uses myth to justify it claims than by default this is not from divine origin but merely great fiction mixed with non-fiction.  

    Also I have to point out Islamic scholars are theologians, not critical scholarship. Much like Biblical scholars which are theologians. These scholars already hold the view that Islam is correct and are unable to challenge their bias. Much like some "scholars" assume a young earth, creationism, etc. When scholarship is done in a secular environment progress is made. When done in a religious one it is only done to confirm their presupposition.


    Can you please provide links to these suras in English which have successfully imitated the quran?
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #14 - July 07, 2014, 02:05 AM

    Here is one example http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16329.0

    In the search box try searching for Quran challenge, or Sura like it. You will find many examples. I am sure other members could provide examples as well. As I already stated it is an argument from incredibility so there is no need, in my mind, for entertaining such a challenge as valid.


    Just in case you missed it in the other thread.
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #15 - July 07, 2014, 07:49 AM

    it doesn't matter whether we can produce something 'like' the quran.
    We can produce the quran itself. Muhammed did not produce something 'like' the quran. He produced the quran, and book publishers produce this by the million.

    The quran is one of the many combinations and permutations of Arabic words.  We can produce all logical combinations and permutations, and the quran is one of them. Even a computer can do it by randomly assorting words (i've actually made a program that does it).

    If this hypothetical book 'like' the quran is a miracle, then I challenge Allah to produce it. Then we shall see. Instead, he produced the quran, and it isn't very good.
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #16 - July 07, 2014, 08:02 AM

    Islam requires sincere belief, and pascal's wager cannot produce it. Pascal's wager at best argues that it is safer to believe in god, but it doesn't actually give a reason to do so. Allah the all knowing, wont be fooled by a person 'believing' just to cover his ass. He is not  a very big fan of these munafiqun at all.
    Pascals wager is officially an appeal to consequence fallacy. I think it has no use.
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #17 - July 07, 2014, 08:15 AM

    Can you please provide links to these suras in English which have successfully imitated the quran?

    what actually do you mean successfully imitation of a statement , or a book  Radon123?  what is that you are looking in that  successfully imitation?

    for .e.g. Read this of Hassan

    Quote
    ❀❀❀❀ Surat of the Chicken ❀❀❀❀


    In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent the Merciful,

    1. Faa' Qaaf
    2. Verily, We created the chicken a (wonderful) creation,
    3. And We boiled the eggs, a boiling,
    4. And We sent with thunder, lightening
    5. And We made the air fresh
    6. As for he who denies our signs, We shall hang him a hanging,
    7. And choke him, a choking
    8. 
As for he who knocks on the door of a slut, a knocking
    9. Then commits in her house, a screwing
    10. We shall burn him in the fire, a burning
    11. Indeed our punishment it is the abiding
    12. Indeed our enemy he is the most wretched.
    13. For I swear by the glitter of the Dinar
    14. And I swear by the braying of the Ass
    15. Indeed I am Allah the Creator, the Conqueror
    16. So obey me and do not be of the unbelievers
    17. And fear a day when no Dirham will benefit nor will a Dollar
    18. The day the unbelievers will be cast into the fire
    19. And they shall not be able to bear it nor escape
    20. As for those who feared their lord, they are the best
    21. They shall have gardens under which run rivers
    22. And crates of whiskey and dancing girls with no veil


    How about this Surah Beer by Happy Murtad?

    Quote
    1. All praises are due to Ninkasi, Goddess of Beer.

    2. The Beloved, The Dear

    3. Bringer of joy to those far and near.

    4. In YOUR name do we drink and for YOUR sake do we cheer.

    5. Raise us to your Highest Tier.

    6. The Tier of those who remain coherent when wasted.

    7. Not of those who waiver when wasted, nor of those who veer.


    Do they not imitate Quran linguistic structure??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #18 - July 07, 2014, 08:26 AM

    Hmm  I didn't realize this .. I wrote a surah on Happy Murtad and He wrote one one me..

    Quote
    In the name of Allah , the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.
    Guide us to the straight path to hell
    Ta, Ha. ..Alif, Lam, Meem...
    Ohyeee happymurtad,  that is lie you say "that I ruin every thread"
    this lie is similar to what bible preachers preach
    “It is not for God to take a son unto Him.”
    “They do blaspheme who say: “God is Christ the son of Mary.”
    They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a trinity:
     for there is no God except one God
    Kaf, Ha, Ya, 'Ayn, Sad.
     "O Messenger yeezevee"  announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and Ruin some threads
     if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message.

     

    Surat Yeezevee  by Happy M..

