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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8130 - October 27, 2019, 02:54 PM

    Quote
    your winks are not helping me and you have not answered the question dear Altara . Question is
    Quote from: yeezevee on Today at 02:00 PM
    which one?? Kufic Quran ??


    I speak of script as highly defective.
    512
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html
    568
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/harran.html
    This one (the inscriptions) is particularly highly defective...
     This ma'il script (the Quranic one of the Petropolitanus, Sanaa, etc) inherit from the script of the two inscription above.
    The Kufic script as well.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8131 - October 27, 2019, 02:56 PM

    If the conversion to Islam of quasi all the Arabs would have been quick, yes. One observes the contrary. Wink


    what do you mean ., you mean if All Arabs were converted in to Islam then their kids and kth/kins  might have burned all the Arabic literature ?  is that what you mean ?

    Nope that is not needed.....  As we know it was not easy to write things during that time . If those who grabbed power in the name of Islam  did that .. then nominal Arab Christian folks could have done nothing .. At that time you/ A group  need to control /eliminate some 4 to 500 folks .. that are in power and those who supported intellectually .. then you can control whole nation...  and and burn few of those ancient manuscripts

    left out Arab Christians  could have done nothing .. 


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8132 - October 27, 2019, 03:00 PM

    I speak of script as highly defective.
    512
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html
    568
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/harran.html
    This one (the inscriptions) is particularly highly defective...
     This ma'il script (the Quranic one of the Petropolitanus, Sanaa, etc) inherit from the script of the two inscription above.
    The Kufic script as well.

     I am not interested in  Islamic-awareness.org stories.,     

    So  what??   why are you going in to  the years 512 and 568  and and rock inscriptions??    Was Quran there at that time??

    So what?   some semi educated Arab might have scribbled something on some rock .. what is that has to do with Arabic Bible and Arabic Quran??

    well I am writing like a devil and devils advocate dear Altara  but Questions can be framed..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8133 - October 27, 2019, 03:09 PM

    Yeez, I think I write clearly in responding to you. Reread me carefully.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8134 - October 27, 2019, 05:19 PM

    Quote
    no texts of the Gospel in Arabic were available to either Muslims or Christians. They became available for the first time, for both liturgical and apologetical purposes, in the ninth century, in Palestine, under Melkite auspices. Any earlier versions which may have been made in Arabia prior to Islam have left only faint traces behind them, and were unknown to Christians in the conquered territories


    Yes.


    This statement from Griffiths isn’t necessarily incompatible with the existence of earlier translations of biblical texts in Arabic. That texts were apparently not available to Muslims doesn’t automatically mean that they weren’t available to the authors of quranic texts a few generations earlier. That texts were apparently not available to 8th and 9th century Christians as the literary language of the Near East shifted from Greek, CPA and Syriac to Arabic doesn’t automatically mean that they weren’t available to Arabic speaking Christians elsewhere in the 6th and 7th centuries. The argument that there weren’t any early Arabic translations of biblical texts is a perfectly reasonable hypothesis. I just can’t see that it’s conclusive or that it can be proved.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8135 - October 27, 2019, 06:07 PM

    Quote
    This statement from Griffiths isn’t necessarily incompatible with the existence of earlier translations of biblical texts in Arabic.

    I think it is:
    Griffith :
    Quote
    Any earlier versions which may have been made in Arabia prior to Islam have left only faint traces behind them, and were unknown to Christians in the conquered territories


    What is unknown does not exist.Christians were not aware, therefore it does not existed for them.
    That it existed outside, I'm rather dubious;what is the point of translating Biblical texts if what you translate is not distributed?
    To pose the question it is to respond it.
    Quote
    That texts were apparently not available to Muslims doesn’t automatically mean that they weren’t available to the authors of quranic texts a few generations earlier.


    Why not. But there is no sources, no souvenirs, etc. With this, I think it should be step aside.

    Quote
    That texts were apparently not available to 8th and 9th century Christians as the literary language of the Near East shifted from Greek, CPA and Syriac to Arabic doesn’t automatically mean that they weren’t available to Arabic speaking Christians elsewhere in the 6th and 7th centuries.


    I think yes, it does mean. Not necessarily "automatically ". But with some work in this topic one realizes that it is very unlikely. As there is no source about them, it seems (to me) very implausible that they existed in Arabic. They would have spread for the Christianization of Arabophone people, at least in the West.

    Quote
    The argument that there weren’t any early Arabic translations of biblical texts is a perfectly reasonable hypothesis. I just can’t see that it’s conclusive or that it can be proved.


