Qur'anic studies today

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Reply #1020 - September 08, 2016, 12:04 PM

Concerning the (non) use of diacritical marks (from E. Gallez site, le Messie et son Prophete) :

http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/subpages/Coran_&_diacritism-II_EN.htm

The article also mentions the Zuhayr inscriptions (discovered by Ghabban and supported by Hoyland) as a fraud...
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Reply #1021 - September 08, 2016, 12:36 PM

Quote
At this point, let us mention that the Internet furnishes several examples of pre-Koranic Arabic writings clearing attesting the use of diacritical points. Not all are trustworhty, like this one found recently and dated from 644, which mentions Zubayr and ‘Umar, and happens to be a fake intended to give credence to the idea of the region of Mecca being the craddle of Islam – particularly in order to have people believe that the type of writing of the most ancient copies of the Koran has its origin in that region (some have dubbed it hijâzi i.e. from Hijâz): on the contrary, studies show that Koranic writing, like the Koranic language, existed at that time only in Arabia Petraea, that is Syria

I don't see any argument given for it being a fake. Anyway here's the original article:

Ali Ghabban and Robert Hoyland - The Inscription of Zuhayr, the oldest Islamic Inscription (AH 24/AD 644)

http://www.academia.edu/3576977/The_Inscription_of_Zuhayr_the_oldest_Islamic_Inscription_AH_24_AD_644_

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Reply #1022 - September 08, 2016, 12:57 PM

Quote from: mundi on September 08, 2016, 12:04 PM
.............

The article also mentions the Zuhayr inscriptions (discovered by Ghabban and supported by Hoyland) as a fraud...

"ALL FAITHS ARE FRAUD., ALL FAITH BOOKS ARE NOTHING BUT FAIRY TALES AND SILLY SAYINGS SPRINKLED WITH FEW GOOD WORDS "

The only thing that I will give to these faith heads is .. "Freedom to explore their respective faiths as an hypothesis/proposal that need to be explored and experimented " and I reserve the rights to criticize their hypothesis and their proposals until they prove their faith fairy tales are unquestionable facts and truth nothing but truth

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #1023 - September 08, 2016, 01:02 PM

Relevance?

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Reply #1024 - September 08, 2016, 01:04 PM

Quote from: zeca on September 08, 2016, 01:02 PM
Relevance?

Fraud.. Frauds ..people exploring past frauds

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Reply #1025 - September 08, 2016, 01:55 PM

Zuhayr inscriptions:

I dont know if these inscriptions are fake. I just think we should be critical.

When I first came across the Ghabban article I thought it was very strange. I had not read any negative comments about it elsewhere yet. But these inscriptions, found at the top of a sandstone rock, not shielded from wind erosion...1400 years is a long time.

We are talking of soft sandstone here, not basalt rock. Say the inscription was1 cm deep (is a lot for graffiti), that would mean maximum erosion of less than 1 mm per century would be allowed for some trace to be left today...

But the inscription is still perfectly legible... No description or theory has been giving concerning its conservation.(the sandstone inscriptions in Egypt eg that are preserved are always shielded from erosion)

Only later I found other people being critical of this find. I dont think we should just accept everything that an academic writes without examining the find critically. Or am I overcritical here? I know that dr Ghabban has an excellent reputation at the Supreme Commission for Tourism in Riyadh, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
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Reply #1026 - September 08, 2016, 02:15 PM

mundi revealing scriptures
Quote from: mundi on September 08, 2016, 01:55 PM
.....I don't think we should just accept everything that an academic writes without examining the find critically. .......

seriously., that is the key to progress in every field dear mundi

Quote
...Or am I overcritical here?......

no..nope., you are not., even if you are ., there is nothing wrong in it in the sense ., in debates and discussions it will allow to get life and brings new points on to the table...

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
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Reply #1027 - September 08, 2016, 03:01 PM

Thanks Yeez for the support!
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Reply #1028 - September 08, 2016, 03:48 PM

Quote from: mundi on September 08, 2016, 01:55 PM
I dont know if these inscriptions are fake. I just think we should be critical.