    Quote
    1.   Ignore! In the name of your lord who reveals
    2.   (Who) reveals unto thee exactly how he feels
    3.   Ignore Yeezevee! And cause him no offense
    4.   For his posts simply do not make any sense
    5.   Have ye seen how Yeezevee has transgressed
    6.   As he vandalizes threads like a pest
    7.   With his posts that are lacking in eloquence
    8.   And his random videos of no relevance
    9.   Nay, if he does not cease, he shall be put on a permanent ignore
    10.   An ignore that will block his posts for ever and ever more!
    11.   Nay! Pay no attention to him, disregard his comments, and act like he does not exist

    How about that ? they look and sound as good as what is there in Quran..

    Quote


    Only fools that can not use commonsense consider such sonnets, songs, prose. poetry as miracles.. Then  What is not miracle?  every sound out of every biological species is a miracle .. Here is the lyre bird imitating

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjE0Kdfos4Y

    that is a fantastic miracle of nature through biological evolution

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #19 - July 07, 2014, 08:31 AM

    You might find this interesting:

    Betting on infinity, by TheraminTrees & QualiaSoup
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7yUPwdU

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #20 - July 07, 2014, 08:33 AM

    I suggest you read around the forum. Happymurtad has actually made some really fine suwar from our very own murtad quran. There are some excellent du'aa for murtads as well, just can't remember where they're posted. Saying this, I mean that they are as good as the quran linguistically speaking, or Mo's "miraculous" language skills you find described in the quran. Then depending on who is reading it, the meaning might appeal to you or not. And that's the point.  My daughter couldn't hear the difference between soorat al asr and "soorat al dhuhr", she thought it was some new quran she hadn't heard before. And I remember reciting a really silly and simplistic verse (I can't remember if it was al baqarah or al maaidah)  that my ex couldn't believe was quran, "it doesn't sound like quran". It's because simple and stupid word and sentence constructions are all over the quran, but they are "ignored" because you get some beautiful rhyming here and there.

    There are many threads highlighting the quran's scientific inaccuracies, and the thread "what Islam got wrong, or fuck up" (started by me in The Lounge, I think) also shows the many many silly and idiotic practices within Islam. Read it, and if you find some "arguments" against them, post and I'll discuss it with you there.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #21 - July 07, 2014, 08:55 AM

    [ oops 
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #22 - July 07, 2014, 04:46 PM

    I'm honestly baffled by the whole concept of the Qur'an's "inimitability," as the Qur'an is generally such a repetitive mess.  Much of the Qur'an in its various canonical readings is an incomprehensible muddle of garbled and misunderstood text. 

    Although I think he was wrong on certain points, Noldeke's assessment of Qur'anic style has hardly been bettered -- the Qur'an's style was always a mess, and even Muslims did not come up with the idea that it was some stylistic masterpiece until very late, centuries after Mohammed's death, and that was only by imitating Christian influence after intensive debate within Islam: 

    http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Noeldeke/quran.htm

    "The unbounded reverence of the Muslims for the Qur'an reaches its climax in the dogma (which appeared at an early date through the influence of the Christian doctrine of the eternal Word of God) that this book, as the divine Word, i.e., thought, is immanent in God, and consequently "eternal" and "uncreated." That dogma has been accepted by almost all Muhammadans since the beginning of the third century. Some theologians did indeed protest against it with great energy; it was, in fact, too preposterous to declare that a book composed of unstable words and letters, and full of variants, was absolutely divine. But what were the distinctions and sophisms of the theologians for, if they could not remove such contradictions, and convict their opponents of heresy?"
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #23 - July 07, 2014, 04:50 PM

    By the way, I also wonder how people can argue the Qur'an is inimitable when we now have in our possession a truly "other" Qur'an, the lower Sanaa palimpsest, which has many different words, omissions, and additions, and yet is just as much a "Qur'an."

    In fact some of the earliest Qur'an manuscripts show that rhyme schemes were later added by scribes to the Qur'an, and then (in the orthodox readings subsumed under the Uthmanic tradition) they were lost during the verse break editing process.  This is because the script was so defective that the readings were unstable, which is why we have variant Qur'an readings.