    I (personally) consider that from the moment where there is nothing, like in this case, intellectual constructions have to be put aside. It is not history any more. That it cannot be proved, yes, of course. But it is such implausible for (very) good reasons, that it is necessarily conclusive to construct a landscape of the emergence of the Quran. Furthermore diglossia (Syriac/Arabic) can be argued instead of translation.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8136 - October 27, 2019, 07:08 PM

    Furthermore diglossia (Syriac/Arabic) can be argued instead of translation.


    I wouldn’t disagree with this and I’d imagine diglossia would have been the norm for people capable of reading and writing in Arabic at the time (pre-Islam). Or maybe bilingualism in Arabic and a form of spoken Aramaic, along with literacy in Syriac (cf being bilingual in early English and vernacular Latin and literate in classical Latin).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8137 - October 27, 2019, 10:57 PM

    All this takes us a long way from Hijaz.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8138 - October 28, 2019, 01:35 PM

    All this takes us a long way from Hijaz.

    what happened Altara ?  you are going back to Hijaz  and  singing where s  Mecca Medina Muhammad Zam zam in early Islam song?  I ask you why?

    You left that  origins of Arabic language and origins of Quran  subject on  diglossia or Triglossia of languages such as  .....Syriac/Arabic..or Aramaic/Arabic  or Hebrew/Arabic .. or Persian/Arabic  .. etc.. etc..

    and and jumping back to that pet song Mecca Medina Muhammad Zam zam ....lol.... Origins of Arabic language before Quran or in those early periods of Islam is a mysterious subject

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8139 - October 28, 2019, 01:38 PM

    Yeez, I think I write clearly in responding to you. Reread me carefully.

    well I know you write clearly ., I am one of those guys .. may be I am not formulating my questions properly .. so  some of your posts/responses look very Quranic.. very cryptic  such as
    I speak of script as highly defective.
    512
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html
    568
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/harran.html
    This one (the inscriptions) is particularly highly defective...
     This ma'il script (the Quranic one of the Petropolitanus, Sanaa, etc) inherit from the script of the two inscription above.
    The Kufic script as well.

    anyways that is my problem

    with best
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8140 - October 28, 2019, 01:44 PM

    Thread from Marijn van Putten: https://mobile.twitter.com/Tweetistorian/status/1188797350438932480
    Quote
    Hey everyone! This is @PhDniX, the coming week I'll be posting a series of threads that will outline the history of the Quranic text. Where did it come from? How was it spread? What can we learn about its early history? And how does it relate to the pre-Islamic period?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8141 - October 28, 2019, 02:08 PM



    Quote
    https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1188807487933341702

    His "Ageless Qur'an, Timeless Text" is a very impressive work. 


    well not sure about that unless he is.....



    read that book and tell me about that tweet and HOW IMPRESSIVE IS THAT BOOK

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8142 - October 28, 2019, 02:32 PM

    Thread from Marijn van Putten: https://mobile.twitter.com/Tweetistorian/status/1188797350438932480
     the coming week I'll be posting a series of threads that will outline the history of the Quranic text.


    That is the (very) big issue.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8143 - October 28, 2019, 02:35 PM

    well I know you write clearly ., I am one of those guys .. may be I am not formulating my questions properly .. so  some of your posts/responses look very Quranic.. very cryptic  such as anyways that is my problem
    with best
    yeezevee


    I cannot see how to explain more clearly.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8144 - October 28, 2019, 06:23 PM

    Gerald Hawting - The Rise of Islam

    https://is.muni.cz/el/1423/jaro2018/BSS474/um/choueiri_9-67.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8145 - October 29, 2019, 06:04 AM

    I cannot see how to explain more clearly.

    No   you can  dear Altara., you can write in detail ..  Now it is different that you do not want to write here  because you want to publish it.   And I agree with that .. because PLAGIARISM  DISEASE  IS  HIGHLY PREVALENT IN 21st century ..,  in fact it is there in Quran itself.,  and you have every right to protect your ideas .. Questions on "Mecca..Medina,,Muhammad.. Zam zam" is  novel  idea

    Again what is there on those rock inscriptions that you mentioned is irrelevant to Quran the book 

    512 https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html

     https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/images/dont_copy_please.png

    568 .....https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscr

     https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/images/dont_copy_please.png

    what you see above is very little to do with what is there in Quran.,   uthman Quran .. or whatever Quran.. which may have been published around 680-690...  and it appears ., what is there  in uthman Quran(the contenet) is different from what we have now  the present Egyptian publication

    Quote
    Umayyad Period (44/661–132/750) – Hijazi script

    The earliest known manuscripts of the Quran are collectively called the Hijazi script, and are mostly associated with the Umayyad period.[96]