I don't disagree with this and I'd have no idea how to judge if an Arabian inscription is authentic or not. My objection really is that the article simply states that it's fake without giving any arguments to back it up.

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Reply #1029 - September 08, 2016, 04:01 PM

Quote from: mundi on September 08, 2016, 01:55 PM
Zuhayr inscriptions:

I dont know if these inscriptions are fake. I just think we should be critical. ....

I know that dr Ghabban has an excellent reputation at the Supreme Commission for Tourism in Riyadh, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia

Blasphemy :-)

It is only infidel xians who find the grave of Arthur and Guinevere, complete with 12th Century inscriptions, or have the holy prepuce in several cathedrals.

Islam would never do that, like set up Jerusalem in competition with Mecca and build mosques facing in different directions depending on their allegiance, or destroy all the archaeology of Mecca (if there was any in the first place) or have almost complete control on versions of the quran.

I think tourism and Mecca might be a very fruitful vein to dig into, pilgrammage is only the old form of tourism. Follow the money and the hotel keepers ;-)

http://www.historyextra.com/article/culture/medieval-tourism-pilgrimages-and-tourist-destinations

Identical things were happening in Islam. Fraud and fakery is an indispensible part of this. How else do you get people to visit your holy site?

The reality is that fake should be the immediate presumption.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #1030 - September 08, 2016, 04:11 PM

Hi Moi,

I think your position on pilgrimage is interesting. I can imagine that there must of been a real pull to host Mecca in proto-Islam. Difficult to believe Mohammed had the location right at the time of his revelations, no?

Let´s compare with the modern competition for hosting the Olympics...process is like sausages, you dont want to know what went in...
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Reply #1031 - September 08, 2016, 04:35 PM

Been watching Star Trek Deep space 9 ;-) The Ferengi and their attitude to women is of note.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #1032 - September 08, 2016, 04:38 PM

Getting millions of people to go to a dump with dirty water in the middle of a desert is pretty impressive. Only allowing true believers in is a classic marketing gambit;-)

Did they get bored with war or was it a natural expansion of business?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Re: Qur'anic studies today
Reply #1033 - September 09, 2016, 01:14 PM

Quote from: fajfall on September 07, 2016, 01:26 AM
...................A hypothesis of mine is that the Qur'an was hurriedly compiled from multiple sources (hence contradictory punishments for the same offence), without time to re-edit (hence absence of the correct death penalty).............

What are your thoughts?

Hmm., and my thoughts are ., That is a great point on Quran dear fajfall., I say and I think that statement to you is revealed by Allah., What do you say?

and..and .. this wonderful person you see here .,She is fan of Mr. Amitabh Bachchan of India

She Penned an article on Mr. Amitabh Bachchan and his letter to his granddaughter

could you please read that and tell me..was she right or wrong? .. Please read it

I am sure you know Prophet Bachchan of Indian Bollywood indeed "Muhammad(PBUH) of Indian film Industry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DovUEruZ2q4

I am glad to read you fajfall and welcome to Den...

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #1034 - September 09, 2016, 06:26 PM

On how the word "muslim" came to mean "muslim", seen through the theory (and pen?) of Gallez:

Quote
http://www.lemessieetsonprophete.com/annexes/Muslim_the_Word.htm

- first use: not before end 7 C, beginning 8 th C AD
- is indication of link with Gospel of Matthew, Aramaic version (Peshitta)
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Reply #1035 - September 09, 2016, 07:24 PM

Quote from: mundi on September 09, 2016, 06:26 PM
................. the theory of Gallez...........

.....

the theory of Gallez? . what is going on mundi? what is happening mundi? you are running in to uncharted forbidden territories?

who is Gallez.? what is Gallez theory on f origins of Islam?? . THE ROOTS ISLAM..

