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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Math thread, Y or N?
  • Yes
  • No
  • Yes

 Topic: Could we get a Math section?

 (Read 41217 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 3 45 6 ... 8 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #90 - February 16, 2015, 08:02 PM

    Imo, start with the philosophy & history of mathematics (which is where my current interests are situated).

    Starting with the "why" and progressing to the "how" whets your appetite as opposed to jumping in the deep end without knowing how to swim.

    As for the "how", the following is one of the better textbooks for self teaching purposes: http://www.amazon.com/No-bullshit-guide-math-physics/dp/0992001005

    The author assumes no prior knowledge except a basic arithmetic ability, and builds up to more advanced topics.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #91 - February 16, 2015, 08:16 PM

    MATHS


    You're too late, the thread passed away earlier this week.
    Resuscitation attempts were made by myself but they were futile.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #92 - February 16, 2015, 09:08 PM

    No. Please! Don't die...! Math. MATH. MAAAAATH!!!! Come baaaaack  mysmilie_977

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #93 - February 16, 2015, 09:26 PM

    Imo, start with the philosophy & history of mathematics (which is where my current interests are situated).

    Starting with the "why" and progressing to the "how" whets your appetite as opposed to jumping in the deep end without knowing how to swim.

    As for the "how", the following is one of the better textbooks for self teaching purposes: http://www.amazon.com/No-bullshit-guide-math-physics/dp/0992001005

    The author assumes no prior knowledge except a basic arithmetic ability, and builds up to more advanced topics.

    Cheers for those suggestions, dude! Afro
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #94 - February 16, 2015, 09:31 PM

    I'm not so sure. The operations in mathematics are quite interesting if you do start to learn it concurrently. Learning the history & philosophy of mathematics does give you an idea of what it all means but is (I feel) fairly intuitive when you get into it especially if you get into the formal logic (propositional and predicate) side of mathematics. That is going knee deep into the hard stuff.

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #95 - February 18, 2015, 12:06 PM

    Quote
    but is (I feel) fairly intuitive when you get into it


    Interesting, my experience has been different from yours. I perceive somewhat of a tension between mathematics and a strict definition of intuition as the term can be used to imply independence from logical processes. For instance 2+2=4 follows from the natural numbers and addition. By its very nature, it is "true" in a way that intuitive things aren't. In other words, intuitive things tend to be tensed. If what you really meant was "mathematically intuitive", then please do ignore me and/or laugh at my pedantry.

    The more and more I get into it, the less intuitive mathematics feels to me. Intuition is a misnomer when we consider meta-mathematics and the paradoxes of naive set theory. I also went through a painful divorce with intuition, before realising that incompleteness doesn't actually diminish mathematics.

    I didn't mean to imply that one should neglect the operational side of mathematics. As someone who has had to pick up mathematics on the go, even though I'm more into logics these days, I feel that studying the history and philosophy of mathematics has made me more mathematically mature which in turn has helped me on the technical side.

    For me, knowing about the history of ZFC, peano axioms etc... makes learning set theory for instance, much more pleasurable.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #96 - February 18, 2015, 12:24 PM


    "I also went through a painful divorce with intuition, before realising that incompleteness doesn't actually diminish mathematics."
    ...................

    That doesn't sound right to me Qtian., Why do these two go together ..   intuition & incompleteness??

    For any given subject  either in Mathematics or in other fields ., I am of the opinion that they should not be put together..  and stop doing those painful divorce

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #97 - February 18, 2015, 12:36 PM

    Yeez, you have an extreme talent for reading what you want to read. "Mathematical intuition" does exist, but it should be qualified differently to the accepted and common notion of intuition.
    Otherwise, it's a category error in my opinion.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #98 - February 18, 2015, 12:42 PM

    ........... Yeez, you have an extreme talent for reading what you want to read. .................

     Cheesy   That is true., Often I modify what people write., write it my own way, read it and give them credit .

    Anyways.. I say by definition   intuition  is incompleteness., if it is complete it is no more intuition  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #99 - February 18, 2015, 12:45 PM

    *resists urge to further mock yeezevee*

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #100 - February 18, 2015, 12:55 PM

    *resists urge to further mock yeezevee*

    lol.........



    That mocking bird lives in Jungles .. and it lives in me.,  click it to watch . and  another name for yeezevee is  MB....   but what does MB means?? Muslim Brotherhood??

    So I love this initial complex nature of Markov Chains And I understand very little of such Mathematics. But I say they play fundamental role and are built in to bio-logic at every step of life  in  its evolutionary pathways..  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #101 - February 18, 2015, 01:11 PM

    Quote
    Markov Chains



    Go to Section 10.

    Quote
    https://class.coursera.org/modelthinking-006/lecture/preview

         10.1) Markov Models
        10.2) A Simple Markov Model
        10.3) Markov Model of Democratization
        10.4) Markov Convergence Theorem
        10.5) Exapting the Markov Model


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #102 - February 18, 2015, 01:20 PM

    Go to Section 10.

    thanks Qtian .,   that is a good one

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #103 - February 18, 2015, 01:22 PM

    Can you access the link properly?

