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Theme Changer

 Topic: Noah's Age in the Bible?

 (Read 5758 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     OP - October 08, 2014, 10:16 PM

    The Qur'an (29:14) says that Noah spent 950 years with his people when the floods came - so presumably he made it to a millennium after the flood. (I hope God gave him a gold watch or something.) Anyway, I wanted to know from any ex-Christians or still believing Christians what the Bible says about Noah's Age?

    Again I am interested in how the Qur'an may have come up with that number.
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #1 - October 08, 2014, 10:19 PM

    It says, "Noah lived 950 years and then he died." Genesis 9:28
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #2 - October 08, 2014, 10:25 PM

    The Noah story is actually one that I think the Qur'an does a slightly better job on. It's much more poetic and lacks some of the (even more) ludicrous details.

    In my opinion, the Genesis account also makes Allah/God sound more like a sappy old oaf, creating man, then second guessing himself because of their wickedness and wiping them all out, then feeling sorry about the whole thing and promising never to do it again. (He even adds in a nice rainbow to show he really means it.)

    In the Qur'an, though, Allah seems happy about "doing away" with the evil doers. The story is also much more akin to Muhammad's alleged story of being denied by his people and awaiting the impending wrath of Allah.
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #3 - October 08, 2014, 10:30 PM

    From the book of the generations.

    Genesis 5:32 "And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth."

    Genesis 7:8 "And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth."

    Genesis 7:11 "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

    Genesis 9:28-29 "And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years. And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died."

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #4 - October 08, 2014, 10:31 PM

    Damn happymurtad beat me to it.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #5 - October 08, 2014, 10:34 PM

    Yes there is definitely a veiled  threat (well quite blatant actually) to the mushrikeen of Mecca.

    But I'm interested in how Muhammad seems to have got things mixed up a bit here. He got the number 950, but doesn't take that as Noah's age - but only the time he spent as a prophet to his people.

    The tafseers give various ages for the age he was when sent. Tabari says he was 350 when sent while Suyuti says he was forty. Tabari says he lived 350 after the flood - and that fits with what the Bible says.
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #6 - October 08, 2014, 10:35 PM

    So according to Tabari Noah was 1650 when he died.

     Smiley
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #7 - October 08, 2014, 10:38 PM

    From the book of the generations.

    Genesis 5:32 "And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth."

    Genesis 7:8 "And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth."

    Genesis 7:11 "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

    Genesis 9:28-29 "And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years. And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died."


    Nah.. ...  all that you see in OT    flood/boat/goat stories are  just copied/slightly modified versions from that  Epic Of Gilgamesh.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #8 - October 08, 2014, 10:39 PM



    Again I am interested in how the Qur'an may have come up with that number.


    It is the truth from your lord. Neither you nor your people knew of it before this revelation. But mankind is ever ungrateful, haughty.  Tongue

    Yes there is definitely a veiled  threat (well quite blatant actually) to the mushrikeen of Mecca.

    But I'm interested in how Muhammad seems to have got things mixed up a bit here. He got the number 950, but doesn't take that as Noah's age - but only the time he spent as a prophet to his people.

    The tafseers give various ages for the age he was when sent. Tabari says he was 350 when sent while Suyuti says he was forty. Tabari says he lived 350 after the flood - and that fits with what the Bible says.


    Honestly, the Qur'an to me bears all the hallmarks of a person who heard a story once or twice in passing, then paraphrased it to suit their own environment. Like the kid at school who submits a book report on a book he's only heard being discussed before. It's my opinion that in many of those discrepancies between the Qur'an and the Bible, the author recalls a few details and gets others wrong.

    I think this is particularly true of the story of Joseph. So many of the things in there are just about right, but still kind of wrong when compared to the biblical narrative.
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #9 - October 08, 2014, 10:43 PM

    Those are basically my thoughts on the matter, though some of the changes could just be Mo liked them better.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #10 - October 08, 2014, 10:47 PM


    Honestly, the Qur'an to me bears all the hallmarks of a person who heard a story once or twice in passing, then paraphrased it to suit their own environment. Like the kid at school who submits a book report on a book he's only heard being discussed before. It's my opinion that in many of those discrepancies between the Qur'an and the Bible, the author recalls a few details and gets others wrong.

    I think this is particularly true of the story of Joseph. So many of the things in there are just about right, but still kind of wrong when compared to the biblical narrative.


    Yep, I'm guessing Muhammad never thought he'd come up against Bible scholars out there in 7th century Arabia - so no need to worry too much about details.

    It is the truth from your lord. Neither you nor your people knew of it before this revelation. But mankind is ever ungrateful, haughty.  Tongue


    tee hee  Tongue
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #11 - October 08, 2014, 10:50 PM

    btw Quod, did I see a poster call you "Raven"? Were you Raven back in the day on ummah.com?

    I used to post there way back and remember a poster by that name and remember he was a cool guy. One of the barely tolerated Ummah Kuffar.
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #12 - October 08, 2014, 10:51 PM

    I was Cosmicdancer.
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #13 - October 08, 2014, 10:55 PM

    btw Quod, did I see a poster call you "Raven"? Were you Raven back in the day on ummah.com?

    I used to post there way back and remember a poster by that name and remember he was a cool guy. One of the barely tolerated Ummah Kuffar.

    Lol no, it was a sort of joke. That new user paul_tarsus? By an amazing coincidence he's someone I used to be quite friendly with for a number of years, but we lost touch about three years ago. My last name means "Little Raven", hence his mentioning of it.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #14 - October 08, 2014, 10:57 PM

    ahh ok... lol

    Well you're still cool  Afro
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #15 - October 08, 2014, 10:58 PM

    And you my good man.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #16 - October 08, 2014, 10:58 PM

    Abu Ali,

    What do you think of the view that the Qur'an is not primarily the words of Muhammad but a compilation of earlier and later works (Or that Muhammad may not have been the name of an actual person in 7th century Makkah)? Also, what do you think of the idea that Makkah was not quite what we are told it was, and that "immigration" more likely referred to the Arab migration to the "Promised Land" in Jerusalem and the Levant?

    I know that for me, I am biased by my background to essentially accepting the traditional narrative, with the understanding that bits may have been added or embellished upon. It's hard for me to conceptualize things any other way, honestly. I'm curious as to how you view it.
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #17 - October 08, 2014, 11:07 PM

    Abu Ali,

    What do you think of the view that the Qur'an is not primarily the words of Muhammad but a compilation of earlier and later works (Or that Muhammad may not have been the name of an actual person in 7th century Makkah)? Also, what do you think of the idea that Makkah was not quite what we are told it was, and that "immigration" more likely referred to the Arab migration to the "Promised Land" in Jerusalem and the Levant?

    I know that for me, I am biased by my background to essentially accepting the traditional narrative, with the understanding that bits may have been added or embellished upon. It's hard for me to conceptualize things any other way, honestly. I'm curious as to how you view it.


    Yes, I feel the same. It's hard for me to think of the Qur'an as being a compilation as I am so conditioned to see it as Muhammad's (God's Wink) words, even though I had come across such a view way back when I was at SOAS, from my then Tutor, Dr. Wansbrough in his book Qur'anic Studies. But I rejected it outright then. I am more open to the idea now, but where is the hard evidence?

    The Qur'an does seem like a jigsaw at times with blocks of text repeated in slightly different forms here and there and I can easily imagine how it could have been mixed and matched and added to and taken away from before it was set in stone generations after Muhammad.
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #18 - October 08, 2014, 11:09 PM

    Not sure about the migration to Jerusalem bit. That sounds an odd idea to me. But who knows!?
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #19 - October 08, 2014, 11:21 PM

    As we're changing the topic (oh and before it slips my mind, there are some christians who believe Noah's age was actually 950 lunar cycles, which would put him at I think 72-75 at the time of death) does anyone know if the islamic practise of circumcision is/was done for the same reason as the jews, as part of Abraham's covenant with god? When I've brought this up with muslims, it's usually a no and then after a pause a maybe. Mo apparently being born without a foreskin would actually make a lot more sense if you think about it along this line.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #20 - October 08, 2014, 11:22 PM

    Quote
    I am more open to the idea now, but where is the hard evidence?


