Mohammed conquered Jerusalem!

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Mohammed conquered Jerusalem!
OP - September 05, 2014, 05:18 PM

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Therefore this Muhammad, while in the measure and stature of youth, began to go up and come down from his city Yathrib to Palestine for the business of buying and selling. And while he was engaged in this region, he encountered the belief in one God, and it was pleasing to his eyes. And when he went back down to the people of his tribe, he set this belief before them, and when he persuaded a few, they followed him. And at the same time he would also extol for them the excellence of the land of Palestine, saying that “Because of belief in the one God, such a good and fertile land has been given to them.” And he would add, “If you will listen to me, God will also give you a fine land flowing with milk and honey.” And when he wanted to prove his word, he led a band of those who were obedient to him, and he began to go up and plunder the land of Palestine, taking captives and pillaging. And he returned, laden [with booty] and unharmed, and he did not fall short
of his promise to them.Since the love of possessions drives such behavior to become a habit, they began continually going out and coming back for plunder. And when those who were not yet following him saw those who had submitted to him becoming wealthy with an abundance of riches, they were drawn to his service without compulsion. Andwhen, after these [raids], the men following him became numerous and were a great force, he no longer [went forth but] allowed98 them to raid while he sat in honor in Yathrib, his city. And once they had been sent out, it was not enough for them to remain only in Palestine, but they were going much further afield, killing openly, taking captives, laying waste, and pillaging. And even this was not enough for them, but they forced them to pay tribute and enslaved them. Thus they gradually grew strong and spread abroad, and they grew so powerful that they subjugated almost all the land of the Romans and the kingdom of the Persians under their authority

This is rejected because it dates to 1234. But Shoemaker shows quite clearly it does track back to very early sources.

http://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/14933.html

p58

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Reply #1 - September 05, 2014, 05:34 PM

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a Syriac inscription from a north Syrian church dated to 780 bears the same information: “In the
year 930 the Arabs came to the land.”107

618!

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Reply #2 - September 05, 2014, 05:37 PM

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In 621 the Arabs conquered the land of Palestine all the way to the
Euphrates River, and the Romans fled and crossed over to the east
of the Euphrates, and the Arabs ruled over them in it [that is, Palestine].
Their first king was a man from among them whose name
was Muhammad. They also called this man a prophet, because he
turned them away from cults of every sort and taught them that
there is one God, the maker of creation. And he established laws for
them, because they were especially devoted to the worship of demons,
the veneration of idols, and especially the veneration of trees.
And because he had shown them the one God, and they had defeated
the Romans in battle under his leadership [ܐܒܪܩܒ ܘܟܙ ܦܐܘ
ܗܬܘܢܪܒܕܡ ܕܝܒ ܐ̈ܝ ܡܘܗܪܠ], and he had established laws for them according
to their desire, they called him a prophet and a messenger
of God.110

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Reply #3 - September 05, 2014, 07:57 PM

That doesn't say Mohammed conquered Jerusalem, it says his armies invaded Palestine. I believe that to be correct. I also agree with Shoemaker's thesis that Mohammed had expected and promised that his followers would conquer Jerusalem, thus ushering in the end times and the Last Judgment, but he died unexpectedly before that happened, throwing his religious movement into disarray ... what we know as Islam emerged after decades of dealing with the results (just as Christianity emerged from Jesus and his failed messianic bid, which his followers then reinterpreted in a radically different way).

I also generally agree with the revisionist thesis that the year 622, the so-called year of the "hijra" from which Muslim dating begins, actually began as the year of the *Arabs*, meaning Hagarenes, which later was reinterpreted as a "hijra" within the mythological Muslim biography of Mohammed. 622 is the year when Emperor Heraclius smashed the Sassanian Persians in a spectacular campaign, destroying their grip on Arabia, and allowing the Arabs (which had been rising in strength) to seize power in the Palestinian/Syrian region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius%27_campaign_of_622

Good recent article from Kerr on this argument:

http://www.academia.edu/2629114/Islam_Arabs_and_the_Hijra

There is no historical reference to any "hijra" consistent with Muslim tradition until centuries later. The Qur'anic verses trotted out to support it do not.
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Reply #4 - September 05, 2014, 08:23 PM

I wish I wasn't so tired from work to contribute to this discussion but my brian feels like it'sfried.. Anyone who says that teachers do jackshit can kiss my brown arse!

