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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #780 - May 01, 2016, 02:53 PM

    Thank you Hatoush,
    for the interview with Jallad. Very interesting! Guess the Kerr article we discussed here a few weeks ago represents similar views:
    Quote

    .
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #781 - May 01, 2016, 04:08 PM

    Guest Ahmad al-Jallad has spent the past several summers digging in Jordan and Saudi Arabia, uncovering new inscriptions thousands of years old, and shares his research that’s shedding new light on the writings of a complex civilization that lived in the Arabian peninsula for centuries before Islam arose.

    http://15minutehistory.org/2016/04/27/episode-82-what-writing-can-tell-us-about-the-arabs-before-islam/

    Thanks. That's very useful and easy to follow.

    Here's a podcast on the Birmingham Qur'an from the same series:

    http://15minutehistory.org/2015/11/04/episode-75-the-birmingham-quran/

    Also a podcast on Islamic origins with Fred Donner:

    http://15minutehistory.org/2014/04/23/episode-51-islams-enigmatic-origins/
    Quote
    Finally, your current project involves an Arabic papyrus that you discovered in the archives of the Oriental Institute. Can you tell us what you found and how it’s significant for your work?

    Yes, it was very surprising and exciting for me to find it. I had actually spent a year on leave several years earlier looking at papyrus collections in Europe trying to find very early documents which would actually predate the crystallization of Islam out of the Believers’ movement. So, that would be documents from the 7th century that didn’t reflect a later understanding. I did find a few fragments, but not much that was very helpful.

    Then, when I came back to Chicago and I was preparing for a class on paleography, I was looking over some of the papyri, and I came across this one which somehow has escaped everyone’s notice. It seems to be a very early letter. The script of it is what first struck me because the script is of a very early variety; some of the letter forms aren’t used after about 700, so this is what suggested to me that it was a very early document.

    And then, when I began to read it, I found in it a whole bunch of names who are individuals in the orbit of the Prophet and his close companions. It seems to be dealing with the disposition of a relatively modest amount of money–not an insignificant amount, but it’s not a huge fortune. It’s describing basic day to day affairs in a family, perhaps. The letter is about how this small amount of money is to be divided: one dinar to this person, two dinars to that person, and so on.

    As I say, it’s very striking because, first of all, some of the people mentioned in it are people from the time of the Prophet. One is one of the Prophet’s daughters, Umm Kultoum, who dies in 630. So if this is actually what it appears to be, it’s one of the oldest Arabic letters we’ve ever found, and it dates from the time of the Prophet himself.

    On the other hand, the content is also striking because it does not conform to what a later forger might want to include in it. It does not mention the Prophet, it doesn’t mention Islam, it doesn’t really grind any religious axe, it doesn’t establish any claims to religious authority, political authority, social status, or wealth–so, why would anyone later on forge this thing? It’s very interesting.

    It does include phrases that you find in other Arabic letters at the beginning and at the end, phrases that say things like, “I praise you God, other than whom there is no God,” a very nice monotheistic invocation, and at the end things like “peace be upon you and the blessings of God” – salaam aleikum wa rahmat Allah [...]  – this is something you find in many letters right up until today.

    So, it appears that the writer lived in a community that was clearly monotheistic or oriented toward the worship of a single god, but there’s nothing in the letter that could be called distinctively Muslim. Or, for that matter, distinctively Jewish or Christian. There’s just reference to God, so mindfulness of God is something that’s there. So, it’s extremely interesting, because if it is, in fact, of the date that the content seems to suggest, that is from the 1st part of the 7th century, it’s extremely early and it gives us a window into this community that we don’t know much about on the basis of documentation.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #782 - May 01, 2016, 04:57 PM

    On Fred Donner´s papyrus find:

    Very interesting, has he published the exact content of the find and an image of the papyrus? How does he know it´s the daughter of the prophet that is referred to since the prophet himself is not mentioned? The podcast is from 2014, strange the papyrus find has not been picked up by other scholars.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #783 - May 01, 2016, 06:05 PM

    There's a report on it here: https://ponderingislam.com/2015/04/08/a-new-arabic-papyrus-dating-within-12-years-of-the-prophet-muhammad/

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #784 - May 01, 2016, 06:52 PM

    Hi Zeca,
    The source of the article you mentioned is a lecture given by Donner (says the Bibliography).

    In this article
    Quote

    , Donner says the payrus might take years to analyse. Don´t understand why it would take so long to give the verbatim content since apparently (according to the podcast), Donner knows what´s in it and that the prophets companions and daughter are mentioned.

    I dont know, I seem to be hard to convince...


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #785 - May 02, 2016, 08:49 AM

    Ahmad Al-Jallad - The earliest stages of Arabic and its linguistic classification

    https://www.academia.edu/18470301/Al-Jallad._The_earliest_stages_of_Arabic_and_its_linguistic_classification_Routledge_Handbook_of_Arabic_Linguistics_forthcoming_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #786 - May 02, 2016, 09:18 AM

    Once upon a time, Homer was studied for centuries and arguments had about rewriting him or not for the (then) current generation (s).

    Isn't first Paul and then "Mohammed"( if he existed), only equivalents to the processes that happened with Homer, attempts to rewrite Moses by recurring generations?


    No. There are near-contemporary sources for Paul found in the Book of Acts 80-90 AD and The Acts of Paul and Thecla 2nd century. There is also 4th century Jerome which mentions traditions about Paul which we no longer have a source for before Jerome. Also you need to keep in mind Paul by being a Christian and writing about it places him with a set time frame. He could not have been a Christian prior to 30-36 AD as this is the date in which Jesus began his ministry. As per the above his letter would have been made after 80-90 AD as the Book of Acts makes direct references to Paul's letters. The letters which are believed to be written by Paul show the methods of the same writer that we call historical Paul. This differences in writing methods is what set's the forgeries apart from authentic letters. Also this is to set historical Paul apart from theological Paul.

    The sources about Homers have contradictory dates from 800 BCE to 400 BCE. There are anachronism such as iron tools but the events of Troy historically are in the Bronze Age not Iron Age. The social system and the pantheon is that of late Greece not Mycenaean. Tribal references are of late Greece as the Dorion invasion took place, after the events at Troy, from which these tribe originate from, and later developed. Also the earliest references to Homer place themselves centuries removed from his time.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #787 - May 02, 2016, 03:47 PM

    Fred Donner - The Study of Islam’s Origins since W. Montgomery Watt’s Publications

    http://www.ed.ac.uk/files/atoms/files/professor_fred_donner.pdf

    Edit: video of this lecture here
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #788 - May 02, 2016, 04:39 PM

    Hi Zeca,
    The source of the article you mentioned is a lecture given by Donner (says the Bibliography).

    In this article , Donner says the payrus might take years to analyse. Don´t understand why it would take so long to give the verbatim content since apparently (according to the podcast), Donner knows what´s in it and that the prophets companions and daughter are mentioned.

    I dont know, I seem to be hard to convince...



    One interesting thing about that article is that the carbon dating of that letter is so incredibly late.  The laboratory carbon dating attributes that papyrus to the 9th century, which seems impossibly late on paleographic grounds ... I agree with Donner that it must be incredibly early given the super-primitive script, and could have been written during Muhammad's lifetime.  Yet another example of carbon dating not being quite ready for prime time when it comes to dating Islamic manuscripts.  Why it is having problems remains very unclear.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #789 - May 02, 2016, 06:15 PM

    One interesting thing about that article is that the carbon dating of that letter is so incredibly late.  The laboratory carbon dating attributes that papyrus to the 9th century, which seems impossibly late on paleographic grounds .........

    .............  Yet another example of carbon dating not being quite ready for prime time when it comes to dating Islamic manuscripts.  Why it is having problems remains very unclear.  

    the error in carbon dating can be as low as+-   80 years but could be as high as 200 years..

    But don't trust this guy .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVuVYnHRuig

    a  4th grade teacher and high school dropout..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbvMB57evy4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5369-OobM4

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #790 - May 02, 2016, 08:09 PM

    Is Mohammed the Holy Spirit ?

    http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2352

    Quote


    Mark, Marcion, Muhammad and the Paraclete
    Unread postby Secret Alias » Mon May 02, 2016 4:29 pm

    In our four gospel set the figure of the 'Paraclete' or Comforter has been relegated to the 'last' gospel - that of John. Nevertheless the Marcionites according to the testimony of Origen (and confirmed by the Acts of Archelaus) acknowledged Paul as this awaited figure. It is not the first time that we see the Marcionites attached to so-called 'Johannine' material. The pattern repeats itself over and over again in De Recta in Deum Fide where the Marcionite cites with approval things written only by John.

