Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Gaza assault
by zeca
Today at 07:13 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
November 24, 2024, 06:05 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
November 22, 2024, 02:51 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 22, 2024, 06:45 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
November 21, 2024, 05:07 PM

New Britain
November 20, 2024, 05:41 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
November 20, 2024, 09:02 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 1494759 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 12 13 1415 16 ... 370 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #390 - July 22, 2015, 05:58 AM


     Oh no. Cry
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #391 - July 22, 2015, 06:50 AM

    'Oldest' Koran fragments found in Birmingham University

    What may be the world's oldest fragments of the Koran have been found by the University of Birmingham.

    Radiocarbon dating found the manuscript to be at least 1,370 years old, making it among the earliest in existence.
    The pages of the Muslim holy text had remained unrecognised in the university library for almost a century.

    The British Library's expert on such manuscripts, Dr Muhammad Isa Waley, said this "exciting discovery" would make Muslims "rejoice".

    The manuscript had been kept with a collection of other Middle Eastern books and documents, without being identified as one of the oldest fragments of the Koran in the world.


    Oldest texts

    When a PhD researcher looked more closely at these pages it was decided to carry out a radiocarbon dating test and the results were "startling".

    The university's director of special collections, Susan Worrall, said researchers had not expected "in our wildest dreams" that it would be so old.

    "Finding out we had one of the oldest fragments of the Koran in the whole world has been fantastically exciting."

    The tests, carried out by the Oxford University Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit, showed that the fragments, written on sheep or goat skin, were among the very oldest surviving texts of the Koran.

    These tests provide a range of dates, showing that, with a probability of more than 95%, the parchment was from between 568 and 645.

    "They could well take us back to within a few years of the actual founding of Islam," said David Thomas, the university's professor of Christianity and Islam.

    "According to Muslim tradition, the Prophet Muhammad received the revelations that form the Koran, the scripture of Islam, between the years 610 and 632, the year of his death."

    The person who actually wrote it could well have known the Prophet Muhammad... he would maybe have heard him preach

    Prof David Thomas, University of Birmingham

    Prof Thomas says the dating of the Birmingham folios would mean it was quite possible that the person who had written them would have been alive at the time of the Prophet Muhammad.

    "The person who actually wrote it could well have known the Prophet Muhammad. He would have seen him probably, he would maybe have heard him preach. He may have known him personally - and that really is quite a thought to conjure with," he says.

    First-hand witness

    Prof Thomas says that some of the passages of the Koran were written down on parchment, stone, palm leaves and the shoulder blades of camels - and a final version, collected in book form, was completed in about 650.

    He says that "the parts of the Koran that are written on this parchment can, with a degree of confidence, be dated to less than two decades after Muhammad's death".

    "These portions must have been in a form that is very close to the form of the Koran read today, supporting the view that the text has undergone little or no alteration and that it can be dated to a point very close to the time it was believed to be revealed."

    The manuscript, written in "Hijazi script", an early form of written Arabic, becomes one of the oldest known fragments of the Koran.

    Because radiocarbon dating creates a range of possible ages, there is a handful of other manuscripts in public and private collections which overlap. So this makes it impossible to say that any is definitively the oldest.

    But the latest possible date of the Birmingham discovery - 645 - would put it among the very oldest.

    'Precious survivor'

    Dr Waley, curator for such manuscripts at the British Library, said "these two folios, in a beautiful and surprisingly legible Hijazi hand, almost certainly date from the time of the first three caliphs".

    The first three caliphs were leaders in the Muslim community between about 632 and 656.

    Dr Waley says that under the third caliph, Uthman ibn Affan, copies of the "definitive edition" were distributed.

    "The Muslim community was not wealthy enough to stockpile animal skins for decades, and to produce a complete Mushaf, or copy, of the Holy Koran required a great many of them."

    Dr Waley suggests that the manuscript found by Birmingham is a "precious survivor" of a copy from that era or could be even earlier.

    "In any case, this - along with the sheer beauty of the content and the surprisingly clear Hijazi script - is news to rejoice Muslim hearts."

    The manuscript is part of the Mingana Collection of more than 3,000 Middle Eastern documents gathered in the 1920s by Alphonse Mingana, a Chaldean priest born near Mosul in modern-day Iraq.

    He was sponsored to take collecting trips to the Middle East by Edward Cadbury, who was part of the chocolate-making dynasty.

    The local Muslim community has already expressed its delight at the discovery in their city and the university says the manuscript will be put on public display.

    "When I saw these pages I was very moved. There were tears of joy and emotion in my eyes. And I'm sure people from all over the UK will come to Birmingham to have a glimpse of these pages," said Muhammad Afzal, chairman of Birmingham Central Mosque.