    Most of the fundamental reform to the manuscripts of the Quran took place under Abd al-Malik, the fifth Umayyad caliph (65/685–86/705).[96] Under Abd al-Malik's reign, Abu'l Aswad al-Du'ali (died 688) founded the Arabic grammar and invented the system of placing large colored dots to indicate the tashkil. The Umayyad governor al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf al-Thaqafi later enforced this system.[97]

    During this time the construction of the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem in 72/691–92 was done, which was complete with Quranic inscriptions. The inscriptions on the Dome of the Rock in fact represent the earliest known dated passages from the Quran. In these inscriptions, many letters are already provided with diacritical points


    You See we don't have any good reasons to believe  and connect that what you call as  "highly defective script"  with the script that you have in Quran.. comparisons are irrelevant for many simple reasons 

    Book is BOOK ..rock inscriptions are ROCK INSCRIPTIONS ., it is funny those png pictures of that website are copy protected  AS IF THEY DIG IT

    Roots of Modern Arabic Script:  From Musnad to Jazm by  Saad D. Abulhab ., Baruch College, CUNY

    Early Islamic Inscriptions Near Ṭāʾif in the Ḥijāz by George C. Miles., ., Journal of Near Eastern Studies Vol. 7, No. 4 (Oct., 1948), pp. 236-242

     The Inscription of Zuhayr, the oldest Islamic Inscription (AH 24/AD 644) by Robert  Hoyland   

    they  are good ones to read w.r.t Rock inscriptions and Arabic language development .. much better than that islamic-awareness.org

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8146 - October 29, 2019, 06:41 AM



    An early arabic inscription from Petra carrying diacritic marks by Omar Al-Ghul.,  Syria. Archéologie, Art et histoire  Année 2004  81  pp. 105-118

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8147 - October 29, 2019, 07:47 AM

    Has MVP found the archetype of the Uthman Quran?

    "I made a full table for this specific phrase, but I could have done it with literally hundreds of other cases. The Quran is full of words that can be spelled in two ways.

    The manuscripts I examined are so early that it is likely that this Archetype is indeed Uthman's Quran.
    https://twitter.com/Tweetistorian/status/1188856408177070088
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8148 - October 29, 2019, 01:35 PM

    Quote
    what you see above is very little to do with what is there in Quran.,   uthman Quran .. or whatever Quran.. which may have been published around 680-690...


    Have all to do.
    The 512 and 568 inscriptions are written in the Quranic script of the Petropolitanus.On stone (of course...).
    It is the same "highly defective script" script than the script that one have in the first manuscripts of the Quran.
    Except here (512 and 568) it is on stones.
    Quote
    they  are good ones to read w.r.t Rock inscriptions and Arabic language development .. much better than that islamic-awareness.org

     
     
     islamic-awareness.org is not responsible of the 512 and 568 inscriptions. (yawn...)
    Thanks to stop acting like a child with this site...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8149 - October 29, 2019, 01:49 PM

    Have all to do.
    The 512 and 568 inscriptions are written in the Quranic script of the Petropolitanus.On stone (of course...).
    It is the same "highly defective script" script than the script that one have in the first manuscripts of the Quran.Except here (512 and 568) it is on stones.


    What  first manuscripts of the Quran?   where are they??..  which one of the 7 earliest  manuscripts that you see in this post

    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg885289#msg885289

    falls in to that category of  first manuscripts of the Quran?  First of all if they were there they were NOT QURAN MANUSCRIPTS.. at best they were Arabic bible manuscripts or (( " bible stories written in  highly defective arabic  script"  or whatever you call))  .. you can not call them as Quran manuscripts

    Quote

     islamic-awareness.org is not responsible of the 512 and 568 inscriptions. (yawn...)
    Thanks to stop acting like a child with this site...


    who said that site is responsible for those inscriptions altara?  .. they are copy/pasting .... and well yawning, heckling  and winking does not help in discussions..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8150 - October 29, 2019, 02:19 PM

    It is the same script. The Quranic one of the Petropolitanus is a direct heir of the 512 and 568 inscription already posted here several times.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8151 - October 29, 2019, 02:34 PM

    It is the same script. The Quranic one of the Petropolitanus is a direct heir of the 512 and 568 inscription already posted here several times.


    you mean codex Parisino-petropolitanus?? the top one at this link ??

      https://madainproject.com/historical_quranic_manuscripts 

     that Quran manuscript is supposed to be from 7th /or 8th century

    and what is that has to do with those rock inscriptions?  you yourself stating those rock stuff as defective script...  what  that defective nomadic stuff  has to do with Quran manuscripts?    well take an example.,   your favorite site on that 512 rock inscription   https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html   says
    Quote
    Contents

    The inscription reads (after Kugener):

    With the help of God (الاله)! Sergius, son of Amat Manaf, and Tobi, son of Imru'l-qais and Sergius, son of Saʿd, and Sitr, and Shouraih.