    The Paraclete interest is one of the reasons for my understanding the Marcionites had in their possession a 'super gospel' (a text that contained material from ALL the canonical gospels) rather than a corrupt version of Luke. Indeed while the Catholics from the beginning identify the Paraclete as a 'spirit' or wind that comes from above, the traditions outside of the Catholic Church see this awaited figure who will remind the world of what Jesus said and did as a human being - viz. Montanists, Marcionites, Manichaeans and of course the first followers of Muhammad.

    That 'Muhammad' was not his real name but a title has long been noted. The same thing occurs with respect to Mani. Muhammad we are told means 'paraclete.' Yet there is a difficulty because the Arabic أحمد does not mean 'comfort.' Regarding Ibn Ishaq's biography of Muhammad, the Sirat Asul Allah, Islamic scholar Alfred Guillaume wrote:





    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #791 - May 03, 2016, 04:57 PM

    Guillaume Dye - The Cosmo-logic of Qur'anic Demonology
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ6IszLlxxk
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #792 - May 03, 2016, 05:08 PM

    Interview with Carlos Segovia on the Qur'anic Noah

    https://www.academia.edu/19645163/Abdul-Rahman_Abul-Majd_and_Carlos_A._Segovia_Talk_on_Quranic_Intertextuality_and_the_Future_of_Quranic_Studies_2015_Online_Interview
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #793 - May 03, 2016, 05:20 PM

    Quote
    But there is something I believe in, namely that historical- and cultural criticism is not a colonialist tool to be imposed on Muslims. What would be colonialist - very paternalist, and hence very colonialist - would be to pretend that Muslims cannot think critically because they are Muslims. Just like it would be stupid to think Muslims or any other human collective will ever remain the same through history. The future is open, the present is open. To assume it, Muslims need not look to the West, although there is nothing inherently bad in looking to the West; in fact in our world there is no more East and West, or fortunately there is everyday less and less of that divide that stands firmly or unquestioned. Muslims just need to re-affirm two concepts of their own:
    ijtihad (roughly, independent, rational thinking) and ta'wil (which can in turn be translated as symbolic, i.e. non-literal hermeneutics). That is all they need to do, and in fact many Muslims are already willing to do it and doing it. The intertextual exploration of the QurÕan is a path that can be easily traversed with the help of these two concepts, and a fascinating one to get lost in for that matter.


    Very, very true.

    Thanks, zeca. You've been posting some very interesting articles lately. I'm enjoying them.  Smiley
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #794 - May 03, 2016, 05:49 PM

    Thanks. I just came across this New Statesman article from 15 years ago on the revisionist scholarship. It's not the greatest article to be honest but it's interesting to see how things have changed, in part because so much of the scholarship is now freely available online.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/religion/2001/12/new-statesman-special-report-great-koran-con-trick
    Quote
    ....
    Such is the intensity of feeling that many who work in highly charged areas of scholarship - history and archaeology, for example - choose to keep a low profile, circulating their work only in trusted academic circles. Thus the censorship that plagues the Middle East seeps into every corner of intellectual life.

    Nowhere is this more true than in the study of the origins of Islam, where some of the conclusions being drawn are potentially even more explosive than the argument that Israelis and Palestinians have common ancestors. Tucked away in the journals and occasional papers of the world of Islamic studies is work by a group of academics who have spent the past three decades plotting a quiet revolution in the study of the origins of the religion, the Koran and the life of the Prophet Mohammad. The conclusions of the so-called "new historians" of Islam are devastating
    ....
    Ziauddin Sardar is one of the few Muslim intellectuals genuinely to have engaged with the new historians. He has called their work "Eurocentrism of the most extreme, purblind kind, which assumes that not a single word written by Muslims can be accepted as evidence". Writing in the aftermath of the Rushdie affair, Sardar placed the western revisionists firmly in the post-colonial orientalist camp, from where colonial "experts" have consistently told Muslims that they know best about the origins of their primitive, barbarian religion. "The triumphant conclusion of Crone and Cook," he says, "was that Islam is an amalgam of Jewish texts, theology and ritual tradition."