    Prof Thomas says it will show people in Birmingham that they have a "treasure that is second to none".


    --------

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33436021
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #392 - July 22, 2015, 06:53 AM

    I posted that in the Qu'ranic studies thread just now. Sounds as if they are following the traditional approach atm. Waley guy is quite biased I would say!

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #393 - July 22, 2015, 07:32 AM

    Quote
    Has it been reported anywhere which passages of the Qur'an the fragments actually reproduce? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33436021


    @holland_tom

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/623751800127098880


    Quote
    @holland_tom @BBCNews I think they said suras 18-20 on Today


    @NJ_Davies

    https://twitter.com/NJ_Davies/status/623754135842725888

    -----------------------

    Quote
    The evident sacrality of the qur'anic text from its beginnings is what makes it so valuable a source for deducing Islam's possible origins.


    @holland_tom

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/623751272655622144

    ----------------------

    Quote
    As with other carbon datings, the intriguing possibility is raised that some qur'anic fragments may antedate Muhammad http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33436021


    @holland_tom

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/623750830450180096
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #394 - July 22, 2015, 07:35 AM

    Quote
    @holland_tom and of course the article fails to clearly point out it may have preceeded him. Were the journalists scared of a backlash?


    @davegillen

    https://twitter.com/davegillen/status/623752922891964416

    >>>

    Quote
    @davegillen @holland_tom Or just thick and not able/thoughtful enough to research other theories out there making articles uncritical!


    me - @gw_emily

    https://twitter.com/gw_emily/status/623755259962355712
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #395 - July 22, 2015, 07:40 AM

    Quote
    If the Birmingham Q features Sura 18, then it's post-630. The Dhul Qarnayn passage clearly derives from the 'Alexander Legend', dated 630.


    @holland_tom

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/623758830611091456
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #396 - July 22, 2015, 07:43 AM

    Quote
    The definitive work on the Alexander Legend in the Qur'an is by Kevin van Bladel, p. 175 here: https://www.academia.edu/4673572/The_Quran_in_its_Historical_Context_-_Reynolds_et_al


    @holland_tom

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/623759921893482496
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #397 - July 22, 2015, 10:25 AM

    Recommend that the obituary should get its own thread

    There's a thread of sorts here: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=29035.0 but I think it passed by without most people noticing. A new thread would be a good idea if someone wants to start it.

    Judith Herrin's memoir of Patricia Crone: https://www.opendemocracy.net/judith-herrin/patricia-crone-brief-memoir
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #398 - July 22, 2015, 10:40 AM

    Thanks Lily and yes Zeca it would be good to have just one thread to track thoughts on this find.

    I think this thread is a good one. Perhaps mods could merge them all here.

    I would be fascinated to hear Zaotars thoughts and indeed those of current scholars on this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #399 - July 22, 2015, 12:27 PM

    The script in the picture shown on the article is remarkably legible. It only takes a few moments to notice that it is Surah Taha. It also appears to have the dots on some words - dots that were a later addition to Arabic script. Is it possible that the parchment itself is as old as discovered, but the writing is not?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #400 - July 22, 2015, 12:50 PM

    Legibility isn't unusual for old manuscripts on parchment - it is one of the best media for long term preservation of text. Go and look at some of the old manuscripts (of similar age to this newly discovered one) at the British library - some of them look almost like new.

    I was wondering if it possible to carbon date the ink separately, but unfortunately it doesn't seem that it is. It probably is possible to determine the ink composition though which may help date it. I'm sure that the document will be given a thorough going over to date the writing style etc now that it has come to light - I'll be interested to see what emerges. I'm a bit of an old manuscript fan  Smiley
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #401 - July 22, 2015, 12:56 PM

    ......

    ..............I was wondering if it possible to carbon date the ink separately, but unfortunately it doesn't seem that it is. It probably is possible to determine the ink composition though which may help date it..................



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_literature
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #402 - July 22, 2015, 02:22 PM

    If it is accepted that the Koran was collated from scraps, bones and leaves etc is it therefore guaranteed whole chunks will be older than 600 odd?

    And what do we know about where this was written?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #403 - July 22, 2015, 04:25 PM

    Gabriel Said Reynolds is saying on Twitter that the Quran might be "older than it should be."
  • Oldest Quran Found In... Birmingham.
     Reply #404 - July 22, 2015, 05:29 PM

    Yes!  I knew it! Birmingham really is the new Mecca.


    http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/22/europe/uk-quran-birmingham-manuscript/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #405 - July 22, 2015, 05:32 PM

    Added your thread to the discussion that's already out there, TS.  Smiley
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #406 - July 23, 2015, 12:44 AM

    Gabriel Said Reynolds is saying on Twitter that the Quran might be "older than it should be."

