Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
February 15, 2025, 04:00 PM

New Britain
February 14, 2025, 11:13 AM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
February 14, 2025, 08:00 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
February 13, 2025, 10:07 PM

Muslim grooming gangs sti...
February 13, 2025, 08:20 PM

German nationalist party ...
February 13, 2025, 01:15 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
February 13, 2025, 01:08 PM

Russia invades Ukraine
February 13, 2025, 11:01 AM

Islam and Science Fiction
February 11, 2025, 11:57 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
February 06, 2025, 03:13 PM

Gaza assault
February 05, 2025, 10:04 AM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
February 03, 2025, 09:25 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Scientific laws, Allah, metaphysical/miraculous claims of religion(s)

 (Read 3131 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Scientific laws, Allah, metaphysical/miraculous claims of religion(s)
     OP - July 08, 2014, 12:33 AM

    Hello,

    First and foremost, I want to say that I am sorry if I am overwhelming my co-members of this forum with all of my questions, as I have no intention of doing so.  Rather, I do so to have my thoughts clarified.

    I have been thinking recently, and I have been wondering about the concept of religious miracles and Allah and the scientific laws of nature being compatible with each other.  Like is the concept of there being universal scientific laws and there existing perhaps of the possibility of breaking these laws in accordance with divine will even possible?  Is it possible for scientific laws of nature to be broken, even by a divine will?  Take for example the Quranic story of Moses throwing down his staff and it turning into a snake by the will of allah, couldn't allah just miraculously have transformed the staff, physically and chemically, into a snake because that is who he is, allah?

    Whenever I used to bring up these questions to other muslims, I typically got the answer of that "Allah can do it, because he is Allah, and if he wasn't able to do it, then he wouldn't be Allah."  I know that this is an example of circular logic, but that is what they always used to say to me.  Whether I would ask how Noah would be able to fit two pairs of every animal into the Ark or why Allah would ban music or demand that men grow their beards, I would always get the answer of, well Allah is Allah, so He is able to do it, or in the latter case I would always get the answer of, well Allah is Allah, He is the Lord, and we are not allowed to argue with Allah, we only have to obey, because He is the Lord and He is the one in charge.  This would apply to other stuff too, like sometimes I would bring up the concept of homosexuality being biologically inherent, and I would get the answer of something like, well Allah has decreed that homosexuality is a sin, so even if He (Allah) made homosexuality to be biologically inherent, we still have to forbid homosexuality because that is what Allah has demanded, and we are obliged to obey him because He is our Lord and thus He is the one in charge.

    I am just very confused and I need rationality...

    Thank you for hearing me out.
  • Scientific laws, Allah, metaphysical/miraculous claims of religion(s)
     Reply #1 - July 08, 2014, 12:38 AM

    For a start, you may want to have a glance at these threads.  http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?action=profile;u=6208;sa=showTopics

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Re: Scientific laws, Allah, metaphysical/miraculous claims of religion(s)
     Reply #2 - July 08, 2014, 08:36 AM

    Hello,

    First and foremost, I want to say that I am sorry if I am overwhelming my co-members of this forum with all of my questions, as I have no intention of doing so.  Rather, I do so to have my thoughts clarified.

    I have been thinking recently, and I have been wondering about the concept of religious miracles and Allah and the scientific laws of nature being compatible with each other.  Like is the concept of there being universal scientific laws and there existing perhaps of the possibility of breaking these laws in accordance with divine will even possible?  Is it possible for scientific laws of nature to be broken, even by a divine will?  Take for example the Quranic story of Moses throwing down his staff and it turning into a snake by the will of allah, couldn't allah just miraculously have transformed the staff, physically and chemically, into a snake because that is who he is, allah?

    Whenever I used to bring up these questions to other muslims, I typically got the answer of that "Allah can do it, because he is Allah, and if he wasn't able to do it, then he wouldn't be Allah."  I know that this is an example of circular logic, but that is what they always used to say to me.  Whether I would ask how Noah would be able to fit two pairs of every animal into the Ark or why Allah would ban music or demand that men grow their beards, I would always get the answer of, well Allah is Allah, so He is able to do it, or in the latter case I would always get the answer of, well Allah is Allah, He is the Lord, and we are not allowed to argue with Allah, we only have to obey, because He is the Lord and He is the one in charge.  This would apply to other stuff too, like sometimes I would bring up the concept of homosexuality being biologically inherent, and I would get the answer of something like, well Allah has decreed that homosexuality is a sin, so even if He (Allah) made homosexuality to be biologically inherent, we still have to forbid homosexuality because that is what Allah has demanded, and we are obliged to obey him because He is our Lord and thus He is the one in charge.

    I am just very confused and I need rationality...

    Thank you for hearing me out.


    Richard Swinburne argues that miracles are incorrigible natural laws. That is to say, our picture of what constitutes natural laws is incomplete and what may appear to us to be a violation of nature may actually be an unknown variable.

