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 Topic: The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam

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  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #60 - October 13, 2014, 07:24 PM

    Of course it does. A slave must do as his master bids. The hadiths explain that Quran 4:24 was revelaed for this specific purpose:
    http://sunnah.com/muslim/17#43
    http://sunnah.com/abudawud/12#110


    (Of course it does. A slave must do as his master bids. The hadiths explain that Quran 4:24 was revelaed for this specific purpose:

    Quote
    They took captives (women) on the day of Autas who had their husbands. They were afraid (to have sexual intercourse with them) when this verse was revealed:" And women already married except those whom you right hands posses" (iv. 24))

    OK let me put your claim in real life situation and see your reaction if you Tonyt said to your brother that "you can have sex with any woman (anyone even slaves)" and people will reply with " OMG OMG OMG Tonyt is allowing his brother to rape slave women" are you gonna be happy with that?Huh?? the verse or the chapter itself must be read in context

    4:19-25 read it now i could come with more context but really everyone now is commning at me with many comments
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #61 - October 13, 2014, 07:26 PM

    Neither..  there were many cruel practices that mohammed turned a blind eye to, as everyone already said above this only proves that he was just a man of his day, not a prophet of God.


    how can a man who asked for slaves to be free and said your slaves are your brothers be cruel??? that doesn't prove he was a man of his time and if he was then you should stop calling him a pedophile because it was a social norm back then this actually proves we are living in a very sensitive socity
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #62 - October 13, 2014, 07:31 PM

    Slaves are slaves, no matter what the system.


    if a system calls slaves brothers and ask for manumitting them (freeing them) and paying there randsomes then how can they still be considered slaves??

    Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah:
    Musaykah, a slave-girl of some Ansari, came and said: My master forces me to commit fornication. Thereupon the following verse was revealed: "But force not your maids to prostitution (when they desire chastity)."
    حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، عَنْ حَجَّاجٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ جُرَيْجٍ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي أَبُو الزُّبَيْرِ، أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ جَابِرَ بْنَ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، يَقُولُ جَاءَتْ مُسَيْكَةُ لِبَعْضِ الأَنْصَارِ فَقَالَتْ إِنَّ سَيِّدِي يُكْرِهُنِي عَلَى الْبِغَاءِ فَنَزَلَ فِي ذَلِكَ ‏{‏ وَلاَ تُكْرِهُوا فَتَيَاتِكُمْ عَلَى الْبِغَاءِ ‏}‏ ‏.‏
    Grade   : Sahih (Al-Albani)     صحيح   (الألباني)   حكم     :
    Reference    : Sunan Abi Dawud 2311
    In-book reference    : Book 13, Hadith 137
    English translation    : Book 12, Hadith 2304

     Muwatta Malik
    Malik related to me from Nafi that a slave was in charge of the slaves in the khumus and he forced a slave-girl among those slaves against her will and had intercourse with her. Umar ibn al-Khattab had him flogged and banished him, and he did not flog the slave-girl because the slave had forced her.

    حَدَّثَنِي مَالِكٌ، عَنْ نَافِعٍ، أَنَّ عَبْدًا، كَانَ يَقُومُ عَلَى رَقِيقِ الْخُمُسِ وَأَنَّهُ اسْتَكْرَهَ جَارِيَةً مِنْ ذَلِكَ الرَّقِيقِ فَوَقَعَ بِهَا فَجَلَدَهُ عُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ وَنَفَاهُ وَلَمْ يَجْلِدِ الْوَلِيدَةَ لأَنَّهُ اسْتَكْرَهَهَا ‏.‏
    USC-MSA web (English) reference    : Book 41, Hadith 15
    Arabic reference    : Book 41, Hadith 1517

