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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #720 - April 11, 2016, 07:19 PM
    I came across another interesting article of R. Kerr about the possible meaning of the "Ansar" and the possible connection to the Nasareans. I think this thesis is close to E. Gallez´s?

    Also an explanation is given for the new calendar, the year of Arabs, instead of the the Hijra.

    http://www.academia.edu/2629114/Islam_Arabs_and_the_Hijra
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #721 - April 14, 2016, 06:04 PM
    ^Here's Ian David Morris being critical of Kerr and that article: https://mobile.twitter.com/Razmatronix/status/578993719988383744

    I really don't know whether his dismissal of Kerr is justified or not.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #722 - April 14, 2016, 07:18 PM
    mmmm, main argument seems to be, "too far removed from tradition..." Clearly out of  comfort zone...

    But Zeca, what do you think of Kerr´s arguments? Do you know Gallez´theory (Le Messie et son prophete)?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #723 - April 14, 2016, 07:55 PM
    I don't know Gallez - any links would be welcome.

    Kerr seems to be suggesting that some form of Jewish Christianity survived to be an influence on the development on early Islam. I think this goes against a developing consensus that the form or forms of Christianity in the background of Islam were later more orthodox ones. As for his other arguments I really don't know and to be honest I'm not an expert at all. I'd be interested to see all this argued out and I think it's a shame Morris doesn't really do this.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #724 - April 14, 2016, 08:20 PM
    Quote from: zeca on April 14, 2016, 07:55 PM
    the form or forms of Christianity in the background of Islam were later more orthodox ones.


    Even though the qur'an uses Jesus stories from the Infancy Gospel of Thomas?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #725 - April 14, 2016, 08:36 PM
    There's no question that there's a big influence from non-canonical sources. I'm not actually sure how far Near Eastern Christians at the time would have seen these kinds of stories and texts as problematic (or maybe heretical).
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #726 - April 14, 2016, 08:39 PM
    Zeca, do you read French?
    Kodanshi, you obviously do...

    https://legrandsecretdelislam.com/

    This is a vulgarisation of Eduard Gallez 1600 (!) doctoral thesis. I cant seem to find a good English summary although there are shorter English articles around. I can look for them if French is a problem.

    Gallez has a complete theory for the origin of Islam that I find (right or wrong) very interesting. The difficult part to accept is that Islam was  "invented".... But then on the other hand, arent all religions indeed invented except if we accept all religions to be true (and they cant all be true, accepting one to be true is already a serious leap...).

    Gallez accepts the Quran much more literary in the sense when it says n-s-r (nazareans), the Quran also means nazareans and not Christians who were never called that way (early 7 C). That is also in line with what Kerr says (I think they know each other and influence each other).

    Also he claims the origin of the Quran are to be found in Syria (Latakia area) where the place names correspond with the Mecca area.

    Hope to discuss this further with your input,,,
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #727 - April 14, 2016, 08:47 PM
    I can read a bit of French with difficulty. Academic articles are a stretch.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #728 - April 14, 2016, 09:16 PM
    This site seems to be linked to Gallez and is partly in English:

    http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #729 - April 14, 2016, 09:44 PM
    Really dont understand why these authors dont get their work translated into English...

    http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/subpages/Ahl-al-Kitab_people-of-the-book.htm

    http://www.lemessieetsonprophete.com/annexes/presentation-en.pdf

    http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/subpages/Genealogy-Islam.PNG

    Don´t know if these articles are enough to make sense out of the theory...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #730 - April 14, 2016, 09:46 PM
    Quote from: zeca on April 14, 2016, 09:16 PM
    This site seems to be linked to Gallez and is partly in English:

    http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com


    Yes, but it doesnt give the complete logic behind it as in the French text I posted...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #731 - April 15, 2016, 05:42 PM
    Fred Donner - How ecumenical was early Islam?
    https://vimeo.com/47187912
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #732 - April 16, 2016, 02:53 PM
    Quote from: zeca on April 15, 2016, 05:42 PM
    Fred Donner - How ecumenical was early Islam?
    https://vimeo.com/47187912


    hi zeca., I wonder whether you came across any links that gives information on names of people in pre-Islamic era  such as
    Quote
    Abdul Uzza
    Abdul Manaf
    Abdul Muttalib

    in and around Arabian peninsula that you see in this picture



    thanks
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #733 - April 16, 2016, 03:29 PM
    Sorry - I can't help with the names. Do they have any particular significance?