    The parchment might be made of sheep-skin, but I'm smelling the produce of a rather different sort of animal...

    - It's not just van Bladel on sura 18. It's also Shoemaker on sura 19; that it might be Marwani.
    https://www.academia.edu/1057321/Christmas_in_the_Qur%C3%A4n_the_Qur%C3%A4nic_account_of_Jesuss_nativity_and_Palestinian_local_tradition

    - The sura 19/20 divisor here is ornamented, which is characteristic of Marwani Qur'ans like those which Deroche discusses in "Qur'ans of the Umayyads".

    - What's with the canonical sort-order? Early Qur'ans don't follow 18>19>20. Again: Marwani. Ubay has 19>26 and might even have omitted 18. Ibn Mas'ud also splits them up and might have omitted 20. Source: Arthur Jeffery, "Materials for the History of the Text of the Qur'an"; also Sadeghi's work on the Sanaa MSS.

    - This just in! carbon-dating is affected by climate-change. I suppose deniers / skeptics might laugh at this specific claim. But the subtext is, carbon-dating isn't trustworthy. It hasn't been trustworthy my whole life, beyond the general century.
    http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/07/22/3683293/now-carbon-dating-could-suffer-from-fossil-fuel-emissions/

    As for Waley, yes, the man is biased beyond credibility. It's not his job as Curator to gladden Muslim hearts; his job is to curate texts in a secular museum. I've literally seen less bombast from the lads at Islamic Awareness.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #407 - July 23, 2015, 01:11 AM

    @ZImriel: If carbon dating is unreliable, wouldn't Alba Fedeli have mentioned something?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #408 - July 23, 2015, 01:26 AM

    @curiousarabgirl: Alba Fedeli is an expert in palaeography, from what I've read in "The Hidden Origins of Islam" (Prometheus tr., 2010), 8 tr. as "Early Evidences of Variant Readings", 311f. That particular article didn't mention radiocarbon - one way or another. It was observing a text, with no assumptions on date beyond sometime in the 600s-700s.

    If Fedeli hasn't mentioned the controversies around radiocarbon, it's probably because she feels it's not her field. It's not mine either, I admit... but, it looks to me like the field itself needs a lot of work before it can be usable, to the detail required. Fedeli, to her great credit, seems to understand that.

    UPDATE: okay, there's this in the release -
    Quote
    Dr Alba Fedeli, who studied the leaves as part of her PhD research, said: ‘The two leaves, which were radiocarbon dated to the early part of the seventh century, come from the same codex as a manuscript kept in the Bibliothèque Nationale de France in Paris.’

    I'd like to know myself now, Fedeli's source for the carbon-dating.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #409 - July 23, 2015, 01:49 AM

    @ZImriel: If carbon dating is unreliable, wouldn't Alba Fedeli have mentioned something?


    Fedeli presented a paper on this subject last month.  Here's part of it:



    She is a very good and careful scholar, and it's unfortunate that her opinions have not been solicited on the subject, as she just obtained her doctorate a couple weeks ago based on her analysis of this manuscript.  Honestly I think it's kind of ridiculous they interviewed the people quoted in the article, who are just hounding for publicity and know little about the subject, rather than the specific scholar who actually did the research!  Not only because her opinion is far more informed, but because she deserves all the credit for this discovery.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #410 - July 23, 2015, 02:18 AM

    Fedeli: "A Perg 2: a non palimpsest and the corrections in Qur'anic Manuscripts", Manuscripta Orientalia 11.1 (2005), 20-7
    http://www.islamicmanuscripts.info/reference/articles/MO-11-2005/Fedeli-2005-MO-11-1-Corrections.pdf

    This is a look at a manuscript of suras 26 and 28 bound together (fn. 3). Note: where's Surat Solomon / al-Naml?

    I am amazed that Dr Fedeli was not "Dr" Fedeli a full decade ago.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #411 - July 23, 2015, 05:04 AM

    The script in the picture shown on the article is remarkably legible. It only takes a few moments to notice that it is Surah Taha. It also appears to have the dots on some words - dots that were a later addition to Arabic script. Is it possible that the parchment itself is as old as discovered, but the writing is not?


    I think this is a distinct possibility, and I have the exact thoughts you do on this having looked at it. It kills me how the media is going to run with this sensationalist nonsense about this being a Quran of Muhammad and then omit the entire scholarly debate in which context this extreme claim is being made. 