No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
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Reply #5 - September 05, 2014, 08:44 PM

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Continuatio is quite favorable to the Arabs, and as Levy-
Rubin observes, it exhibits a “positive evaluation concerning both conditions in
Palestine during the Umayyad period and the positive attitude of these rulers
towards the local population.”132 The Arab expulsion of the Byzantines is described
with approval, and the terms of Islamic governance are met with neutral
acceptance. Of Muhammad, the Continuatio says, rather astonishingly,
that “the prophet of Islam did not cause anyone distress throughout his life. He
would present his belief before the people, accepting anyone who came to him,
[yet] not compelling one who did not.” His immediate successors, the chronicle
continues, ruled “according to what he had enjoined upon them; they did no
more or less, and did not harm anyone.”133 It is a portrait of Islam’s emergence
within Palestine that comports rather well, as Levy-Rubin notes, with what can
otherwise be known about this period.134 Indeed, it is difficult to imagine that
such a favorable account would have been composed much beyond the first
several decades of Islamic rule, after which social and economic pressure on the
dhimmis (that is, non-Muslim peoples) was increased.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Reply #6 - September 05, 2014, 08:59 PM

I think he did get Jerusalem and the evidence of this is actually the story of him flying there on a horse! I would argue he probably was quite peaceful for two reasons - he was a better ruler than the Romans and he thought he was ushering in Christ's kingdom so he thought he was preparing the kingdom of heaven on earth. With the decades things returned to "normal".

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Reply #7 - September 05, 2014, 09:04 PM

Man, if the evidence is the mythological story written down by Ibn Ishaq two centuries later about how Mohammed rode a magical horse to the furthest mosque, ascended through heaven, and then returned .... I'm not sure I can agree with that type of evidence!

I agree though that the Arabs in general were preferred by the locals over the hated Byzantine and Sassanian rulers. So there wasn't much need to subjugate the locals, they were down with the new Arab rulers.
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Reply #8 - September 05, 2014, 09:05 PM

As a possibly related issues, do jihadi think they are ushering in the kingdom of heaven on earth? Is there such an idea in Islam?

Quote
Revelation 21 King James Version (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+21&version=KJV

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Reply #9 - September 05, 2014, 09:06 PM

Quote from: Zaotar on September 05, 2014, 09:04 PM
Man, if the evidence is the mythological story written down by Ibn Ishaq two centuries later about how Mohammed rode a magical horse to the furthest mosque, ascended through heaven, and then returned .... I'm not sure I can agree with that type of evidence!

I agree though that the Arabs in general were preferred by the locals over the hated Byzantine and Sassanian rulers. So there wasn't much need to subjugate the locals, they were down with the new Arab rulers.

The point is a real event needed to be disguised for theological reasons!

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Reply #10 - September 05, 2014, 09:07 PM

Why precisely is Jerusalem important for Islam?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Reply #11 - September 05, 2014, 09:19 PM

Quote from: moi on September 05, 2014, 09:06 PM
The point is a real event needed to be disguised for theological reasons!

I don't think there's any suggestion it was a real event. I take that story as just a mythological elaboration of the Qur'anic verse talking about 'the farthest mosque,' which nobody knows wtf is being talked about.

Neither that Qur'anic verse nor the hadith stories nor any of the non-Muslim historical sources ever claim that he actually conquered Jerusalem with an army.

Now a related issue that I think *is* a coverup is the mythology about Mohammed changing the prayer direction from Jerusalem to Mecca. For decades afterwards, there's good evidence that Muslim prayer directions were not towards Mecca, but where towards Jerusalem and Southern Palestine/Jordan generally. Later on, this conflict with the Meccan mythology became very embarrassing.