    That map is quite handy but I think it might be a bit misleading in suggesting the existence of clear boundaries between Arabia and the Roman and Sasanian empires, when in fact tribal groups could come under the sphere of influence of one or another empire and the eastern coast of Arabia was I think in part Persian and Persian speaking. Also it doesn't show Himyar as a separate or subject state or empire. There might be an implication here of an anachronistic 'Arab' identity for a pre-Islamic Arabia that actually consisted of many different languages and cultures. Or maybe I'm reading too much into it.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #734 - April 16, 2016, 04:38 PM
    Which brings this article to mind:

    Michael MacDonald - Arabs, Arabias and Arabic before Late Antiquity

    http://www.academia.edu/4592796/Arabs_Arabias_and_Arabic_before_Late_Antiquity

    Also:

    Michael MacDonald - Reflections on the linguistic map of pre-Islamic Arabia

    http://www.academia.edu/4421909/Reflections_on_the_Linguistic_map_of_pre-Islamic_Arabia

    Other articles by Michael MacDonald

    http://oxford.academia.edu/MichaelMacdonald
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #735 - April 16, 2016, 06:10 PM
    A new article from Sean Anthony:

    Muḥammad, Menaḥem, and the Paraclete: New Light on Ibn Isḥāq’s (d. 130/767) Arabic Version of John 15:23-16:1,

    https://www.academia.edu/12230900/_Muḥammad_Menaḥem_and_the_Paraclete_New_Light_on_Ibn_Isḥāq_s_d._130_767_Arabic_Version_of_John_15_23-16_1_Bulletin_of_the_School_of_Oriental_and_African_Studies_forthcoming_
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #736 - April 16, 2016, 08:00 PM
    zeca: also, those maps of the Sasanian Empire which stretch out to Kabul might apply for the first kings of that empire, and I say MIGHT - but I don't know how well they work for Khusru I and beyond. I'd read that the White Huns had booted the empire right out of Central Asia. Plus any foreigner who's ever claimed to rule Afghanistan for longer than a decade was lying.

    One reason Khusru I & II focused westward is exactly because they were blocked from the east.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #737 - April 16, 2016, 10:42 PM
    Workshop on holistic approaches to the study of early Islam and the late antique world
    (this weekend - scroll down for abstracts of the talks)

    http://indiana.edu/~relstud/news/islam_workshop
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #738 - April 16, 2016, 11:20 PM
    The rock star at that Indiana workshop would be Pourshariati. I'm sorry I missed it.

    I'd love to see a debate between her and Touraj Daryaee on the Sasanians' fall.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #739 - April 17, 2016, 12:09 AM
    Quote from: zeca on April 16, 2016, 06:10 PM
    A new article from Sean Anthony: Muḥammad, Menaḥem, and the Paraclete: New Light on Ibn Isḥāq’s (d. 130/767) Arabic Version of John 15:23-16:1,


    Anthony argues first that Ibn Isḥāq’s version was translated from Christian Palestinian Aramaic. This part updates Anton Baumstark, "Eine altarabische Evangelienübersetzung aus dem ChristlichPalastinenischen" (1932), now translated in Ibn Warraq's Christmas in the Koran as "An Old Arabic Gospel Translation from the Christian-Palestinian", pp. 297f. Anthony acknowledges this debt in two footnotes. Anthony also points to Evangeliarium Hierosolymitanum as an exemplar of relevant CPA, and to Climaci Rescriptus as also CPA but not with relevant text here - in both cases, as Baumstark had done before him.

    Anthony brings an unedited fragment of Abu Ja'far Ibn Abi Shayba's Tarikh to triangulate with Ibn Hishām; which means, he can do what Baumstark couldn't, which is to constrain that translation before Ibn Isḥāq’s time.

    Anthony is correct that CPA-translations are (still) rare in what's been uncovered from Islamic literature. Ibn Isḥāq himself doesn't use CPA-translation elsewhere; Joseph Witztum, "Ibn Isḥāq and the Pentateuch in Arabic", Jerusalem studies in Arabic and Islam 40 (2013), 1-72 had argued that Ibn Isḥāq's Torah quotes derive from an Arabic translation of the Peshitta Old Testament. Which was in classical Syriac with help from Jewish Aramaic, IIRC.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #740 - April 17, 2016, 09:16 AM
    Quote from: zeca on April 15, 2016, 05:42 PM
    Fred Donner - How ecumenical was early Islam?
    https://vimeo.com/47187912


    Thank you Zeca for this very interesting link to Donner´s talk!

    It seems to give a very good overview of the main points of confusion that exist about the origin of Islam.
    Referring to our previous reference to Kerr´s and Gallez´ work, is that Donner doesnt challenge the meaning of certain words (eg nsr or hjr). I dont know if that is because it´s not an issue to him or because that is outside the scope of his talk.
    What struck me is the mention of Mecca as being in Sebeos´ transmission (+ min 46:00). Did you know about that? If that is correct, that would "undermine" somewhat Gallez´ and Kerr´s viewpoints.
    But concerning the other points mentioned by Donner, Gallez theory seems to fit in...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #741 - April 18, 2016, 03:44 PM
    Gabriel Said Reynolds - The Muslim Jesus: Dead or Alive?

    https://www.academia.edu/24493806/_The_Muslim_Jesus_Dead_or_Alive_Bulletin_of_the_School_of_Oriental_and_African_Studies_72_2009_237-58
    Quote
    According to most classical Muslim commentators the Quran teaches that Jesus did not die. On the day of the crucifixion another person – whether his disciple or his betrayer – was miraculously transformed and assumed the appearance of Jesus. He was taken away, crucified, and killed, while Jesus was assumed body and soul into heaven. Most critical scholars accept that this is indeed the Quran’s teaching, even if the Quran states explicitly only that the Jews did not kill Jesus. In the present paper I contend that the Quran rather accepts that Jesus died, and indeed alludes to his role as a witness against his murderers in the apocalypse. The paper begins with an analysis of the Quran’s references to the death of Jesus, continues with a description of classical Muslim exegesis of those references, and concludes with a presentation of the Quran’s conversation with Jewish and Christian tradition on the matter of Jesus’ death.

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #742 - April 18, 2016, 05:04 PM
    Quote from: mundi on April 17, 2016, 09:16 AM
    Thank you Zeca for this very interesting link to Donner´s talk!

    It seems to give a very good overview of the main points of confusion that exist about the origin of Islam.

    I liked it - though it may also be worth reading Patricia Crone's critical review of Donner's 'Muhammad and the Believers: at the Origins of Islam'

    Patricia Crone - Among the Believers

    http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/42023/among-the-believers

    Also see this article for her take on the original meaning of hijra:

    Patricia Crone - The First-Century Concept of Higra

    https://www.hs.ias.edu/files/Crone_Articles/Crone_First_Century_Concept_of_Higra.pdf

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #743 - April 18, 2016, 06:18 PM
    Another review of Donner's 'Muhammad and the Believers', this time by Jack Tannous

    https://expositions.journals.villanova.edu/article/view/685/604
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #744 - April 18, 2016, 09:14 PM
    Alexander Treiger - Origins of Kalam

    https://www.academia.edu/2344281/Origins_of_Kalam
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #745 - April 18, 2016, 11:24 PM
    Suleiman Mourad - Christian Monks in Islamic Literature

    http://www.academia.edu/6728523/Christian_Monks_in_Islamic_Literature
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #746 - April 19, 2016, 08:19 AM
    Once upon a time, Homer was studied for centuries and arguments had about rewriting him or not for the (then) current generation (s).