    And Safiyya bint 'Ubaid said:
    "A governmental male-slave tried to seduce a slave-girl from the Khumus of the war booty till he deflowered her by force against her will; therefore 'Umar flogged him according to the law, and exiled him, but he did not flog the female slave because the male-slave had committed illegal sexual intercourse by force, against her will." Az-Zuhri said regarding a virgin slave-girl raped by a free man: The judge has to fine the adulterer as much money as is equal to the price of the female slave and the adulterer has to be flogged (according to the Islamic Law); but if the slave woman is a matron, then, according to the verdict of the Imam, the adulterer is not fined but he has to receive the legal punishment (according to the Islamic Law).
    وَقَالَ اللَّيْثُ حَدَّثَنِي نَافِعٌ، أَنَّ صَفِيَّةَ ابْنَةَ أَبِي عُبَيْدٍ، أَخْبَرَتْهُ أَنَّ عَبْدًا مِنْ رَقِيقِ الإِمَارَةِ وَقَعَ عَلَى وَلِيدَةٍ مِنَ الْخُمُسِ، فَاسْتَكْرَهَهَا حَتَّى افْتَضَّهَا، فَجَلَدَهُ عُمَرُ الْحَدَّ وَنَفَاهُ، وَلَمْ يَجْلِدِ الْوَلِيدَةَ مِنْ أَجْلِ أَنَّهُ اسْتَكْرَهَهَا‏.‏ قَالَ الزُّهْرِيُّ فِي الأَمَةِ الْبِكْرِ، يَفْتَرِعُهَا الْحُرُّ، يُقِيمُ ذَلِكَ الْحَكَمُ مِنَ الأَمَةِ الْعَذْرَاءِ بِقَدْرِ قِيمَتِهَا، وَيُجْلَدُ، وَلَيْسَ فِي الأَمَةِ الثَّيِّبِ فِي قَضَاءِ الأَئِمَّةِ غُرْمٌ، وَلَكِنْ عَلَيْهِ الْحَدُّ‏.‏
    Reference    : Sahih al-Bukhari 6949
    In-book reference    : Book 89, Hadith 10
    USC-MSA web (English) reference    : Vol. 1, Book 85, Hadith 81

  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #63 - October 13, 2014, 07:33 PM

    Slaves are unfree by definition, so I see nothing good in it, NO MATTER WHAT THE SYSTEM.
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #64 - October 13, 2014, 07:42 PM

    Slaves are unfree by definition, so I see nothing good in it, NO MATTER WHAT THE SYSTEM.


    we are all slaves in the eyes of Allah so what is your point? even the slave masters are slaves so what is your point?
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #65 - October 13, 2014, 07:43 PM

    Oh okay I'd misunderstood, my apologies. My problem with it is that he is the one who enslaved her, yet it is somehow a fair deal that he releases her in exchange for getting married(and I could very well argue that Muhammad's wife were subject to a kind of slavery possibly worse than the normal one). War booty was, and remains to this day, an 'Islamic' tradition.


    Everything about slavery that you quoted was all done to further increase Mohamed and Islam's grasp of power and each and every thing you quote just shows how human and powerless Allah truly is. I'm sorry, You seem like a fairly decent person, but justifying slavery just always jumps at me as retarded.

    أشهد أن لا إله
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #66 - October 13, 2014, 07:43 PM

    we are all slaves in the eyes of Allah so what is your point? even the slave masters are slaves so what is your point?

    I don't believe in Allah.
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #67 - October 13, 2014, 07:44 PM

    we are all slaves in the eyes of Allah so what is your point? even the slave masters are slaves so what is your point?


    You cannot use religion as a justification for slavery when arguing with Atheists.

    Edit: But you do bring up a good point, that religion has always been used as a justification for slavery, since time immemorial.
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #68 - October 13, 2014, 07:48 PM

    You cannot use religion as a justification for slavery when arguing with Atheists.

    Edit: But you do bring up a good point, that religion has always been used as a justification for slavery, since time immemorial.


    are you saying i can't use any verse or any hadith whatsoever in talking with atheists?Huh?Huh? the the HOLE POINTS of EVERYTHING atheists saying about religion falls apart if religious people can't answer back with verses

    (But you do bring up a good point, that religion has always been used as a justification for slavery, since time immemorial.)

    When did i said that?
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #69 - October 13, 2014, 07:50 PM

    We can see in most royal propaganda, going back to ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians, this idea that even the ruler is merely a servant of Gods, bowing down to a higher power. This helps to frame the hierarchy of the existing society and all it's inequalities, as simply the natural order of the world rather than a man made creation.
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #70 - October 13, 2014, 07:50 PM

    I don't believe in Allah.


    then don't reject my point if islam thinks EVERYONE is a slave then this debunks the argument that islam has no Equality with slaves you are arguing that according to islam slaves and the non slaves are not brothers or not the same when i show you it's not that case then you say will i don't believe in allah will then don't use religious argument against religion sense you don't believe in religion
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #71 - October 13, 2014, 07:52 PM

    We can see in most royal propaganda, going back to ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians, this idea that even the ruler is merely a servant of Gods, bowing down to a higher power. This helps to frame the hierarchy of the existing society, and all it's inequalities as simply the natural order of the world, rather than a man made creation.


    quite wrong in ancient Egyptians the Pharaohs or rulers where considered Gods
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #72 - October 13, 2014, 07:55 PM

    They were considered the living incarnate of Gods, but it is the same idea in practice as used by the Mesopotamians and the Israelites. The justification of a hierarchical society as part of the natural order of the world, created by God(s) rather than men, and therefore impossible to oppose effectively.
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #73 - October 13, 2014, 07:57 PM

    how can a man who asked for slaves to be free and said your slaves are your brothers be cruel??? that doesn't prove he was a man of his time and if he was then you should stop calling him a pedophile because it was a social norm back then this actually proves we are living in a very sensitive socity


    Yeah exactly, you said it yourself, it was the social norm back in the day to be a paedophile and a slave trader, both not accepted in todays society yet all were condoned by the prophet which makes him a man of his day and the quran/hadiths a product of its day, all the same thing really
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #74 - October 13, 2014, 07:57 PM

    then don't reject my point if islam thinks EVERYONE is a slave then this debunks the argument that islam has no Equality with slaves you are arguing that according to islam slaves and the non slaves are not brothers or not the same when i show you it's not that case then you say will i don't believe in allah will then don't use religious argument against religion sense you don't believe in religion

    But your point was not 'all people', but slavery and slaves under islamic rule. I don't believe in Allah and I am certainly nobody's slave.
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #75 - October 13, 2014, 08:05 PM

    then don't reject my point if islam thinks EVERYONE is a slave then this debunks the argument that islam has no Equality with slaves you are arguing that according to islam slaves and the non slaves are not brothers or not the same when i show you it's not that case then you say will i don't believe in allah will then don't use religious argument against religion sense you don't believe in religion


    A)Are you comparing being a man's slave to being a slave of your Allah- a god?
    B)That is such circular reasoning. That is like saying that homosexuality is wrong because the bible says so and if other people don't believe in the bible then they have to right to argue against it because Jesus says he's right.

    أشهد أن لا إله
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #76 - October 13, 2014, 08:10 PM

    But your point was not 'all people', but slavery and slaves under islamic rule. I don't believe in Allah and I am certainly nobody's slave.


    I'm not saying you are if you are not a muslim Fine i have nothing against that at all but my  point is when you make an argument against religion using religion verses then someone respond using the same religius source you used then in return you respond with (But i don't believe in allah) this won't work
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #77 - October 13, 2014, 08:13 PM

    I did not use religious verses, you did. The only thing I said is that a slave is a slave no matter under what system, since being a slave means you are unfree. You are the one who tries to excuse slavery, not me.
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #78 - October 13, 2014, 08:17 PM

    Yeah exactly, you said it yourself, it was the social norm back in the day to be a paedophile and a slave trader, both not accepted in todays society yet all were condoned by the prophet which makes him a man of his day and the quran/hadiths a product of its day, all the same thing really


    but you can;t lebel him with the word pedophile because it didn't exist at his time you can only lebel him with words existed at his time let me ask you a question have you Sean the Scotland famous tradition that hundreds of years ago men used to wear cloths that look like women skirts?Huh? it's called kilt now are you gonna call them sissy? or cross-dressers?Huh??? when no one today wear them (apart from few exceptions) so wearing a skirt like outfit for men today is humiliating makes you think these men are p***y but back then it was normal are you gonna lebel the people back then with the same thing?? also in 18th century people in England wear powdered wigs mainly in curts but today in normal life we don't yet we don't call these people back then a bunch of women-like men
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #79 - October 13, 2014, 08:18 PM

    I did not use religious verses, you did. The only thing I said is that a slave is a slave no matter under what system, since being a slave means you are unfree. You are the one who tries to excuse slavery, not me.


    i asumed that because you have been in this website longer than i did so you MUST have use religious verses before
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #80 - October 13, 2014, 08:20 PM

    A)Are you comparing being a man's slave to being a slave of your Allah- a god?
    B)That is such circular reasoning. That is like saying that homosexuality is wrong because the bible says so and if other people don't believe in the bible then they have to right to argue against it because Jesus says he's right.


    a- they are both the same we are all slaves i said that many times
    b-no my point is you are saying islam says slave is not the same as his master when i argued that is wrong because according to islam we are all slaves i didn't say that islam says we are all slaves because islam says so  i said that to correct a position you had on islam
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #81 - October 13, 2014, 08:25 PM

    a- they are both the same we are all slaves i said that many times
    b-no my point is you are saying islam says slave is not the same as his master when i argued that is wrong because according to islam we are all slaves i didn't say that islam says we are all slaves because islam says so  i said that to correct a position you had on islam


    Islam can say what it wants to. Not only have you completely abandoned your original hypothesis, but you have also convinced yourself that it's completely okay to accept the idea of enslaving people just because you believe that you are some god's slave. Do you not see how twisted and sick that logic is?

    أشهد أن لا إله
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #82 - October 13, 2014, 08:35 PM

    i asumed that because you have been in this website longer than i did so you MUST have use religious verses before

    Never, because first of all, I haven't posted much on this forum until now, and second because I will never make use of religious verses that I don't believe in. I have been an atheist for 27 years and I don't believe in religion. This is your argument, I am only reacting to your points.
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #83 - October 13, 2014, 08:37 PM

    Islam can say what it wants to. Not only have you completely abandoned your original hypothesis, but you have also convinced yourself that it's completely okay to accept the idea of enslaving people just because you believe that you are some god's slave. Do you not see how twisted and sick that logic is?


    that is a gross idea when did i said it's ok to enslave people?Huh?Huh?Huh??plaese quote me directly don't be like stopspamming and now you say I abandoned my original hypothesis?Huh?? please tell me how


    Like i said keep it civilized i don't want insults i didn't insult you so don't start insulting me
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #84 - October 13, 2014, 08:38 PM

    This is just going nowhere.
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #85 - October 13, 2014, 08:44 PM

    This is just going nowhere.


    what do you expect for me to leave islam Huh?Huh?Huh?? i was just presenting a hypothesis nothing more but then later somehow this turned into a debate when i SAID THAT RIGHT IN THE BLOODY NOTES that i don't condone slavery i never had the intention to insult anyone i was just trying to have a civilized conversation that is ALL
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #86 - October 13, 2014, 08:46 PM

    See, you are acting as though we insulted you, whereas we are just criticizing your hypothesis.  
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #87 - October 13, 2014, 08:48 PM

    what do you expect for me to leave islam Huh?Huh?Huh?? i was just presenting a hypothesis nothing more but then later somehow this turned into a debate when i SAID THAT RIGHT IN THE BLOODY NOTES that i don't condone slavery i never had the intention to insult anyone i was just trying to have a civilized conversation that is ALL

    No need to get angry, Ahmed. I am not suggesting you leave your faith, but do not expect of me to swallow your arguments for the sake of your religion.
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #88 - October 13, 2014, 08:53 PM

    See, you are acting as though we insulted you, whereas we are just criticizing your hypothesis.  


    xtremestr  said

    (Do you not see how twisted and sick that logic is?)

    so i took that as he/she insulted me by saying my logic is sick and twisted and misunderstand me i accepted all the criticism and i openly said my hypothesis can be wrong but what i receved from now was nothing but quotes about slavery and how slaves are humulated in islam which has nothing to do with my topic
  • The Hypothesis or slavery allowance (if that is how it called) in Islam
     Reply #89 - October 13, 2014, 08:55 PM

    No need to get angry, Ahmed. I am not suggesting you leave your faith, but do not expect of me to swallow your arguments for the sake of your religion.


    I'm not angry it's just this turned into a debate which i didn't planned to
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