thoughts on Surat An-Nisā'

1« Previous thread | Next thread »
- billy
- Pub Regular
- Tripitaka ~ Closet Juice
- offline
thoughts on Surat An-Nisā' - 4:89
OP - October 04, 2014, 10:06 PM

Is this referring to an apostasy punishment? Any thoughts on this verse, experiences, insights?

++++++

Surat An-Nisā' (The Women) - سورة النساء

4:89

Sahih International

They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
thoughts on Surat An-Nisā' - 4:89
Reply #1 - October 04, 2014, 10:18 PM

I thought that when I first read it years ago, but I think a lot of muslims interpret it as referring to those you have an alliance with later betraying you.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- Skywalker
- Pub Regular
- offline
thoughts on Surat An-Nisā' - 4:89
Reply #2 - October 04, 2014, 10:25 PM

88. Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made to go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance).

89. They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad ). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.

90. Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has opened no way for you against them.

If 89 is speaking about apostasy, then it would seem that apostasy,without fighting, is not punishable, since it says '' So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has opened no way for you against them''.Thats if 89 is speaking about apostasy.
- Skywalker
- Pub Regular
- offline
thoughts on Surat An-Nisā' - 4:89
Reply #3 - October 04, 2014, 10:37 PM

Maybe a tafsir can be found in which a scholar babbles his way to the death penalty for apostasy....
- Zaotar
- Pub Regular
- offline
thoughts on Surat An-Nisā' - 4:89
Reply #4 - October 05, 2014, 10:23 PM

My hypothesis (only a hypothesis mind).

Surat an-Nisaa, in the form we have it, is heavily modified to reflect the concerns of the decades following Mohammed's death.

Why, for example, is this Medinan surah counseling people to emigrate, and blasting those who don't? Emigrate where?

Why so much emphasis on people 'turning away,' and the believers splitting, and people being hypocrites?

IMO, the Surah reflects priestly arguments against those who would reject their position of authority in defining the "message" of the prophet which the believers (Arab speaking militants in the region of Palestine/Syria) are failing to properly heed.

So it is essentially a call to pull people into a religious militant movement, based on the prophet's message as recited to them (and allegedly his own words), not to fall away. This is all placed in Mohammed's mouth, after his death. In that sense, I would say these verses address 'apostasy,' but not apostasy in the strict sense we think of now -- more apostasy in the sense of failing to follow the political/religious faction left in Mohammed's wake, still focused on emigration and conquest consistent with the prophet's 'message,' now mediated by certain followers, and recorded by scribes for those purposes. (Interestingly this is essentially the same story that traditional Islam gives on compilation of the surah, except traditional Muslim scholars maintain that the followers -- companions -- and scribes 'got it right,' rather than as I would say 'made it up,' creating verses to address their very different current situation and needs, akin to what we have in the Gospels).

In other words, I think the verses are anachronistic, in the wake of the ongoing Arab conquests of the Levant ... NOT set within a context of Medina battling the Arab pagans and the Meccans! In that sense, they parallel the Gospels' relation to the initial Jesus movements, purporting to record the REAL teachings of Jesus and the REAL history, but in fact drafted to further specific positions of believing communities decades later.
- billy
- Pub Regular
- Tripitaka ~ Closet Juice
- offline
thoughts on Surat An-Nisā' - 4:89
Reply #5 - October 05, 2014, 10:45 PM

Zaotar, thank you for that, lots to chew on

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- shaytanshoes
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
thoughts on Surat An-Nisā' - 4:89
Reply #6 - October 08, 2014, 12:21 PM

Damn, Zaotar, that's some heavy artillery. It's interesting in light of previous threads discussing about how the Hijra may never have happened.

Would such heavy-handed revisionism from swapping tales of conquest in the Levant into a migration from Mecca to Medina show any traces? The Qu'ran is full of "WTF!?" moments; if it was truly a divine document intended to lead humanity forever, a few simple commandments would have sufficed instead of long rambling verses which can be translated any which way.
- Zaotar
- Pub Regular
- offline
thoughts on Surat An-Nisā' - 4:89
Reply #7 - October 08, 2014, 05:17 PM

I put zero stock in the Hijra. The idea that the year 622 originally became "year zero" for the Arabs because it was the date of the "Hijra" to Medina makes little sense even *within* traditional Muslim accounts. Why would anybody conceivably start a new dating system based on that description of this date? Dating systems are almost always based on the *birth* of somebody, the *death* of somebody, a great battle, or the establishment of a new political order. The date of a migration of a small group to a different city in the same region? Why not the date of Mohammed's conquest of Mecca? Why not the date of his first revelation? Why not the date of his birth? Why not the date of his death?

I believe it is certain that the "Year of the Arabs," aka 622, was originally intended to commemorate a spectacular new development in Arab political authority. And this is how the earliest historical sources refer to this new dating system, the "Year of the Arabs." But certainly that would originally have been in terms of projecting Arab political authority vis a vis Sassanian and Byzantine imperial authority!

That said, I'm not of the opinion that Surat al Nisa was necessarily all written after Muhammad's death in the sense that it does not contain any of his own pronouncements. But the text is deeply composite and heavily tampered with. Just look at its awkward beginning, followed by 4:11 and 4:12 which are blatant legalistic interpolations. The Surah contains several of these legal interpolations which (as David Powers shows) contain clear signs of significant later tampering.

However beneath these legalistic interpolations you see a concern with treating orphans and women justly, combined with many stereotypical statements about disbelief/hellfire/righteousness. It would seem that the kernel of the text probably consisted of a recitation of the prophet's commandments about how to deal righteously with orphans and women, and that core was later elaborated into a complex composite text. Then you have long recitations exhorting emigration to fight for Allah. How is any of this compatible with the Mecca/Medina background? It is abundantly clear that what is being referred to is not an emigration from Mecca to Medina, but rather an expansive 'going forth' into the world and fighting the disbelievers (recalcitrant Jews and orthodox Christians) in many locations, expanding the empire of the believer movement. For example:

4:100 And whoever emigrates for the cause of Allah will find on the earth many [alternative] locations and abundance. And whoever leaves his home as an emigrant to Allah and His Messenger and then death overtakes him - his reward has already become incumbent upon Allah . And Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.

THIS is the 'hijra' that the year 622 reflects, the Qur'anic hijra of emigrating jihadis seizing power in the collapse of Sassanian/Byzantine authority, not the hijra of the sirah. The initial hijra is all about Arab political expansion via jihad, seizing power over alien communities, not internal Arabian migration within the Hijaz. The concern with treatment of orphans and widows relates to that jihadi mindset, because orphans, widows, and inheritance rules are the natural critical issues that come up in the context of expansive jihad and conquest -- as Allah's warriors are killed in battle, you must deal justly with your resulting populations of women (captive and/or unmarried or widowed), orphans, and bereaved.
1« Previous thread | Next thread »