    It might only work for me because I'm logged in. You should be taken to the "Model Thinking" course page.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #104 - February 18, 2015, 01:24 PM

    Can you see the link properly?

    It might only work for me because I'm logged in. You should be taken to the "Model Thinking" course page.

    it is working., i am casually  listening to  Scott page 10.1

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #105 - February 18, 2015, 01:25 PM

    Ok, have fun.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #106 - February 18, 2015, 03:43 PM

    An interesting article on modal & temporal logics.


    Quote
    Temporal logic is an approach to the semantics of expressions with tense, that is, expressions with qualifications of when. Some expressions, such as '2 + 2 = 4', are true at all times, while tensed expressions such as 'John is happy' are only true sometimes.

    In temporal logic, tense constructions are treated in terms of modalities, where a standard method for formalizing talk of time is to use two pairs of operators, one for the past and one for the future (P will just mean 'it is presently the case that P'). For example:

        FP : It will sometimes be the case that P
        GP : It will always be the case that P
        PP : It was sometime the case that P
        HP : It has always been the case that P

    There are then at least three modal logics that we can develop. For example, we can stipulate that,
    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Or we can trade these operators to deal only with the future (or past). For example,

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    or,

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    The operators F and G may seem initially foreign, but they create normal modal systems. Note that FP is the same as ¬G¬P. We can combine the above operators to form complex statements. For example,
    PP → □PP says (effectively), Everything that is past and true is necessary.

    It seems reasonable to say that possibly it will rain tomorrow, and possibly it won't; on the other hand, since we can't change the past, if it is true that it rained yesterday, it probably isn't true that it may not have rained yesterday. It seems the past is "fixed", or necessary, in a way the future is not. This is sometimes referred to as accidental necessity. But if the past is "fixed", and everything that is in the future will eventually be in the past, then it seems plausible to say that future events are necessary too.

    Similarly, the problem of future contingents considers the semantics of assertions about the future: is either of the propositions 'There will be a sea battle tomorrow', or 'There will not be a sea battle tomorrow' now true? Considering this thesis led Aristotle to reject the principle of bivalence for assertions concerning the future.

    Additional binary operators are also relevant to temporal logics, q.v. Linear Temporal Logic.

    Versions of temporal logic can be used in computer science to model computer operations and prove theorems about them. In one version, ◇P means "at a future time in the computation it is possible that the computer state will be such that P is true"; □P means "at all future times in the computation P will be true". In another version, ◇P means "at the immediate next state of the computation, P might be true"; □P means "at the immediate next state of the computation, P will be true". These differ in the choice of Accessibility relation. (P always means "P is true at the current computer state".) These two examples involve nondeterministic or not-fully-understood computations; there are many other modal logics specialized to different types of program analysis. Each one naturally leads to slightly different axioms.


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #107 - February 18, 2015, 10:15 PM

    Interesting, my experience has been different from yours. I perceive somewhat of a tension between mathematics and a strict definition of intuition as the term can be used to imply independence from logical processes. For instance 2+2=4 follows from the natural numbers and addition. By its very nature, it is "true" in a way that intuitive things aren't. In other words, intuitive things tend to be tensed. If what you really meant was "mathematically intuitive", then please do ignore me and/or laugh at my pedantry.

    The more and more I get into it, the less intuitive mathematics feels to me. Intuition is a misnomer when we consider meta-mathematics and the paradoxes of naive set theory. I also went through a painful divorce with intuition, before realising that incompleteness doesn't actually diminish mathematics.

    I didn't mean to imply that one should neglect the operational side of mathematics. As someone who has had to pick up mathematics on the go, even though I'm more into logics these days, I feel that studying the history and philosophy of mathematics has made me more mathematically mature which in turn has helped me on the technical side.

    For me, knowing about the history of ZFC, peano axioms etc... makes learning set theory for instance, much more pleasurable.

    I probably won't post on this thread for much longer as I'm reducing my activity on the forum. It was nice meeting you, though I do wish that you had joined earlier as we could have had some good discussions.


    That's understandable and don't worry! I took a critical thinking approach to it all, and yes the different forms of logic (informal to mathematical) do make for an interesting read and yes I did mean intuitive with the basis set being "mathematical logic" at that point. I guess my assumption here is everyone who reads mathematics forms a bijection between the operation and the appropriate logic but then this may not be the case as you did well point out! Learning different elements like Axiom of Choice, etc. and their implications in the field of logic does indeed help one to understand set theory better (and vice versa!) so I do see where you are coming from.

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #108 - February 18, 2015, 10:21 PM

    An interesting article on modal & temporal logics.