Gallez... ......... Gallez... ......... Gallez... ......... Gallez... ......... that French name has a great story behind it mundi

this French beauty is a great actress .. great person and great words from her ., I hope Europeans opens their eyes on what she is saying..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #1036 - September 09, 2016, 07:49 PM

haha Yeez, you don´t know who Gallez is? There is a good resume of his theory but it´s in French.
https://legrandsecretdelislam.com/tag/olaf/

If you dont speak that language you´ll have a more difficult job understanding it through the English links found on this website: http://www.lemessieetsonprophete.com/annexes/index.htm

Basically Gallez says that Islam is the result of an alliance gone sour of the Arabs with judeo-christians (the Nazareans), and the Arabs reusing the texts of the Nazareans for their own purpose, thus creating a new religion.

It´s a complete theory explaining all the oddities we are questioning here on this forum. But it´s a theory...so lots of fun discussion potential!

Since I´m not a muslim, no territory is forbidden for me. And of course repeating the generally accepted is rather boring, so I prefer the controversial...
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Reply #1037 - September 12, 2016, 05:26 PM

Karen Bauer - Room for Interpretation: Qur'anic Exegesis and Gender (PhD dissertation)

http://www.academia.edu/8377940/PhD_Dissertation_-_Room_for_Interpretation_Quranic_Exegesis_and_Gender

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Reply #1038 - September 13, 2016, 04:53 PM

IQSA annual meeting 2016: https://iqsaweb.wordpress.com/annual-meeting-2016/

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Reply #1039 - September 14, 2016, 10:02 AM

Devin Stewart - Review of "Studies in early Islamic tradition" by Dr. Suliman Bashear

http://www.academia.edu/10276019/Review_of_Studies_in_early_Islamic_tradition_by_Dr._Suliman_Bashear

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Reply #1040 - September 14, 2016, 02:05 PM

thats great
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Reply #1041 - September 14, 2016, 06:35 PM

Quote from: zeca on August 22, 2016, 10:06 AM
The Qurʾān between Judaism and Christianity - lectures organised by Holger Zellentin at the University of Nottingham

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/the-quran-between-judaism-and-christianity-lecture-1-saturday-17-sept-registration-27194295871

The first of the series of lectures is this Saturday, free but registration required, Gabriel Said Reynolds speaking among others.

https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/theology/news-events/quran-lectures-2016.aspx
Quote
A Public Engagement Initiative funded by the British Academy, hosted at The University of Nottingham, and co-sponsored by the Karimia Institute.

What can the Qurʾān, the Holy Scripture of Islam, teach us about Judaism and Christianity? How does knowledge about Judaism and Christianity help us better to understand the Qurʾān? This public lecture series seeks to make cutting edge research in Islamic Studies accessible to the broader public. The speakers integrate literary and historical approaches in order to illustrate the intricate relationship between Jews, Christians, and Muslims. A better understanding of the past may in turn help us to reconsider the present in a more nuanced way, and to formulate answers to the challenges faced by the Muslim communities in the Western World and beyond. The talks will be followed by a response and a discussion. Attendance is free and open to the public, but registration is required.

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Reply #1042 - September 15, 2016, 01:19 AM

Quote from: zeca on September 14, 2016, 10:02 AM
Devin Stewart - Review of "Studies in early Islamic tradition" by Dr. Suliman Bashear

... peace be upon him.

Bashear was one of the greats in this field; I've read a number of those articles published in this book, in the journals, and always wished I could have them in one place.
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Reply #1043 - September 15, 2016, 08:57 PM

Ordered the Bashear book. I've never read his material but it sounds very interesting.
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Reply #1044 - September 16, 2016, 02:35 AM

This is an interesting piece on the position of women pre-Islam:

http://www.arabhumanists.org/arab-women-pre-islam/

Apparently women´s situation retrograded with the introduction of Islam.

Info I am still missing is where did the polygamy of Islam come from? Jews and Christians didn´t accept it in 7C. Which cultures of that time did? Or was it an Muslim-Arab re-initiation? I can imagine it was an attractive feature for some that might have encouraged conversions...
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Reply #1045 - September 16, 2016, 10:17 AM

Torah does not forbid a man from having multiple wives. Abraham, Jacob, David and Solomon are notable examples of biblical figures who wedded more than one wife.