As for why Jerusalem is important, there is a very good argument that Jerusalem was the original focus of Mohammed's movement of Believers, and that Mecca was only substituted decades later, as Islam defined itself as a distinctive *Arabian religion* with an *Arabian prophet*, separating itself from the literate Syrio-Arabic context where it actually emerged. This is what Shoemaker argues, and I think he's right.
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Reply #12 - September 06, 2014, 10:42 AM

Quote from: Zaotar on September 05, 2014, 07:57 PM

There is no historical reference to any "hijra" consistent with Muslim tradition until centuries later. The Qur'anic verses trotted out to support it do not.

But there is a mythological/narrative echo with the figures of both Abraham and Moses, and a more general parallel with ideas of exile and return ( the old Hebrew mythos ) to a promised land.

And in the case of the myth of the emigrants to the Negus in Ethiopia ( more probably meaning South Arabia which was part of the greater Ethiopian Christian area of influence/domination in the 6th century ) - a recapitulation of the flight into refuge in Egypt, which is likewise present in both Jewish and Christian traditions.
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Reply #13 - September 06, 2014, 11:32 AM

Let's get serious about this - the date Islam dates from is actually the date Mohammed conquered Jerusalem. He died a few years later, possibly in Damascus. He possibly had never been anywhere near Mecca and Medina.

He did not alter the direction of mosques - that was also done later for theological reasons. We are looking at a very comprehensive rewrite of history - of both books and archaeology, including rewriting the date of death of someone and the meaning of exodus.

I understand several battles did not happen, but are copy pastes of other battles to different locations and times!

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Reply #14 - September 06, 2014, 11:46 AM

I would argue for a complete rewrite of all of the following.

Quote
The Siege of Jerusalem was part of a military conflict which took place in the year 637 between the Byzantine Empire and the Rashidun Caliphate. It began when the Rashidun army, under the command of Abu Ubaidah, besieged Jerusalem in November 636. After six months, the Patriarch Sophronius agreed to surrender, on condition that he submit only to the Rashidun caliph. In April 637, Caliph Umar traveled to Jerusalem in person to receive the submission of the city. The Patriarch thus surrendered to him.

The Muslim conquest of the city solidified the Arab control over Palestine, control which would not again be threatened until the First Crusade in the late 11th century. Thus, it came to be regarded as a holy site by Islam, as well as by Christianity and Judaism. This stabilized control of Palestina Prima. In 613, the Jewish revolt against the Byzantine Heraclius culminated with the conquest of Jerusalem in 614 by Persian and Jewish forces and establishment of Jewish autonomy. The revolt ended with the departure of the Persians and an eventual massacre of the Jews in 629 by the Byzantines ending 15 years of Jewish autonomy.

Following the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem, Jews were once again allowed to live and practice their religion in Jerusalem, 8 years after their massacre by the Byzantines and nearly 500 years after their expulsion from Judea by the Roman Empire although the ensuing Pact of Umar, traditionally attributed to then Caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab, implemented a series of restrictive measures on residents living under the occupation of the Rashidun Caliphate, greatly limiting Non-Muslim autonomy.[2]

Crone argues the Jewish revolt of 614 was helped by Hagarist forces, I think led by Mohammed. This is the actual date Islam dates itself from. This whole period 613 to 640 has huge Hagarist influence, in treaties, raiding, looting and formal battles.

There is so much propaganda from all sides over this period things have been well muddied, but I think can be worked out.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

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Reply #15 - September 06, 2014, 11:47 AM

Quote from: moi on September 06, 2014, 11:32 AM
Let's get serious about this - the date Islam dates from is actually the date Mohammed conquered Jerusalem. He died a few years later, possibly in Damascus. He possibly had never been anywhere near Mecca and Medina.

He did not alter the direction of mosques - that was also done later for theological reasons. We are looking at a very comprehensive rewrite of history - of both books and archaeology, including rewriting the date of death of someone and the meaning of exodus.

well then you guys are telling me that THERE WAS NO Muhammad... the Muhammad i read in Quran/hadith and from Islamic preachers.,

So do you guys agree with me that the story of Muhammad I hear is all cock and bull stories by Islamic rulers in collision with Muslim preachers??

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Reply #16 - September 06, 2014, 02:48 PM

Just looking at your chronology. My reaction was well summarised here!

We are looking at a complete rewrite and rebuild (including mosques!) - there was a Mo - but probably from Samaria, Damascus, Dead Sea area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP5O_NUhrK0

605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.
610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.

614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
Quote
620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
621: First pledge at Aqaba.
622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
623: Nakhla expedition.
624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.

Quote
632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.
633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq. Battles of Kazima, Mazar, Walaja, Ulleis, Hirah, Anbar, Ein at tamr, Daumatul Jandal and Firaz.
634: Battles of Basra, Damascus and Ajnadin. Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. Battles of Namaraq and Saqatia.
635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
638: Conquest of Jazirah.
639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan.[/u] Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
645: Campaigns in Fats.
646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
652: Discontentment and disaffection against the rule of Hadrat Othman.
656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
657: Hadrat Ali shifts the capital from Madina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. Arbitration proceedings at Daumaut ul Jandal.
658: Battle of Nahrawan.
659: Conquest of Egypt by Mu'awiyah.
660: Hadrat Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus.
661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22184.0

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Reply #17 - September 06, 2014, 02:52 PM

I wonder if much conquering actually happened, more of regime change?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #18 - September 06, 2014, 04:33 PM

Quote from: moi on September 06, 2014, 02:48 PM
Just looking at your chronology. My reaction was well summarised here!

We are looking at a complete rewrite and rebuild (including mosques!) - there was a Mo - but probably from Samaria, Damascus, Dead Sea area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP5O_NUhrK0

605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.
610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.

614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22184.0

well moi, Zaotar will say to you and me, all that early Islamic history is humbug written by some intelligent desert monkeys in 8th or 9 century.. Unfortunately his words seems to have some weight..

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Reply #19 - September 07, 2014, 10:23 AM

"Why precisely is Jerusalem important for Islam?"

Jerusalem was the "seat" of the dominant monotheistic religion at that time. This was viewed enviously by any that wanted to compete. And dominance of that place places Islam in the same "ring" as the "main event".
As was described in some of the afore mentioned text, the area around Jerusalem was viewed in a positive way, it was a "good" place, seen to have been blessed by God. If you've ever been to SA [I have], it is a barren place. So, if you were wandering around looking at real estate, which would you have picked? Plus the benefit of having claimed/captured biggest rivals capital, it's a two-fer.
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Reply #20 - September 07, 2014, 10:59 AM

Quote
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

More than enough reason for a new dating system and lauding the guy who started it!

Next question, why hide all of this in a desert a few thousand miles away?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Reply #21 - September 07, 2014, 11:07 AM

P80 Shoemaker

Quote
By consequence, individual traditions, despite their occasionally remarkable attention to detail, are commonly transmitted without any connection to a broader historical narrative.28 This quality often leaves the sequence of events uncertain,
and accordingly, as will be discussed further below, the chronology of the early Islamic historical tradition is widely recognized as one of its most artificial features.

Likewise, the narrative detail that occasionally seems to bring these biographical vignettes to life is a common literary device, named by Roland Barthes “the reality effect.”2

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #22 - September 07, 2014, 11:09 AM

Quote
With specific regard to the early traditions of Muhammad’s death, Leor Halevi observes that their attention to seemingly trivial details serves “to give the religious narrative a sense of verisimilitude, a certain tangibility that only such casual details could provide.”30

As interesting as such details are for what they reveal about the conceptual world of Muslim believers at the beginning of Islam’s second century, one must take care not to be seduced by these nuances into accepting the veracity of these reports.

Rather than validating the accounts in which they occur, they are instead very likely a sign of their literary construction.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Reply #23 - September 07, 2014, 11:12 AM

Quote
somewhat paradoxically, it would seem that as the distance from Muhammad’s lifetime increased, so too
did the Islamic tradition’s knowledge of what he had said and done

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Reply #24 - September 07, 2014, 11:20 AM

Is it not time to ask similar questions, not only about hadith, but also the koran and the entite history of Islam?

Quote
The Islamic tradition itself of course has long-established methods of isnād criticism designed to assess the authenticity of the numerous ḥadīth ascribed to Muhammad, the vast majority of which have been regarded as spurious
even in the Islamic faith.

Yet modern scholarship on Islamic origins generally approaches these chains of transmitters with a great deal more skepticism than the Islamic tradition, and consequently it has developed its own methods for evaluating both the isnāds themselves and the various traditions, or matns, to which they are attached.

There is certainly warrant for such suspicion, since forgery of ḥadīth and their isnāds was pandemic in early Islam: the ninth-century Islamic scholar of ḥadīth al-Bukhārī is said to have examined 600,000 traditions attributed to the Prophet by their isnāds, and of these he rejected over 593,000 as later forgeries.35 Matters are even worse in regard to the sīra traditions, which medieval Islamic scholars regarded as having even less historical reliability than the rest of the ḥadīth.36

With good cause, modern scholarship on Islamic origins has merely intensified the Islamic tradition’s own internal skepticism of prophetic traditions in its efforts to reconstruct the beginnings of Islam.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Mohammed conquered Jerusalem!
Reply #25 - September 07, 2014, 11:24 AM

Quote
Moreover, he concludes that the closer the original source of the tradition is to the Prophet himself, the more likely that
the isnād and the tradition itself are counterfeit and late, making traditions ascribed directly to Muhammad both the latest and most likely to be forged.39

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
- moi
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Mohammed conquered Jerusalem!
Reply #26 - September 07, 2014, 12:55 PM

Quote
of all the various features of the sīra, the chronology of Muhammad’s life is regarded as one of its most artificial elements

p101

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
- moi
- Pub Regular
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Mohammed conquered Jerusalem!
Reply #27 - September 07, 2014, 12:58 PM

Quote
The early Islamic historians have arranged these isolated fragments of tradition according to a sequential overlay of their own fashioning.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
- moi
- Pub Regular
- offline
Mohammed conquered Jerusalem!
Reply #28 - September 07, 2014, 01:02 PM

Quote
Indeed, the Arab-Sassanian coins very often appear to give a date for the hijra equivalent to 624–25, and the fact that an equivalent date is confirmed by the aberrant chronology of Sayf b.
ʿ
Umar’s history of the conquest of Arabia indicates that not all of the early Muslims agreed even on the dating of the hijra.132

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
- moi
- Pub Regular
- offline
Mohammed conquered Jerusalem!
Reply #29 - September 07, 2014, 06:14 PM

Quote
For example, the date of Jerusalem’s conquest is itself highly uncertain: despite the frequent acceptance of 638 as the year when the Arabs conquered the Holy City, Heribert Busse makes an excellent case, using Christian and Islamic materials together, for dating these events early in 635.182

Indeed, the events of the invasion of Syria and Palestine more generally are so confused in the Islamic sources that, as Donner writes, their course is “impossible to reconstruct with confidence because the traditional Muslim sources provide conflicting reports that cannot be reconciled satisfactorily.”183 The discord and confusion of the early Islamic accounts of the Syrian campaign are undoubtedly tokens that the original sequence of events either had been largely forgotten or was
subject to widespread revision by individual historians.

In either case it would appear that the chronology of the early conquests, much like that of Muhammad’s life, is the work of Islamic traditionists from the eighth and ninth centuries. In such circumstances, it is easy to imagine how a tradition
of Muhammad’s leadership during the invasion of Palestine could have either become lost or been re-remembered by his early biographers.

Certain literary tendencies of the early sīra tradition may have encouraged such revision of Muhammad’s association with the conquest of Palestine, including most notably the influence of prophetic models from the biblical tradition.

Modern scholarship has long recognized that the sīra’s depiction of Muhammad is frequently modeled directly after the life of Moses, in an effort to shape Muhammad’s biography according to the pattern of a biblical prophet.184

As noted already, this tendency is especially apparent in the sīra’s chronology of Muhammad’s life, and the timing of his birth and death in particular has been harmonized to reflect the traditional boundaries of Moses’ lifespan.185

Understood in this context, a shift of Muhammad’s death from after the invasion of Palestine in 634 to a pre-conquest death at Medina in 632 would also serve to conform the end of his life to the prophetic archetype established by the story of Moses.

According to biblical tradition, Moses died before reaching the Holy Land and thus was not involved in the Israelite conquest of Canaan.

p114

Quote

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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