    That's exactly it.
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #21 - October 08, 2014, 11:25 PM

    does anyone know if the islamic practise of circumcision is/was done for the same reason as the jews, as part of Abraham's covenant with god? When I've brought this up with muslims, it's usually a no and then after a pause a maybe. Mo apparently being born without a foreskin would actually make a lot more sense if you think about it along this line.


    I'm sure it's directly bitten from Jewish practice, as is the case with most things Islamic, but the rationale is that circumcision is a part of the fitrah-your natural disposition- like trimming your nails, cutting your pubic hair, and believing in Allah.
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #22 - October 08, 2014, 11:27 PM

    You don't think the "covenant" factors into it at all?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #23 - October 08, 2014, 11:31 PM

    I don't know of anything in the text itself that supports that. The rationale given is that it is from the fitrah. And Allah knows best...
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #24 - October 08, 2014, 11:36 PM

    does anyone know if the islamic practise of circumcision is/was done for the same reason as the jews, as part of Abraham's covenant with god? When I've brought this up with muslims, it's usually a no and then after a pause a maybe...


    Most Muslims probably can't answer that because most Muslims haven't a clue why they should be circumcised. Many would be surprised to hear that it's not in the Qur'an.

    Like HM says, I suspect it's just copied from the Jews as were many things.
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #25 - October 08, 2014, 11:54 PM

    I suppose it might be that as I was familiar with biblical texts when I first turned my attention to islamic theology it was something that jumped out at me. Just a little detail for the benefit of those unfamiliar with juedo-christian scripture, circumcision symbolises the ties between god and Abraham and between god and his followers. I know Mo wanted to recruit jews to his cause. I think I recall that muslims were originally instructed to pray facing Jerusalem or another jewish holy site until they rejected Mo's claims and later prayed facing Mecca. Also I think I read something about halal being meant to aline with jewish dietary laws? When I first read this, and how Mo travelled to meet a tribe of jews and convince them he was a prophet, I tried to check to see if it was around this time people said Mo was born without a foreskin. I've always thought there was something to it.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #26 - October 09, 2014, 12:09 AM

    He also used to fast on Yom Kippur. Then later made it a Muslim fast Ashura, 10th of Muharram.
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #27 - October 09, 2014, 12:14 AM

    Yes, I feel the same. It's hard for me to think of the Qur'an as being a compilation as I am so conditioned to see it as Muhammad's (God's Wink) words, even though I had come across such a view way back when I was at SOAS, from my then Tutor, Dr. Wansbrough in his book Qur'anic Studies. But I rejected it outright then. I am more open to the idea now, but where is the hard evidence?

    The Qur'an does seem like a jigsaw at times with blocks of text repeated in slightly different forms here and there and I can easily imagine how it could have been mixed and matched and added to and taken away from before it was set in stone generations after Muhammad.


    I think the traditional view is not so different from the revisionist views if you think about it.  Both the traditional and modern views see the Qur'an as a composite slowly produced over a LOOOOONG period of time (decades for both views) in radically different social circumstances that resulted in radically different directives stated in the text (traditionally, pagan Mecca v. Judao-Mohammedan Medina).  Both the traditional and modern views see the Surahs as including later interpolations (for example, Surah 74:31, even Muslim tradition recognizes the blatant interpolation, or the end of Surat an Nisan, 4:176 ... nobody could think this was an original text ... so to explain, that, Muslims just argued these individual ayas were received later as separate revelations to Mohammed).   Both the traditional and modern views see the "Mushaf" as a sort of composite formed by committee out of disparate materials after Mohammed's death.

    Likewise, the many straightforward contradictions in the Qur'an (one moment wine is great, the next it's a sin) had to be explained away by a concept of successive revelations in which the older conflicting texts were later replaced by new revelations.  One part of the Qur'an preaches peace and love towards the Jews, other parts are bitterly anti-Semitic; why, well Muslim tradition came up with the explanation that Mohammed was betrayed by the Jews at one point during his revelations, specifically at Medina.  I think traditional Muslims may not recognize how artificial this device is, how it's a way of attempting to integrate the many strange disjunctions in the surahs and try to account for them as if they were produced by a single individual.

    There are even hadith recording how scribes added text to improve the rhyme, and how Mohammed heard their version recited back to him, and 'adopted' it as the Qur'an.

    Where they differ is that the traditional view argues that the work is unified in the life of a single Arabian prophet, and that it was flawlessly orally transmitted (sort of) apart from its textual form.  The modern view would argue that is a tendentious later argument imposed on the text, and if you look at the text, it is radically heterogeneous (compare it with any other work of Near Eastern religious literature that is traditionally assigned to a single author, for example, and with the exception perhaps of the Gathas there is none so heterogeneous).

    So this is the strongest evidence that it's a composite text -- it's essentially undisputed that it HAS to be a composite text assembled by multiple hands over a long period of years, the question is just what that process of composite assembly most likely consisted of, and whether the text as we know it all fits comfortably within the traditional account of the life of an Arabian prophet, reflecting just his words as reliably recalled by his associates before being written down, with no other material.  For many reasons, I think that account --- I describe it as an unlikely hypothesis about the textual origin --- has been shown thoroughly defective and unreliable.  Thus the burden of proof falls on the other foot ... we should no more take a believer's account of the Qur'an's origins written 200 years later as reliable than we should do the same for an account of a NT Gospel's origins written 200 years later.

    I think it is very beneficial to sit down with a modern translation of the Qur'an and really think through what it is actually saying, while 'bracketing' the traditional explanations.  Treat it as you would *any other religious text* that is the object of study.  I think this is probably difficult for both believing Muslims and traditional scholars, to set aside the traditional interpretive apparatus and look at the text fresh and critically.  One of the first results of this process will be that the text is consistently baffling or unclear, but this is just a reality that must be dealt with.
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #28 - October 09, 2014, 12:26 AM

    Quote
    I think it is very beneficial to sit down with a modern translation of the Qur'an and really think through what it is actually saying, while 'bracketing' the traditional explanations.  Treat it as you would *any other religious text* that is the object of study.  I think this is probably difficult for both believing Muslims and traditional scholars, to set aside the traditional interpretive apparatus and look at the text fresh and critically.  One of the first results of this process will be that the text is consistently baffling or unclear, but this is just a reality that must be dealt with.


    This is certainly true. The fact that I am so intimately familiar with the traditional exegesis of the Qur'an makes me aware of my biases. It's not that I don't fully understand the modern position and accept its plausibility, it's that I'm still most comfortable viewing the Qur'an as essentially the words of Muhammad, mixed, jumbled, added to, and subtracted from over time. It makes most sense to me that way and even my disbelief in it stems primarily from viewing it in that context.

     The same is not true for me with the New Testament, for example. The traditional view of the New Testament seems entirely contrived to me.  
  • Noah's Age in the Bible?
     Reply #29 - October 09, 2014, 12:39 AM

    Yeah I think part of that reflects the importance of the Qur'an to the living community of Muslims -- that's how the Qur'an is significant in our world, as it is interpreted through the traditional apparatus, so if you are interested in the 'real world' of Islam, then you are going to want to engage and think about it through that lens of the traditional understanding.  That certainly makes sense.

    On the other hand, if you see it like I like to (as a fascinating historical subject), then you probably aren't going to be overly interested in how it is interpreted many centuries later by the faithful religious community ... except perhaps as a point of departure.

    The New Testament is interesting in that even Christians have never clung that strongly to the 'traditional' accounts of its authorship and composition, although they almost all contend it is divinely sanctioned in its final compilation.  Catholics generally tend to use a similar device to Islam in that regard, arguing that there was an apostolic church that by its continuity down to St. Peter guaranteed legitimacy of the canon ....  even though that account really makes little sense, and is a rather blatant fiction.
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