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #412 - July 23, 2015, 10:41 AM

    Hopefully more sensible and better researched information will eventually emerge.

    I'm just pleased there is more spotlight being shed on the Qur'an.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #413 - July 23, 2015, 10:54 AM

    It's brilliant isn't it Hassan!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #414 - July 23, 2015, 11:22 AM

    The Islamic World at IMC in Leeds 2015
    Quote
    Historians and Arabists currently exploring Early islamic History are more and more convinced that the significant breaks with the past were not so much the mission of Muhammad (d. 632) and the 7th-century foundation of the Muslim Empire as the transformation of that empire after 750. With this recognition new approaches have been fostered with which to think about the nature of the earliest Muslim empire – often in a comparative world historical perspective – as well as to think about the development of the religion of Islam itself.

    This year six sessions have been organized to create a forum for mutual exchange and debates about the different shifts inside law, land, religion, writing etc, in the Islamic heartlands.

    The sessions are sponsored by CASAW – The Centre for the Advanced Study of the Arab World which sponsors the network: The Early Islamic World. The network investigates current research into the origins of both Arab ethnic identity and the religion of Islam, c.500-c. 750 CE....

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #415 - July 23, 2015, 12:15 PM

    It's brilliant isn't it Hassan!


    Absolutely - a closer critical look at the Qur'an can only be a good thing in the long run.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #416 - July 23, 2015, 04:52 PM

    I had the same thoughts as Zim as to the likelihood that a Qur'an in this elegant and polished form would be so early.  It seems unlikely.

    However I do think it's beneficial to challenge a certain strand of thought amongst revisionist scholars, which is to assume that the Qur'an must have been assembled and composed very slow/late.  Why?  Usually it is because of a particular picture of Islamic origins.  As I am generally very skeptical about our knowledge of Islamic origins ... it is easier to say what's wrong than what's right ... I think we cannot get very attached to any particular picture about how Islam emerged.  Carbon dating is a *potentially* valuable tool here, and I would not reject out-of-hand the idea that the Qur'an was developed much earlier than even Islamic tradition claims.  After all, the 'pre-history' of the Qur'an need not fit the Islamic story at all either.  My personal theory, vaguely similar to Luling/Luxenberg, is that much of the archaic Qur'an had nothing to do with Muhammad, but (being the only existing body of written Arabic 'scripture' similar to a 'Book') was later creatively adapted to *articulate the legitimacy of Muhammad*, this being the primary shift in Qur'anic composition.  And this would have happened urgently, and relatively quickly.  So why shouldn't we grant a pre-Islamic history to the Qur'an, and why shouldn't we consider that Qur'anic texts may have existed in a developed form at an early date?

    That all said, to my mind the fatal problem with the carbon dating of this manuscript is that (as Zim says above) Q 18 in its present form clearly was composed after the 630s, due to its incorporation of the Syriac Legend of Alexander, so I think the carbon dating needs to be improved --- not rejected, improved. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #417 - July 23, 2015, 05:23 PM

    Tweets from Reynolds making somewhat similar point:

    https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #418 - July 23, 2015, 05:32 PM

    I had the same thoughts as Zim as to the likelihood that a Qur'an in this elegant and polished form would be so early.  It seems unlikely.

    .......... My personal theory, vaguely similar to Luling/Luxenberg, is that much of the archaic Qur'an had nothing to do with Muhammad, but (being the only existing body of written Arabic 'scripture' similar to a 'Book') was later creatively adapted to *articulate the legitimacy of Muhammad*, this being the primary shift in Qur'anic composition. ......

    That all said, to my mind the fatal problem with the carbon dating of this manuscript is that (as Zim says above) Q 18 in its present form clearly was composed after the 630s, due to its incorporation of the Syriac Legend of Alexander, so I think the carbon dating needs to be improved --- not rejected, improved.  

    I would NOT trust carbon dating  technique of any material that is less than ~10,000 years .. the error bars become larger and larger

    Quote

    Plenty of research done on that subject in Science fields. And it is well known that  there are plenty of problems. With respect to  this manuscript, to figure out  when it is  published vs when this alleged prophet of Islam died is a serious problem.  

    But what will be useful is,  comparing that manuscript with the Quran what we have now.. and how different are these two.  Frankly  speaking I don't care  what is published and when,   as long as Muslim ROBOTS that preach Islam and  that make  rules to the society agree that  QURAN IS NOT  WORD OF ALLAH/GOD/whatever

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #419 - July 23, 2015, 05:33 PM

    Great thread guys

    Hi
  • Previous page 1 ... 12 13 1415 16 ... 370 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »