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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4950 - October 19, 2018, 07:02 PM

    Quote
    But the fact that hgr is only used once (maybe twice) in the entire (enormous) Safaitic corpus in that sense does make me hope that the scholars will have another look.  Words don't get transferred to the next generation if not frequently used...


    I really don't know anything about this topic. You are more knowledgeable than me. My comment was only saying that it does not necessarily refute Kerr, but it certainly undermines his theory, in so much as he attempted to refute the traditional picture by saying that the root hjr does not mean migration or transfer and thus, it can't mean the migration of an individual from a city to another. That's all.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4951 - October 19, 2018, 08:15 PM

    Mhaggraye,

    Because your name is at stake here I'll continue this topic that is way over my head but with Kerr's own explanation:
    Quote
    I have discussed this term at length in a forthcoming essay (“Annus Hegiræ vel
    Annus (H)Agarorum? Etymologische und vergleichende Anmerkungen zum
    Anfang der islamischen Jahreszählung” in: K.-H. Ohlig and M. Gross (eds.),
    Inârah 7 [Berlin–Tübingen, 2014]). Briefly, the traditional account of “Muḥammad’s”
    life tells us that in June of 622, upon getting wind of an assassination plot
    against him at Mecca, he escaped with some of his loyal followers and eventually
    made his way to Yathrib/Medina. The traditionally accepted reference for this
    event is in Sura 9: 100 (cited above). In Islam, this event is viewed as so significant
    a turning-point that the Islamic calendar commences with the “year of the exile”
    (sanat or Âam al-hiǧra, not referred to in the Qur’ān). Traditionally, the ÂÌÆüéÏ„ –
    muhaǧirūn (from a supposed root √hǧr “to emigrate, go into exile”) are
    interpreted as the “émigrés” who left with “Muḥammad.” However, several
    problems arise from this traditional interpretation. First, the Qur’ānic quotation is
    vague at best. Second, as the Qur’ān is by all accounts the first book in Arabic, we
    lack internal comparative evidence for the meanings of key words as this essay
    demonstrates. The root haǧara is only attested in South Semitic in the meaning of
    “city(-dweller)” and in Hebrew and Aramaic as the name of Abraham’s concubine,
    Hagar. This datum, the lack of comparative Semitic support, is cause for suspicion.
    We know about the Islamic dating system, which begins with the “year of the
    exile,” from contemporary evidence in Arabic, Syriac, Greek and even Chinese
    sources. The Syriac and Greek sources usually refer to a “year of the Arabs.” We
    further know that in Late Antique literatures, one of the many synonyms for
    Arabs is “Hagarite” (along with Ishmaelite and Saracen, for example), and that in
    Syriac we find a derivation æû
    ÿ
    û
    ˚ƒ õÂ – mhaggrāyā (also borrowed into Greek as
    μαγα£οί). An Greek inscription of the Caliph MuÂawiyah from Hammat Gader,
    dated in Classical fashion, includes the year of the colony, the indiction years for
    taxation (indicating that there still was some association with Constantinople,
    imagined or real) and the year of the local Metropolitan. In addition, it is dated
    “year 42 κατὰ Ἀ£αβας” which, based on the other dating systems, denotes the year
    664. Arabic sources, such as an inscription of MuÂawiyah from Taif (modern
    Saudi Arabia), as well as Chinese sources, mention only the year, without
    reference to the dating system employed. Indeed, Muʿawiyah’s inscriptions have
    no Islamic content whatsoever, posing additional serious questions about the
    traditional narrative. From the comparative evidence we have briefly touched
    upon here, it seems clear that the ÂÌÆüéωflç – al-muhāǧirūn are Arabs (æû
    ÿ
    û
    ˚ƒ õÂ
    – mhaggrāyā) and not otherwise unknown ‘émigrés


    from:  http://www.almuslih.org/Library/Kerr,%20R%20-%20Aramaisms%20in%20the%20Quran%20and%20their%20Significance.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4952 - October 19, 2018, 08:41 PM

    Quote
    Because your name is at stake.