Approximately one thousand years ago, the noted German scholar Rabbi Gershom “the Light of the Diaspora” banned polygamy.1 This ban was accepted as law by all Ashkenazic Jews, but was not recognized by Sephardic and Yemenite communities.
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Reply #1046 - September 16, 2016, 12:11 PM

Hi Fajfall,

So are you saying jews still allowed polygamy in 7 C?
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Reply #1047 - September 16, 2016, 12:27 PM

Quote from: fajfall on September 16, 2016, 10:17 AM
.......Abraham, Jacob, David and Solomon are notable examples of biblical figures who wedded more than one wife..............

RASCALS.........

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Reply #1048 - September 16, 2016, 12:41 PM

Quote from: mundi on September 16, 2016, 12:11 PM
Hi Fajfall,

So are you saying jews still allowed polygamy in 7 C?

Quote from: http://www.jta.org/1951/07/20/archive/yemenite-rabbis-and-moslem-religious-leaders-oppose-abolition-of-polygamy-in-israel
July 20, 1951

JERUSALEM (Jul. 19)

A delegation of 100 Yemenite rabbis, representing the Yemenite Jews in all parts of Israel, today appeared before Premier David Ben Gurion and expressed their opposition to certain sections of the law granting equal rights to women. The law was adopted two days ago at a special session of the Israel Parliament.

The rabbis opposed especially the introduction of monogamy. They argued that polygamy is allowed by the Torah. Many Jews from Oriental countries are still practicing polygamy in Israel. The rabbinical delegation also opposed a clause in the law giving property rights to women.

The delegation also discussed with the Premier various other problems concerning the life of Yemenite Jews in Israel, especially religious problems. The Premier explained to the rabbis that the Jews are now building Israel as a progressive community in which there is no place for ancient laws.

Four Moslem religious leaders today visited the Israel Minister for Religious Affairs and also expressed objections to certain sections of the new law and the banning of polygamy. The Minister told them that the law does not affect marriages and divorces which remain under the jurisdiction of the religious courts.

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Reply #1049 - September 16, 2016, 03:51 PM

If you examine all the scriptures where are polygamous marriages, these are all the folly of men and not the design of god (unless you hold that god had preplanned it all, then the mess is all god's fault)

Abraham was told by god that he would have many descendents. However when he told his wife Sarah that she laughed because she had been barren for so many years. She gave her husband her slave to have children with. Thanks Sarah from all the jealous women in the polygamous marriages. Later Sarah did end up having children
Then the children fought over inheritance. So what are the humans supposed to learn from this folly? I used the bible version of the story because the quran story is different but still troublesome.

Jacob was promised his beloved in exchange for working. But he gets tricked on his wedding day. So to get the woman he wanted then he stays to work for his father-in-law some more time. Jacob must have been a very poor judge of character to have not figured out what this employer was like even before he married the first sister. Both sisters had to be in on the trick as well otherwise the fsvourite would have run off with him if her family was really that bad. So if this is the proof that marrying more than one woman is ok, why is marrying two sisters not considered ok?

David had an affair with someone else's wife and she got pregnant. He tried to cover it up and when that failed he sent the man to get killed in battle. The baby got sick and died aparently as punshment for the parent's sins. So how does that show that polygamy is pure and helpful to people?

Solomon just had too many wives, most marriages were made for political reasons but they led him astray in worshipping idols. You'd think that jealous wives would be the problem but it was jealous god that was his problem, the god that made him the wisest and richest. He was not wise enough to take fewer wives?

None of these polygamous relationships were god's ideas just humans.

Just because there is an "existence" (can't think of a better term) in scripture does i to mean it should be followed as law. Also in scripture it says that I should not wear mixed fibers clothing such as linen and wool. So is polyester and cotton sinful? I made fire in the sabbath if you decide which day of the week that is. So for sure I am going to hell for that.? . Learn from scriptures about relationships not rules.

The unreligion, only one calorie
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