    Isn't first Paul and then "Mohammed"( if he existed), only equivalents to the processes that happened with Homer, attempts to rewrite Moses by recurring generations?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #747 - April 19, 2016, 01:48 PM
    Quote from: zeca on April 18, 2016, 05:04 PM
    I liked it - though it may also be worth reading Patricia Crone's critical review of Donner's 'Muhammad and the Believers: at the Origins of Islam'

    Patricia Crone - Among the Believers

    http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/42023/among-the-believers

    Also see this article for her take on the original meaning of hijra:

    Patricia Crone - The First-Century Concept of Higra

    https://www.hs.ias.edu/files/Crone_Articles/Crone_First_Century_Concept_of_Higra.pdf




    Donner seems to me  to just give a minimum position of uncertainties in the origin of islam. For sure a lot more is wrong or not known and I guess that´s where more radical revisionists like Gallez and Kerr kick in?

    On the Higra article of Crone, I really dont understand her introduction paragraph: "In sources for the first century of islamic history.... it (higra) refers to emigration from Mecca to Medina..."
    We know the first mention of Mecca is around 754 in the Crónica mozárabe (Spanish-Latin). Of course Crone says sources for the first century, not of... but I think not mentioning the lateness of the historical mention of Mecca in an article about Higra is strange. I am probably missing something...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #748 - April 19, 2016, 04:38 PM
    Honestly Crone has always struck me as quite weak in terms of Qur'antic Studies ... She is brilliant at early Islamic history, but when it comes to the Qur'an, her views have careened from the initial silliness of Hagarism to (in her later years) a strangely uncritical approach to how the Qur'an was composed.  A major part of the problem is her excessive reliance on historical approaches ... Everything is focused around first postulating historical scenarios, rather than a text-first approach.  This is fine if you are doing history, but in Qur'anic Studies it leads to severe interpretive problems.  Donner suffers from this problem as well, but he has retained more openness in thinking about how the Qur'an was compiled.

    I will say that the entire concept of the Hejirah has long struck me as one of the silliest aspects of Qur'anic Studies.  It never fails to amaze me that it is taken seriously by prominent scholars.  Partly I think this is because it reflects a very real transition observable in the corpus, a stark disruptive transformation, and scholars lack many good ways to explain how that transition occurred.  So they default to an extremely implausible biographical construction.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #749 - April 19, 2016, 07:47 PM
    Quote from: Zaotar on April 19, 2016, 04:38 PM
    Honestly Crone has always struck me as quite weak in terms of Qur'antic Studies ... She is brilliant at early Islamic history, but when it comes to the Qur'an, her views have careened from the initial silliness of Hagarism to (in her later years) a strangely uncritical approach to how the Qur'an was composed.  A major part of the problem is her excessive reliance on historical approaches ... Everything is focused around first postulating historical scenarios, rather than a text-first approach.  This is fine if you are doing history, but in Qur'anic Studies it leads to severe interpretive problems.  Donner suffers from this problem as well, but he has retained more openness in thinking about how the Qur'an was compiled.

    I will say that the entire concept of the Hejirah has long struck me as one of the silliest aspects of Qur'anic Studies.  It never fails to amaze me that it is taken seriously by prominent scholars.  Partly I think this is because it reflects a very real transition observable in the corpus, a stark disruptive transformation, and scholars lack many good ways to explain how that transition occurred.  So they default to an extremely implausible biographical construction.


    That is very very harsh criticism Zaotar., I didn't expect that from you.  We must   note   here that  dr.  Patricia crone is no more  to say something on what you wrote..

    Quote
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16018.0

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27518.0

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=25924.msg736800#msg736800

    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=15894&start=80#p210079

    http://free-islam.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=5794#5794

     We have plenty of posts on her & on  her works in this forum itself  and we have to realize that book.. (here is the pdf file of it)  Hagarism The making of the islamic world by  Crone  and Cook  was published way back in 1977.., It was revolutionary and fantastic book at that time

    and  please read  Hagarism: The Story of a Book Written by Infidels for Infidels Dr. Liaquat Ali Khan   and that is published  10 years ago from US of A..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
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