    Of course, such a view is predicated on a (primarily) unfalsifiable metaphysical premise — not necessarily that a god exists, but that the uimaginal (that is to say imagination of collective human consciousness — or psychic metamorphmosis is reality imported from the realm of the internal onto the realm of the external. Undoubtedly there is cross-fertilisation between the internal experiences of a human organism and how it relates to the tribe as a whole, and vice-versa, but ultimately our references for functioning in society largely take place on the plane of the external as we can falsify on said plane. This is not to say that Swinburne's view is correct or incorrect, but it needs hermeneutical analysis. Can we contend that the concept of a natural law objectively exists? After all, it is a human construction. Furthermore, can we contend that (a... violation) of a human construct is objective insofar as the human construct possesses an antithesis, insofar as x=0 rather than X being tantamount to X-1?
  • Scientific laws, Allah, metaphysical/miraculous claims of religion(s)
     Reply #3 - July 08, 2014, 08:42 AM

    Natural laws can be violated. It's possible. But it is a silly logic to prove the existence of God IMHO.
  • Scientific laws, Allah, metaphysical/miraculous claims of religion(s)
     Reply #4 - July 08, 2014, 08:57 AM

    ^Like?
  • Scientific laws, Allah, metaphysical/miraculous claims of religion(s)
     Reply #5 - July 08, 2014, 09:25 AM

    the current crop of dawah peddlers have redefined a miracle to have no real connection natural law. They have felt this necessary in order to argue that the language of the quran is a miracle.

    They have taken their lead from William Lane Craig, who, along with other theologians, have devoted their time to inventing new ways to sidestep, or obfuscate the obvious problems with practically all concepts in theology. They understand that if a natural law is universal, then it cannot by definition be violated, and there are no miracles. So some redefine natural law to be something else. Sort of universal, but not quite, and others redefine miracle to not 'really' be a violation.

    I don't think there is much point worrying about it. These are problems for theologians and the worldview that they have already decided is true. If religious definitions dont really make sense, then thats just one more reason not to be religious. It isn't your job to reconcile nonsense.

  • Scientific laws, Allah, metaphysical/miraculous claims of religion(s)
     Reply #6 - July 08, 2014, 11:17 AM

    Sorry Descent I don't have any proof. But I read in one place and here that it is possible since a particular law of the Earth may not be applicable elsewhere.

    There are exceptional to every cases. So it can be possible. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
  • Scientific laws, Allah, metaphysical/miraculous claims of religion(s)
     Reply #7 - July 08, 2014, 11:31 AM

    scientific laws are descriptions of how things behave. We have not found exception to these descriptions and we call them laws. It doesn't mean that there can be no exceptions. The universe is not obeying any actual laws. The universe simply exists, and it has properties. Those properties result in behaviour that appears to be uniform and therefore open to investigation by science.  We call the mathematical descriptions of this behaviour 'laws', and like everything else in science, this word confuses the religious. It gives the impression for example, that light is not 'allowed' to travel faster than 299,792 km per second. It won't actually get arrested if it does.

  • Scientific laws, Allah, metaphysical/miraculous claims of religion(s)
     Reply #8 - July 08, 2014, 03:53 PM

    ^Like?


    Big Bang cosmology states the "laws" of physics break down at the point of the singularity. So there are at least two models of physics, one for the current universe, one for the pre-Big Bang universe. One we have information on, the other we do not. Also Quantum Mechanics has knocked over classic physics so these laws are violated within our own universe.
  • Scientific laws, Allah, metaphysical/miraculous claims of religion(s)
     Reply #9 - July 08, 2014, 11:06 PM


    Pretty much. Physical laws are really mathematical descriptions of nature. Most having stood many rigorous experiments, they are accurate, reliable, and make very useful predictions. But remember they can also have a limited scope of applicability.

  • Scientific laws, Allah, metaphysical/miraculous claims of religion(s)
     Reply #10 - July 12, 2014, 12:43 AM

    Big Bang cosmology states the "laws" of physics break down at the point of the singularity. So there are at least two models of physics, one for the current universe, one for the pre-Big Bang universe. One we have information on, the other we do not. Also Quantum Mechanics has knocked over classic physics so these laws are violated within our own universe.

    Components of classical Physics are not wrong, rather they are incomplete and better regarded as approximations with limited applicability. Take Newtonian mechanics, they are very accurate when v<<<<<c and we're talking about macroscopic objects.
  • Scientific laws, Allah, metaphysical/miraculous claims of religion(s)
     Reply #11 - July 12, 2014, 06:09 AM

    Many assume that the system is complete enough to make predication beyond the scope and limitation of said systems. No just hypothesis but complete conclusions. They are creating conclusions many experts were never do. I am just taking the position that these conclusions are absolute is a mistake. Besides there is also the concept of Space-Time from GR which one needs to address in any argument for God. The answer of God creates more question than it solves.
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »