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Theme Changer

 Topic: First comes love, then comes marriage...

 (Read 25264 times)
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  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #30 - July 31, 2014, 07:38 PM

    Welcome parrot

    I can't say much more than what's already been said, but, it seems you have a strong standing so good luck with whatever you choose  Smiley

    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
     Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
     Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
     Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God." - Epicurus
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #31 - July 31, 2014, 07:47 PM

    Thank you for the support, Naz. And Qtian, who I missed on the previous page.
     bunny
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #32 - August 01, 2014, 05:34 AM

    Quod Sum Eris, thank you for your understanding. I read through that entire topic, and it was interesting to see how I would deal with a situation similar to mine from a third person point of view.

    Perhaps I feel like my situation differs, however, because I have never considered publicly renouncing Islam. My best case scenario (and the one I'm currently living) is that I am a nonpracticing Muslim. It will not bother me to bring children up with knowledge of Islam, nor will I keep them from learning Arabic, or celebrating Eid. I cannot dissociate from that aspect of my culture, it is literally unavoidable unless I decide to leave my family behind with my Islam. Maybe I am just fooling myself into thinking there is a difference...


    I understand what you're saying perfectly. I come from a christian background not an islamic one but it's the same with me to one extent or another. The gothic architecture, the music, the art and poetry it's inspired. I couldn't do without it, I really couldn't. At this very moment I'm listening to a song retelling the biblical story of Lucifer's (Satan's) fall from grace from his own point of view. It's an incredibly powerful song and the lyrics are so poetic. Quite frankly, there are parts of the christian culture I enjoy, but what parts I take are purely of my own choosing.

    I also completely understand you not wanting to keep any children you may one day have from celebrating Eid. There's no reason whatsoever to not take that tradition and make it your own. It belongs to you as much as it does to anyone else. Actually, I've just remembered a post I made a while ago, let me see if I can find it...

    Atheism as a religion is not Hamza's concept. Nor is the word scientism. It is, like everything else he sprouts, something someone else has came up with.

    It's not really surprising that atheists will keep some rituals and traditions like Christmas. most people in this part of the world have fond memories of Christmas as children and want to give their own children that sense of excitement and childhood happiness. As ex-muslims become more mainstream and accepted I have no doubt many will still celebrate Eid in some form or another, just as I'm sure those people who grew up hindu but left the faith will have fond childhood memories of Diwali and seek to pass that on to their own children.

    It can't be denied that as a species we like our traditions and rituals. Whether or not this is a natural aspect of humanity or something fundamentally ingrained into us over thousands and thousands and thousands of years of evolving cultures and societies, I don't know.

    I'm not sure if you're aware, but a year ago there was an atheist church in London (google Sunday Assembly if you're curious). It was quite a hit, and last I heard it was spreading across the UK and even going international. The appeal of it, in my opinion, is the same as any appealing social setting. To feel you have support, to be around like-minded friendly people and to appreciate life. Fair enough. Humans naturally feel a need to connect.

    The truth of the matter is, we've always taken the standards of the time we live in and made it our own. Consider marriage for an example. A long time ago in the western world, marriage was about religion, money, family politics and so on. Love wasn't a part of it. You did your duty to god and clan and if you were lucky you could have a good relationship with your husband/wife, though this wasn't the primary motive. People often dreamed of it being otherwise, but it was considered something childish. You grow up and you do your duty.

    Nowadays it's different. I was born and raised in a culture that views marriage as a personal act, a commitment of two people, and it's all about love. It's the reason most of the western world is fine with gay marriage. We don't view it as being solely for family, or religion, or politics, or procreation, we view it as a very personal thing between two people. And we view it as an act of love.

    So what's wrong with taking something and making it my own? What's wrong with Christmas lights and presents? What's wrong with an atheist getting married but writing their own vows instead of religious vows? What's wrong with pledging themselves to each other and promising each other rather than promising a god they don't believe in? What's wrong with having a funeral so your loved ones have a chance to grieve and find comfort in each other and say goodbye but making it your own rather than some Priest talking shit you never believed in saying you're going to a place everyone knows full well you didn't believe exists?

    I'm very happy to take traditions I like and make them my own. Likewise, I'm also happy to create my own. I'll also abandon the ones I don't care for. This isn't a new thing. It's always been this way. That's why societies change.


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #33 - August 01, 2014, 07:19 AM

    Quote
    I'm very happy to take traditions I like and make them my own. Likewise, I'm also happy to create my own. I'll also abandon the ones I don't care for. This isn't a new thing. It's always been this way. That's why societies change.


    You got it absolutely right. Thank you for sharing this!
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #34 - August 01, 2014, 07:23 AM

    Glad you like. Smiley

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #35 - August 01, 2014, 07:24 AM

    ^me too, i still go to beautiful churches, listen to mass and light candles etc, part of my past as a roman catholic, i would enjoy going to a mosque too if the women could walk in the main hall without getting stared at, i do christmas with my mum and would like to do eid..
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #36 - August 01, 2014, 07:28 AM

    Fun.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #37 - August 01, 2014, 09:32 AM

    I agree!
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #38 - August 01, 2014, 08:20 PM

    Yesterday he tells me that the book he's currently reading has caused him to completely abandon his belief in a certain minority branch of Islam that he fully embraced some months ago after what he told me was a lifetime of questioning. So let's add Islamic History to the list of things that will shake him up. (Me: "So where does your heart lie now [in regards to religious beliefs]?" Him: "Well, I'm still Muslim.")  Goodness gracious.

    I told him I'd still love him even if he wanted to start whirling with the dervishes, so we'll see what happens from here! He has already proven to me that he is capable of critical thought, and that his religious identity is...fluid to say the least. I'm optimistic.


    It really sounds like he's got a decent head on his shoulders, and that he's thinking these things through on his own. It might help to just periodically talk it out with him, see what he's thinking, ask him which problems he has with whatever sect of Islam or if there's anything that he struggles with understanding/accepting about his beliefs. If he still thinks you are Muslim, he might even be hesitant to rock that boat for the same reasons you are even if he does start doubting Islam, so showing that you're genuinely interested and appreciative of his doubts or thought process might encourage him to keep mulling these things over and sharing them with you.

    I'm thinking you have a fine shot of working this out with him, even if he stays religious. You're both in love, you didn't marry no fool!  yes
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #39 - August 01, 2014, 10:25 PM

    Thanks for the support lua! I'm glad you think so too. I think we'll be able to pull this off. There are a couple of books pertaining to the history of religion that I've been eyeing anyways, maybe I'll buy them and put them in the path of his consumption.
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #40 - August 01, 2014, 10:28 PM

    Don't pressure him though. If there's no tension there's no need to inspire any. Let him arrive to his own conclusions of his own accord. Of course discuss the issues with him if and when theya rise out of normal conversation but if I found out my partner/wife was trying to manipulate  me one way or another my faith and trust in her would be greatly diminished.

    Is he forcing/pushing his ideology on to you?

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #41 - August 01, 2014, 10:53 PM

    Oh, no I wouldn't be forcing him. I'm getting them to read for myself, first and foremost. We commonly discuss what we're reading and learning with each other. I am very lax and encouraging with his "spiritual journey," if you will. And he's as hands-free as I am.
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #42 - August 08, 2014, 09:41 AM

    My heart hurts today.
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #43 - August 08, 2014, 09:51 AM

    What's up  :(

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #44 - August 08, 2014, 02:52 PM

    Why?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #45 - August 08, 2014, 06:46 PM

    I think he's on a religious high since returning to Sunni Islam, he says things like his imaan is increasing and sweetly asks that I teach our children to read Qur'an. Now that he's back, I think he feels that he can start spending time at the masjid again and has been going for isha some days, and is praying here and there at home.

    Usually his attempts at adhering to practices fall short and he abandons the prayer rug eventually... This time around I feel so heavy and afraid, I need to tell him what is going on, but I'm a coward. I am so afraid of ending my marriage.
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #46 - August 08, 2014, 06:49 PM

     far away hug So keeping your apostasy quite is something you no longer feel you can do?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #47 - August 08, 2014, 07:17 PM

    It could be the gloomy weather, but the idea of keeping quiet is making me feel particularly teary and upset today.  far away hug

  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #48 - August 08, 2014, 07:26 PM

    It could be the gloomy weather, but the idea of keeping quiet is making me feel particularly teary and upset today.  far away hug




    Where are you currently based um haraira?
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #49 - August 08, 2014, 07:32 PM

    I'm in eastern coast United States.
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #50 - August 08, 2014, 07:35 PM

    It could be the gloomy weather, but the idea of keeping quiet is making me feel particularly teary and upset today.  far away hug



    That's usually how it goes. Most people have a hard time lying. We want to be accepted, embraced and loved for who we are, not a fictional person we pretend to be.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #51 - August 08, 2014, 07:45 PM

    I'm in eastern coast United States.


    Ok. Good info to base any advice to you around. It is perfectly natural to just want to be who you are. At least there are no children yet in the marriage; it is perfectly up to you but ideally you should get out before that happens otherwise things could get even more messy than they are now.
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #52 - August 08, 2014, 07:52 PM

    That is very true. I am fortunate to not have to put on a complete show all the time, but it is exhausting to live this way for very long.

    I will never be able to shout of my apostasy from the mountaintops, but I can stay positive and slowly bridge the gap between the person I want to be and the person I'm stuck being right now. This hijab is coming off soon. I should be able to do that for myself, at least. /peptalk
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #53 - August 08, 2014, 10:24 PM

    Um huraira. You must tell him asap.

    The longer you leave it the more he'll feel that a) You've been taking him for a ride and treating him like a fool b) that you don't value the marriage as much as he does or c) that you yourself want to end the marriage and are using the apostasy as an excuse.

    My advice: on one of your good days speak to him about your beliefs. If you genuinely love him and want to remain married to him then let him know before hand via your actions. Do something such as talk to him about how happy he makes you and your plans now that you're married. Talk about the good old times and how you wish to add to the memories. Then, when you consider the time to be right, let him know that though you respect his religious beleifs, you don't share them. Be calm. Keep it short and sweet and allow him time to take it in.

    You must tell him. It's not fair on him. A marriage based on deceit is not worth it IME. It would seriously piss me off and I've been there, though not viz-a-viz apostasy.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #54 - August 09, 2014, 03:22 AM

    You're right...
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #55 - August 09, 2014, 12:51 PM

    Hello, just read your introduction and the comments. I am in a similar situation and I had started expressing my doubts and concerns to my husband. The approach that was suggested above by Jedi is almost exactly how I handled it - it worked out okay, as well as can be expected.

    Later on I told him, "I like to believe in a creator. It's confining it to a book that doesn't make sense to me."

    This was yesterday. I just had to do it. We are probably still going to go through some things now but the first hurdle is done. Tbh I think he had an inkling.

    Your husband sounds like he is willing to acknowledge that Islam is not as perfect as others would have us believe. A person can be good without religion and it sounds like he gets that aspect too - you are not defined by your Muslim-ness alone. This is what I think my husband realises, and why he sees us as still together despite this. Obviously I can't speak for your husband, but I wanted you to know it can be done.

    I feel for you, I really do. People here seem really supportive so you're in the right place. Good luck dear.


    Don't damn me when I speak my mind, 'cause silence isn't golden when I'm holding it inside. - Guns n' Roses

    3 koiraa 1 kissa <3
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #56 - August 09, 2014, 02:52 PM

    I think he's on a religious high since returning to Sunni Islam, he says things like his imaan is increasing and sweetly asks that I teach our children to read Qur'an. Now that he's back, I think he feels that he can start spending time at the masjid again and has been going for isha some days, and is praying here and there at home.

    Usually his attempts at adhering to practices fall short and he abandons the prayer rug eventually... This time around I feel so heavy and afraid, I need to tell him what is going on, but I'm a coward. I am so afraid of ending my marriage.



    I wouldn't necessarily agree that you'd be taking him for a ride or otherwise deceiving him by waiting until a good time to tell him. It's not like you lied to him when you got married and said you were a Muslim when you weren't. But people are dynamic, people change, even in marriages, and by changing your views you haven't done anything wrong. But you do recognize that you're in a particularly tough situation where that might mean the end of your relationship.

    Now, yes, like I've said before, and like I've done myself, if you take it slow and bide your time, you can break your apostasy easily to him and during a time when he's at a good place to accept it. However, at this point, considering your recent update, I do want to make sure it is really clear that you've done nothing wrong: you still accept him no matter what, you still love him, you're holding up your end of the marital bargain. It shouldn't be on you to groom him to do the same. It should be a given that he'd be willing to return your devotion, that's his job as your husband. If he doesn't love you enough to stick around despite the apostasy, even though you love him, it might be for the best, he might not be the right one for you to call your partner.