    What is truly "inimitable" about the Qur'an is the mass of much later Muslim tradition, theology, and exegesis that have been imposed onto this marginally understood mass of awkwardly compiled texts.
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #24 - July 07, 2014, 05:17 PM

    I'm honestly baffled by the whole concept of the Qur'an's "inimitability," as the Qur'an is generally such a repetitive mess.  Much of the Qur'an in its various canonical readings is an incomprehensible muddle of garbled and misunderstood text. ........

    if you give too much importance to fools, they  will baffle you with silliest statements from Quran or for that matter from any book that they believe it as word of allah.. god whatever..

    you can see that from these nonsense words..  Mock Them and Move on

    Ta Seen Meem.[Al Quran ; 28:1]

    Ta Seen, [Al Quran ; 27:1]

    Ta Seen Meem [Al Quran ; 26:1]

    Ta Ha. [Al Quran ; 20:1]

    Kaf Ha Ya Ein Sad. [Al Quran ; 19:1]

    Alif Lam Ra. [Al Quran ; 15:1]

    Alif Lam Ra. [Al Quran ; 14:1]

    Alif, Lam, Mim, Ra. [Al Quran ; 13:1]

    Alif Lam Ra.[Al Quran ; 12:1]

    Alif Lam Ra.[Al Quran ; 11:1]

    Alif Lam Ra.[Al Quran ; 10:1]

    Alif Lam Meem Sad.[Al Quran ; 7:1]

    Alif Lam Meem.[Al Quran ; 3:1]

    Alif Lam Meem.[Al Quran ; 2:1]  


    And fools consider them as the signs of a  Book of wisdom..  Mock Them & Move On...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #25 - July 07, 2014, 05:43 PM

    Alif Lam Ra is an amazing sounding name!

    Does it mean anything in Aramaic?
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #26 - July 07, 2014, 05:59 PM

    Alif, Lam, Mim, Ra.

    They seem to possibly be letters of the alphabet?

    Alif

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph

    Lam

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C4%81m#Arabic_l.C4.81m

    Mim

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mem

    Ra

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EF%BA%AD#Arabic_r.C4.81.CA.BE
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #27 - July 07, 2014, 08:00 PM

    Yep, the "mysterious letters" are one of my favorite responses to people claiming the Qur'an is 'clear.'  Whatever 'clear' means, it plainly couldn't mean 'comprehensible' or 'in a known language,' because much of the Qur'an is self-evidently neither.  And this, I suppose, does make it fairly unusual, though again not inimitable.

    There still are no good scholarly theories as to what the mysterious letters are, and Muslim tradition by its own admission has no viable explanation.  I personally think it's one of two things:  Either they are traces of some form of organization of the written texts prior to their compilation in today's Qur'an, which got mistakenly included as part of the larger text, or they are signs indicating how the Qur'an texts were to be used as part of a larger liturgy, which later Muslim tradition no longer knew about (which is Luxenberg's theory).  Both hypotheses are consistent with the fact that they almost entirely precede Meccan surahs.
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #28 - July 07, 2014, 08:02 PM


    what is the point of this allah god putting  some alphabets together ? and adults singing  those  meaningless alphabets in mosques?

    what is this  nonsense   is allah learning alphabets?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DpJ75-hQ-4..

    idiots...

    Anyways going back to Pascal's Wager

    what that  French philosopher, mathematician  physicist Blaise Pascal who happened to be a believer in some parts of bible   said was.this
    Quote
    " It is not possible to prove or disprove that God exists. Therefore, it is better to bet that God exists. If God existed, and the person believed in god, he would be rewarded (with happiness forever); if the person did not believe, he would be punished (with what is called eternal damnation). If God did not exist it would make no difference. For this reason, it would be better to believe in God, Pascal said. Indeed, Pascal strongly believed in this ideal."


    That is very little to do with these silly cave dwelling fools who wrote some mambo-jumbo  of  some 1000 pages STUPID RULES to humanity some 1000/s of years ago  ..

    Off course when I say cave dwelling fools., I am comparing those people with present intelligence of  21st century..  Even assuming  Pascal was right,  I will question and I must have the right to question  those  Pascal's words that I crossed out..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Pascal's Wager and Quranic inimitability
     Reply #29 - July 07, 2014, 08:16 PM

    Yep, the "mysterious letters" are one of my favorite responses to people claiming the Qur'an is 'clear.'  Whatever 'clear' means, it plainly couldn't mean 'comprehensible' or 'in a known language,' because much of the Qur'an is self-evidently neither.  And this, I suppose, does make it fairly unusual, though again not inimitable.

    There still are no good scholarly theories as to what the mysterious letters are, and Muslim tradition by its own admission has no viable explanation.  I personally think it's one of two things:  Either they are traces of some form of organization of the written texts prior to their compilation in today's Qur'an, which got mistakenly included as part of the larger text, or they are signs indicating how the Qur'an texts were to be used as part of a larger liturgy, which later Muslim tradition no longer knew about (which is Luxenberg's theory).  Both hypotheses are consistent with the fact that they almost entirely precede Meccan surahs.


    Interesting!
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