    Haha. I guess I will have to change my name. Any suggestions?

    Kerr's argument is very interesting. Will have to think about it. All I can say is that it is certainly possible.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4953 - October 19, 2018, 08:51 PM

    Mahgraye,

    Keep it!!!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4954 - October 19, 2018, 09:01 PM

    Haha, okay. Will keep it.

    Man, Kerr's article is full of insight. He provides evidevne for the Nazorean hypotheis.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4955 - October 20, 2018, 07:41 AM

    Mahgraye,

    Indeed, Kerr's article contains a lot of logical info... He starts off showing the link between Arabic script and Aramaic script... No mention of Nabatean...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4956 - October 20, 2018, 09:54 AM

    Quote
    Stephen of Alexandria where he writes that an Arab merchant around the year 630 CE said to him:

    "In the desert of Ethrib there had appeared a certain man from the so-called tribe of Quraysh of the genealogy of Ishamel whose name was Muhammad and who said he was a Prophet. He appeared in the month of Pharmuti, which is called April by the Romans, of the 932nd year from the beginning of Philip. He has brought a new expression and a strange teaching, promising to those who accept him victories in wars, domination over enemies and delights in paradise."

    Source: De Stephano Alexandrino, Horoscope (21 edition, Hermann Usener, Bonn: 1880).

    By Ethrib he means Yathrib (or what was later called Madina), the 932nd year of Philip corresponds to the year 620 CE. This Arab merchant does not know about Muslim beliefs, but knows enough details that correspond to the core historical beliefs of Muslims:

    1. That Muhammad peace be upon him was a Prophet.
    2. That he migrated to Madinah.
    3. That there were wars since the migration.


    Thoughts on this?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4957 - October 20, 2018, 09:56 AM

    Quote
    Indeed, Kerr's article contains a lot of logical info... He starts off showing the link between Arabic script and Aramaic script... No mention of Nabatean...


    Where does he say this? Pages?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4958 - October 20, 2018, 10:07 AM

    Maghraye,

    p148 and further... doesnt deny Nabatean roots, just doesn't mention them since obviously the origins of Arabic script lie elsewhere according to Kerr.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4959 - October 20, 2018, 10:12 AM

    He only discusses the provenance of the Quranic text rather the origins of the script per se (whther Syriac or Nabataean). He even says the Quran emerged in the region of the Nabataeans. He also cited Macdonald.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4960 - October 20, 2018, 10:14 AM

    page?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4961 - October 20, 2018, 10:17 AM

    p. 196.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4962 - October 20, 2018, 10:28 AM

    Maghraye,

    Script is an important part of his argument. He refers to Syriac not Nabatean script as connection with the Quranic script.
    Late Nabateans wrote in Aramaic script too, no?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4963 - October 20, 2018, 10:38 AM

    There is a difference between Aramaic and Syriac, I think. I do not know whether he specifies Syriac or not, which would be another thing totally.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4964 - October 20, 2018, 11:08 AM

    There is a difference between Aramaic and Syriac, I think. I do not know whether he specifies Syriac or not, which would be another thing totally.

    Origin of a language  of a   tribe  and its connection to the neighboring tribes and their languages is a very interesting subject ..

    I wonder these  two languages Aramaic and Syriac  do they have common origins and  don't they share many words with that   modern Assyrian language??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4965 - October 20, 2018, 12:01 PM

    Syriac is a type of Aramaic: "the liturgical language of local churches"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4966 - October 20, 2018, 12:41 PM

    Syriac is a type of Aramaic: "the liturgical language of local churches"

    Hi mundi I come from fields basic science  which involves  Medicine, Biology, Chemistry and Physics..   ........   So  here in this forum because of you guys .... I casually read the links of publications you guys put up here  from journals.... I  am appalled to read some of these publications  that have ZERO VALUE  and add zero value to the field of inquiry . ..........which is Origins of Quran..