    Sardar points out that all of the academics responsible for the new Islamic history emerged from the School of Oriental and African Studies, a colonial institution that is noted for training generations of Foreign Office officials and spies.
    ....
    Why has the work of these academics received so little attention? In part, this must be due to the attitude of liberal intellectuals in the west and their counterparts in the Muslim world, who have failed to engage with their work, or tiptoed around it for fear of offending Muslim sensibilities. In so doing, they have left the field open to the radical right in the United States, where it has been used to justify a crusading, Christian fundamentalist approach to Islam.
    ....
    The new historians themselves must take some responsibility for failing to bring their arguments into the mainstream. When I telephoned one of the main protagonists in the debate, a London University academic, to ask him about the way the work of the new historians had been hijacked by the radical right and Christian fundamentalists, he warned me against publication. Nor did he wish to be identified: "I would have thought the best thing was to allow this to remain in its decent obscurity," he wrote in an e-mail.

    This fear of misrepresentation (or worse) is understandable. Salman Rushdie was condemned to death for "insulting" the Prophet by depicting him as just a little too fallible and human in The Satanic Verses - and that was fiction, not historical research. Penguin, the original publisher of the Satanic Verses, has postponed the publication of a controversial new history of Islam by Professor Gerald Hawting. And the founder of the SOAS revisionist school of thought found himself the target of Islamist demonstrations at the University of London when his views first received publicity in the Muslim world; he has chosen to live in obscurity in France since he retired from the university in 1992.

    For devout Muslims, the tradition as passed down from the original companions of Mohammad and reinforced by nearly 1,400 years of Islamic scholarship is unlikely to be shaken by a small group of infidel academics based at British and American universities. So why is it that, in the acres of newsprint and during the hours of television time spent discussing Muslim issues since 11 September, there has been no debate on the Koran and the origins of Islam? According to Francis Robinson, who edited the Cambridge Illustrated History of the Islamic World, it is important "not to let sensitivities for Muslim feelings override all other considerations". He also suggests that the new history remains in relative obscurity because "these historians have yet to find a single figure who can bring all these revolutionary ideas together in an accessible way. But believe me, that will happen. And it will be interesting to watch the reaction."

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #795 - May 05, 2016, 05:31 PM

    Really fantastic article by Carlos Segovia regarding Abraha's Christology and its relationship to the Qur'an.  Segovia had previously published an early draft of the article on academia, but this version (the final version as published in Oriens Christianus) is much bigger and better. 

    https://www.academia.edu/14169772/Abrahas_Christological_Formula_R%E1%B8%A5mnn_w-Ms%E1%B8%A5-hw_and_Its_Relevance_for_the_Study_of_Islams_Origins_2015_Scholarly_Article


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #796 - May 05, 2016, 05:40 PM

    Sardar is no intellectual and a hack.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #797 - May 05, 2016, 06:06 PM

    Sardar is no intellectual and a hack.

     Cheesy Cheesy

    All idiots make loud noise to scare others and proclaims themselves as intellectuals and philosophers of 20th century Islam..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #798 - May 05, 2016, 10:08 PM

    Really fantastic article by Carlos Segovia regarding Abraha's Christology and its relationship to the Qur'an.  Segovia had previously published an early draft of the article on academia, but this version (the final version as published in Oriens Christianus) is much bigger and better. 

    https://www.academia.edu/14169772/Abrahas_Christological_Formula_R%E1%B8%A5mnn_w-Ms%E1%B8%A5-hw_and_Its_Relevance_for_the_Study_of_Islams_Origins_2015_Scholarly_Article

    In footnote 19 there seems to be a reference to "unitarian Christians" in late-6th to mid-7th century Arabia and Iraq in a paper by Philip Wood, "Christianity in the Arabian Peninsula" (2015). The paper isn't up on Wood's academia.edu page.
    I'd like to know more about this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #799 - May 05, 2016, 11:20 PM

    You might just email Wood for a copy.  Unless there's some copyright restriction, I bet he'd be happy to send you it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #800 - May 05, 2016, 11:36 PM

    Do you have any idea what he might be referring to?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #801 - May 05, 2016, 11:43 PM

    It is one of the conference papers that was delivered for the Enoch seminar in 2015.  Those conference papers aren't all published yet; I believe a book will eventually be issued that compiles them.  Probably horribly expensive too.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #802 - May 06, 2016, 12:13 AM

    interesting Carlos Segovia is referring to Zaotar paper Smiley
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #803 - May 06, 2016, 09:46 AM

    So he is, I missed that.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #804 - May 07, 2016, 08:17 PM

    Does someone have an explication for verse 5:5

    "This day [all] good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. .."