    You seem somewhat taken aback by his recent push to be more religious, and he seems to be backing out of the way you agreed to raise your hypothetical children, and you need to also know for yourself if, realistically, five years from now, ten years from now, you're going to still be okay with this. Are you always going to be giving him more and more slack and surrendering more of what you want to satisfy him, or will you be able to stand firm and claim your equal control in the relationship and in the rearing of your children if you so choose? Do you think he'd be able to withstand compromising like that, himself? With marriages where there is any significant disagreement on ideologies, this can be a huge issue, and it's much harder when one party thinks there's literally heaven and hell for him and his family riding on him getting his way.

    If my husband suddenly went back to Sunni Islam and threw everything that he's learned and discovered in the last year out the window, I know I'd be too shaken up to continue with him. Some people like to pretend that it can't happen, but I've known too many women who had their husbands suddenly become super religious later in life, and the women were the ones who suffered for it. Even women who still considered themselves Muslim sometimes found their marriage suddenly intolerable, but, like you, didn't want to leave the husband, or didn't want to risk losing their kids. And a few I've known have lost their kids, anyway.

    Jedi will be quick to say that these marriages can still work out and everything will go swimmingly, and that's true, they can, but you have to be comfortable and honest and sure, and he has to be comfortable and honest and sure, and you both have to be predictable to some degree and willing to compromise and honor the compromises you do make. Your recent update has me a little worried that this might not be the case, after all.

    Either way, you'll know what to do best. Good luck!  far away hug
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #57 - August 09, 2014, 04:38 PM

    Listen I can honestly say the first few questions he will ask are:

    1) How long have you been an atheist/apostate/had doubts?

    2) Why didn't you tell me this before?

    3) Who else have you been talking to?

    4) Why is it that you can talk to others about this and not me - th person who you married?

    5) Don't you trust me enough to tell me these things?

    Quote
    Jedi will be quick to say that these marriages can still work out and everything will go swimmingly, and that's true, they can, but you have to be comfortable and honest and sure, and he has to be comfortable and honest and sure, and you both have to be predictable to some degree and willing to compromise and honor the compromises you do make. Your recent update has me a little worried that this might not be the case, after all.


    I'm quick to point that in reality they can go either way and that depends upon 1) timing and 2) your approach.

    No one here said it is anyone's fault that they doubt their belief system but you are at fault if you say to your partner that you will be honest with them and are not. The longer you leave, the worst it will get. There's no denying this. It's not good to play with peoples emotions no matter to what extent you dissaprove of their belief system. 


    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #58 - August 09, 2014, 04:41 PM

    ^I honestly think there's a lot more that will go into it than those two things.

    Wasn't trying to say anyone is blaming her here, just thought that it's important with all this talk of what she can do and how she can do it, she remembers that she deserves to get the same kind of love she puts out back in return. At the end of the day, if he doesn't want to be with her or if he can't afford her the same level of affection, that's not because she did anything wrong/was deficient in some way. It just would not be a good fit, and she'd deserve better, anyway. I think with all relationships, that's the bottom line. You can't be happy always giving more than you get in return.
  • First comes love, then comes marriage...
     Reply #59 - September 10, 2014, 03:22 PM

    Thank you omena, lua, Jedi, and everyone who responded to me with words of support. Yesterday I was finally able to address this subject with my husband. I don't know if I did the best job communicating where I stand, but I feel reassured for now...

    I told him that I feel like I haven't been the best wife to him lately (there are a couple of other life issues that we have been dealing with), and I am scared of pushing him to his breaking point. I said that I haven't been very religious in a while, and I can see that he is getting closer to his "deen" while I continue to travel farther from it. I asked him if he could still see a future with me if I continued to move away from "the light." At this point I'm crying like a baby and it's a huge mess. I say that I love him and want to have a family with him one day, but I feel like I've deceived him because I am not the religious girl he married anymore, and I fear that he would not want his children raised with a mother who is not a strong female Muslim role model.

    I wish I could have kept a lid on the waterworks, but typing this up even now is getting me going again. While comforting me, he told me of course he sees a future with me and that he married me for reasons beyond my religiousness. He told me to "do my thing." He also basically implied that life is a journey, and this is just part of its ebb and flow, which reading between the lines I took to mean that there's no telling if I'll come back to Islam again.

    So that is where I am right now. I didn't renounce the existence of a God to him or anything, because I myself have not even come to terms with where my beliefs lie. I know that this conversation could have been more precise, but I didn't want to open grounds for a religious debate, and besides we have always kept our individual beliefs pretty personal from the beginning... I realize that I may need to address the issue again in the future and completely close the "Islam" door so he doesn't think it's just a phase... Did I mess up?
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