    I guess these guys add numbers to their CV and increase  the% of their job security by writing nonsense publications..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4967 - October 20, 2018, 12:58 PM

    Writings and Writing: Investigations in Islamic Text and Script Hardcover – Illustrated, 10 Dec 2013  by Robert M. Kerr (Editor), Thomas Milo (Editor)

    that appears to be good book to scan through  on the subject of  Origins of  Quran...

    and dear mundi  this publication  from
      by Robert M. Kerr  Aramaisms in Quran and their significance    appears to be great work..  it is worth reading...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4968 - October 20, 2018, 03:04 PM

    Yeez,

    I dont always get what you mean but I am enjoying the "Aramaism" article of Kerr too. I thought i already read it, but there is a lot to discover I didn't realise before. He has here a summary of discussion points all grouped in his article. He really is a wonderful scholar. Weird he is not cited more frequently (except negatively by Shadel) by others.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4969 - October 20, 2018, 04:38 PM

    His two upcoming articles will surely be cited more often. Just wait and see.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4970 - October 20, 2018, 04:53 PM

    You know more Magraye, tell us!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4971 - October 20, 2018, 06:25 PM

    He will soon publish his findings on the Inscription of Zuhayr and also publish something on the Quranic milieu where he will discuss certain topics in detail.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4972 - October 20, 2018, 07:00 PM

    Yeez,

    I don't always get what you mean

     Cheesy  that is OK mundi ., that complain is NOT new to me ..lol., many said that in this forum alone.. but some folks like you can ask me  again if you guys don't get it what I am saying


    Quote
    .....but I am enjoying the "Aramaism" article of Kerr too. I thought i already read it, but there is a lot to discover I didn't realise before. He has here a summary of discussion points all grouped in his article. He really is a wonderful scholar. Weird he is not cited more frequently (except negatively by Shadel) by others...


    indeed he is...  well he is NOT cited because he doesn't work in UK or in AMRIKA...



    I think he also seems to come to that conclusion that there was No Muhammad .. The Prophet of Islam... and I wonder when I will hear from him..  that Altara   song   "No Mecca..No Madina. so  No Muhammad" in 5th and 6th century Islam..

    Damn look at this

    http://microformguides.gale.com/Data/Download/1019000R.pdf

     I think Books  and publications  on Islam surpasses all books of all faiths together....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4973 - October 20, 2018, 08:10 PM

    He has more than one publication outlining his reasons as to why Muhammad did not exist.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4974 - October 20, 2018, 08:22 PM

    He has more than one publication outlining his reasons as to why Muhammad did not exist.

    I think he is wrong and deluded or may be influenced by Catholic and other Islam haters

    https://iuni-saarland.academia.edu/RobertKerr

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4975 - October 20, 2018, 08:25 PM

    Quote
    I think he is wrong and deluded or may be influenced by Catholic and other Islam haters.


    Oh! How so, if I may ask? You surely agree with him? I assume you were being sarcastic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4976 - October 20, 2018, 08:58 PM

    Oh! How so, if I may ask? You surely agree with him? I assume you were being sarcastic.

    well  just a hunch dear  Mahgraye  .. i am still reading from that post you wrote for me on "SCHOLARS OF ISLAM & THEIR WORKS"


    well let me also read  this on the way

    The Koran did not originate in Mecca or Medina’ .pdf


    The destruction of inscriptions in  Mecca is even more  scandalous than that  of statues of  Buddha in Afghanistan’ – Robert Kerr
    .

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4977 - October 20, 2018, 09:15 PM

    Quote
    The destruction of inscriptions in  Mecca is even more  scandalous than that  of statues of  Buddha in Afghanistan’ – Robert Kerr


    Yes, indeed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4978 - October 21, 2018, 10:01 AM

    Yeez,

    I thought i already read it, but there is a lot to discover I didn't realise before.


    It is important to come back to what you have read ,you always discover things that you did not see/realize before because you have read other things after.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4979 - October 21, 2018, 01:52 PM

    Quote
    It is important to come back to what you have read ,you always discover things that you did not see/realize before because you have read other things after.


    Indeed.
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