    If people of the Scripture also include Christians, that would mean non-ritually slaughtered meat including pork would be allowed. Or is the use of  "people of the Scripture" more restrictive here to only Jews, and why would that not be the case for mentions in other verses?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #805 - May 11, 2016, 12:35 PM

    Gabriel Said Reynolds - On the Presentation of Christianity in the Qurʾān and the Many Aspects of Qur'anic Rhetoric

    https://www.academia.edu/25228333/_On_the_Presentation_of_Christianity_in_the_Qurʾān_and_the_Many_Aspects_of_Quranic_Rhetoric_Al-Bayan_Journal_of_Qurʾan_and_Hadith_Studies_12_2014_42-54
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #806 - May 11, 2016, 09:00 PM

    Quote


    I don´t know, attributing all this strangeness concerning Christians and their doctrine in the Quran to irony and hyperboles is difficult to wholly accept. It doesn´t explain the strange reference to people of the book I mentioned in my previous post either (5:5). Also taking into consideration the doubt that exists on correct translation of so many verses, how can we be sure it´s a hyperbole or a wrong translation...

    Somehow I find it easier to believe the Judo-Christian heretics theory of Gallez and co, than the hyperbole explanation...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #807 - May 12, 2016, 10:12 AM

    I don´t know, attributing all this strangeness concerning Christians and their doctrine in the Quran to irony and hyperboles is difficult to wholly accept. It doesn´t explain the strange reference to people of the book I mentioned in my previous post either (5:5). Also taking into consideration the doubt that exists on correct translation of so many verses, how can we be sure it´s a hyperbole or a wrong translation...

    Somehow I find it easier to believe the Judo-Christian heretics theory of Gallez and co, than the hyperbole explanation...

    mundi gets few attractive words there but we must realize  here that this Judo-Christian heretics contribution to Islam  only applies to those 100s of copy/pasted  verses in Quran  and stories of OT&NT that we see in that book. But it does NOT apply  to Islam and its expansion across Arabian peninsula in early Islamic period.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #808 - May 13, 2016, 03:38 PM



    Carlos Segovia - The Quranic Noah and the making of the Islamic prophet

    https://psv4.vk.me/c404231/u8736870/docs/ef6cab4bcf3c/Carlos_A_Segovia-The_Quranic_Noah_and_the_Making_of_the_Islamic_Prophet_A_Study_of_Intertextuality_and_Religious_Identity_F.pdf

    Still in its infancy because of the overly conservative views and methods assumed by the majority of scholars working in it since the mid-19th century, the field of early Islamic and Quranic studies is one in which the very basic questions must nowadays be addressed with decision. Accordingly, this book tries to resituate the Quran at the crossroads of the conversations of old, to which its parabiblical narratives witness, and explores how Muhammad’s image – which was apparently modelled after that of the anonymous prophet repeatedly alluded to in the Quran – originally matched that of other prophets and/or charismatic figures distinctive in the late-antique sectarian milieu out of which Islam gradually emerged. Moreover, it contends that the Quranic Noah narratives provide a first-hand window into the making of Muhammad as an eschatological prophet and further examines their form, content, purpose, and sources as a means of deciphering the scribal and intertextual nature of the Quran as well as the Jewish-Christian background of the messianic controversy that gave birth to the new Arab religion. The previously neglected view that Muhammad was once tentatively thought of as a new Messiah challenges our common understanding of Islam’s origins.


    Carlos Segovia - Noah as Eschatological Mediator Transposed: From 2 Enoch 71-72 to the Christological Echoes of 1 Enoch 106.3 in the Qur'ān

    https://www.academia.edu/1534640/Noah_as_Eschatological_Mediator_Transposed_From_2_Enoch_71-72_to_the_Christological_Echoes_of_1_Enoch_106.3_in_the_Qurān_2011_Scholarly_Article
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #809 - May 13, 2016, 04:30 PM

    Zimriel makes a rather critical technical comment about Segovia's Noah book on his blog. Scroll down to "Carlos Segovia composes a new sura".

    http://zimriel.blogspot.co.uk/2016_04_24_archive.html
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