    Location

    Zebed, south of Aleppo, Syria.

    What is that has to do with Quran?  do you see that statement in Quran?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8152 - October 29, 2019, 04:11 PM

    Another MVP thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Tweetistorian/status/1189209625247338498
    Quote
    The idea that the original archetype of the Quran had nothing but the bare Rasm seems to be a 9th century back-projection onto the early period. While vowels are indeed late additions, the consonantal dotting appears (sparsely) in early manuscripts. Later manuscripts have fewer.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8153 - October 29, 2019, 04:13 PM

    MVP thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Tweetistorian/status/1189172297199996928
    Quote
    There is good material evidence that all Quranic manuscripts descend from a single archetype. But what about the traditional story that four copies were made and were sent to Medina, Syria, Kufa and Basra? Is there material evidence for that?

    The answer is yes!

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8154 - October 29, 2019, 04:53 PM

    Quote
    The idea that the original archetype of the Quran had nothing but the bare Rasm seems to be a 9th century back-projection onto the early period. While vowels are indeed late additions, the consonantal dotting appears (sparsely) in early manuscripts. Later manuscripts have fewer.


    Yes.Sparsely dotting. Therefore had nothing more than the rasm.

    Quote
    There is good material evidence that all Quranic manuscripts descend from a single archetype.

     
    That is what I think as well.The one of the authors, interpolated afterwards.

    Quote
    But what about the traditional story that four copies were made and were sent to Medina, Syria, Kufa and Basra? Is there material evidence for that?

    Not necessarily.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8155 - October 29, 2019, 05:08 PM

    Quote
    https://mobile.twitter.com/Tweetistorian/status/1189172297199996928

    Tweeting Historians@Tweetistorian

    There is good material evidence that all Quranic manuscripts descend from a single archetype. But what about the traditional story that four copies were made and were sent to Medina, Syria, Kufa and Basra? Is there material evidence for that?

    The answer is yes!


    that is all right .. but Important questions are

    1), what year  were they sent to  Medina, Syria, Kufa and Basra?

    2),   did those Quranic manuscripts had all those 6200  or so verse in it  or not??

    3).  did those manuscripts had these  verses ?
     
    Surah At-Tawba verse101,
    Surah At-Tawba verse120
    Surah Al-Munaafiqoon, , Verse 8

    and   is there any conclusive evidence to check the presence of   above verses in those manuscripts ?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8156 - October 29, 2019, 05:44 PM

    MVP: https://mobile.twitter.com/Tweetistorian/status/1189213731999358978
    Quote
    as for the question of whether the text is there purely as an "assistance" of memorization: I don't actually think so. The ambiguities tend to get overstated. The papyri (that are similarly low on dots) must be assumed to be intelligible to the addressees as well.

    Just because of our lack of training in a writing tradition that is very low on dots, causes us to be easily confused. But if you are familiar with the genre, such texts can become quite intelligible.

    Context helps a lot too. Just because bayt 'house' and bint 'daughter' are written the same without dots, does not mean that it is particularly ambiguous which of the two words you're dealing with in a text. Doesn't happen often that both of those words would make sense!

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8157 - October 29, 2019, 05:55 PM

    Thread on the effects of ambiguity: https://mobile.twitter.com/MayShaddel/status/1188056813222187008
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8158 - October 29, 2019, 06:11 PM

    Quote
    as for the question of whether the text is there purely as an "assistance" of memorization: I don't actually think so


    Of course.It is a text. There is no oral tradition, no oral proclamation before the basaltic Mecca, etc.

    Quote
    The papyri (that are similarly low on dots) must be assumed to be intelligible to the addressees as well.

    Yes.
    Quote
    Just because of our lack of training in a writing tradition that is very low on dots, causes us to be easily confused. But if you are familiar with the genre, such texts can become quite intelligible.


    Yes.

    Quote
    Context helps a lot too. Just because bayt 'house' and bint 'daughter' are written the same without dots, does not mean that it is particularly ambiguous which of the two words you're dealing with in a text. Doesn't happen often that both of those words would make sense!


    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8159 - October 29, 2019, 10:19 PM

    MVP thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Tweetistorian/status/1189285352680448003
    Quote
    When talking about Quranic manuscripts, we often talk about different 'styles' of writing. These palaeographical styles can given an indication of the age of a manuscript. This short thread will give a very short introduction of the different Quranic styles.

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