    That is all really fascinating! I do wonder if it is just assigning extra variables to the current understanding of classical logic or could in fact already be defined using the definitions in classical logic (need to check associativity, distributivity, etc.) - though if not (I haven't given it enough thought) then it would be interesting to see if it can extend quantum logic too! That would be very interesting considering in quantum mechanics we have ideas such as time evolution.

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #109 - February 18, 2015, 10:42 PM

    Are you familiar with paraconsistent logics?

    They attempt to be inconsistency tolerant.

    For example, a paraconsistent logic might disallow (6) in this case. It's very interesting stuff even though I've only recently discovered it.




    The end result is that ex falso quodlibet (logical explosion) doesn't occur, unlike in classical logic.



    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #110 - February 18, 2015, 10:51 PM

    .

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #111 - February 18, 2015, 11:10 PM

    Are you familiar with paraconsistent logics?

    They attempt to be inconsistency tolerant.

    For example, a paraconsistent logic might disallow (6) in this case. It's very interesting stuff even though I've only recently discovered it.

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    The end result is that ex falso quodlibet (logical explosion) doesn't occur, unlike in classical logic.





    Admittedly I have little knowledge of the logic side - I was into the pure analysis side so the logics I didn't approach too much. I can understand it since I have been exposed to some forms (ie propositional and predicate logic) but I don't have much knowledge of it. So you can be the sensei and I'll be the student Wink

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #112 - February 18, 2015, 11:12 PM

    I'll elaborate when I next log on /feel like posting at length Tongue

    For now (or forever?), farewell.

    But the gist of it is that the following sort of inference:

    If one claims A and ~A one can logically derive any conclusion B,  Is valid within classical logic.

    The image I posted is a proof theoretic argument from classical logic.

    I.e.  If God exists and God does not exist then all CEMB members are fake ex-muslims.

    Paraconsistent logics tell the above sort of reasoning to fuck off.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #113 - February 18, 2015, 11:18 PM

    No! Not forever! Please do not say forever! We still have soooooooo much to discuss! I think most people did not get the symbolic logic you were using, asking you to transfer to standard formal logic (ie sentences without symbols!) It was unfortunate! And yes what you said makes complete sense (or paraconsistent sense :p) though I do wonder what the applications are!

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #114 - February 18, 2015, 11:24 PM

    Quote
    though I do wonder what the applications are!


    There's quite a few, computer science is an obvious one. Science itself has built paraconsistent logics in order to explain theories.

    Applications to physics:

    http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/1566/1/CosKraPATTY.pdf

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #115 - February 18, 2015, 11:36 PM

    Ah I see, very interesting! I got through the first 2 or 3 pages which gave a nice introduction to the topic (including your given example). I do wish to dive deeper into logics now, its rekindled my love for the field! I wish I had more time on my hands...

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #116 - February 19, 2015, 10:26 AM

    Imo, too many people are guilty of deification when they talk about logic. The term is often treated as some sort of monolithic, transcendental entity. In reality, logics are just particular axiom systems that live in the space of all possible axiom systems. Certain interlocutors of mine have acted as if logic has been perfect since its conception, it hasn't. For instance, we now know that some "valid" Aristotelian moods of the syllogism are clearly invalid such as the darapti inference. This syllogistic trend occurred before the rise of mathematical logic though.

    Quote
    The basic premise is that you can put a number to anything. Even to human life (think at insurances). Whether that number means something depends on how well you have thought your scheme out. Once you have put a number to anything, you can order things numerically. That's it.

    Now concerning axioms: axioms are strings of text. A set of axioms is a single axioms which is the conjunction of all the axioms in the set (I assume it is finite).What you have now is a string of characters. Order the strings of the different axioms sets (representing different logics) by increasing length. The shortest come first. Order strings of the same length in alphabetical order, according to an (extended) alphabet which includes letters, numbers, mathematical signs, ect, that appear in your strings. You are done. There may be other smarter ways to do it, but that is the idea. You can read all Wolfram ideas about this in "A new kind of science" page 772 onward online for example. This whole area of research is called "A new kind of science" (NKS) or "WolframScience".


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #117 - February 19, 2015, 02:28 PM

    That's very true. And it is also worth understanding not just of logic but of mathematics itself that it doesn't always have to be physical ("intuitive" for humans) which allows for an infinite cardinality on the axiom set! Mind blowing stuff Smiley

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #118 - February 21, 2015, 09:09 PM

    Look at the following Statements:

    S1: One American dies of melanoma almost every hour.

    S2: Almost every hour, an American dies of melanoma.

    You may think that they mean the same thing, but if taken literally, S1 is quite absurd.

    Let's look at the set of all Americans A, and pick out one specific member of the set. Let us call this element X.


    S1: X dies of melanoma almost every hour.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Could we get a Math section?
     Reply #119 - February 22, 2015, 12:12 AM

    Not seeing the problem with that statement personally. Also are they not logically equivalent? I might be missing something  Huh?

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
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