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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1620 - October 23, 2017, 10:16 AM

    Muriel Debié important paper (2016 in French) strikes femininely against the traditional account.
    https://www.academia.edu/31247639/Les_controverses_miaphysites_en_Arabie_et_le_Coran_p._137-156_in_Les_controverses_religieuses_en_syriaque_F._Ruani_dir._Paris_Geuthner_2016_%C3%89tudes_syriaques_13_

    Extracts in English (thanks to https://www.deepl.com/translator) :
    Quote
    Miaphysites controversies in Arabia and the Koran

    The idea of Jāhiliyya, a state of ignorance supposed to characterize Arabia before the revelation of the Koran, as it was built by Islamic tradition, continues to influence the perception of the pre-Islamic history of the peninsula and its inhabitants. The Arab-Muslim memory was formed on the distance of a pre-historic antiquity, in fact little documented by the scriptures , pre-existing to the Islamic history that begins with the Prophet and the revelation of the Koran . It has helped to prevent Arabia from thinking about Arabia in the context of Late Antiquity since its history begins at nine with Muḥammad, with a forerunner - plunged into the darkness of ignorance, only embellished with the great one tradition of pre-Islamic poetry - and one after, illuminated by the truth descended into the Koran. So much so that it's only recently and in a way
    still insufficient that Arabia has been reintegrated into the concert of nations or rather late ancient empires.
    Because his antiquity is neither the one classical studies - which have forged the concept of late antiquity -, nor that of the Islamists, for whom history begins in Muḥammad, the study of pre-Islamic Arabia remains an imprecise zone at the intersection between current academic disciplines.
    [...] The absence of writings other than epigraphic and the absence of Arabic script also contributed to forging the idea that Arabia was outside the prevailing movements of ideas and cultures in late antiquity, plunging it into obscurantism . The insistence on tribes and thus an unwritten Bedouin culture, as developed by the Islamic tradition, which emphasizes oral poetry as the only place where tribal Arab memory was built before Islam, has also contributed to considering pre-Islamic Arabs as illiterate . This position makes it difficult to explain Jewish and Christian influences in the Qur' an, if the Arab world were indeed cut off from the literate networks (the way of conceiving the Qur' an as revealed and thus free of contacts with other religious groups further accentuates this aspect).
    [...] The acts of the "Western" Councils (west of the Tiger) have retained the names of the bishops of the Arab tribes and the Roman province of Arabia. The Acts of the Councils of the Church of the East enable us to trace the hierarchies present on the shores of the Persian Gulf and up to and including al-Ḥīra, and draw the contours of the temptations of independence from the Catholicos of Seleucia-Cesiphon. Like the others, the Arabs participated in the movements of religious definitions. Christianity was a major component of tribal culture, although of course only part of them and their members had adopted Christianity.
    The term "Christian Arabic" is problematic in this respect because it seems to define a unified identity different from that of non-Christian Arabs (polytheists and Jews, in particular, later Muslims).
    Here, as elsewhere, the question of Christian affiliations must invite us to be attentive to pluralism that controversial literature expresses. It is not only different churches that are competing with each other (Byzantine Churches, Syrian, Egyptian and Ethiopian Miaphysites, Syro-Eastern Churches of the Eastern Church), but also networks of individual and collective fidelity that are emerging through visits and exchanges of letters: networks of intellectual, dogmatic and spiritual proximity, if not geographical, across topographical and climatic barriers, as well as anthropological and linguistic barriers, and across political boundaries. With al-Ḥārith ibn Jabalah/Arethas ( 520-569/70) appearing as the patron saint of the miaphysites and appealing to Empress Theodora to obtain a bishop of his denomination (Theodore, ordained in 542/3 by Jacques Baradée for the ḥirta d-tayyoye the "Camp of the Arabs" ),  the question of the controversies between Chalcedonians and non-Chalcedonians lies at the heart of the relations between the Eastern Roman Empire and its Arab clients. al-Ḥārith or his son Mundhir sponsored a meeting between Miaphysites opponents whose chronicle of Michel the Syrian reports and which took place at Bet Mar Serge's monastery in GBYT' : Peter of Callinice, patriarch of Antioch (581-591), and Damien of Alexandria (578-605), who clashed over accusations of tritheism, i. e. on properties, roles and relations in Trinity . The meeting was stormy, the participants almost came to their hands and the outcome was inconclusive.
    In Arabia proper, controversies arise through the correspondence of Syrian bishops. The letters written by three contemporaries, Jacques de Saroug (452-521), Philoxène de Mabboug (around 440-523) and Siméon de Bet Aršam (m. about 540) show that three major figures of the Miaphysite movement, who were also active controversies, had regular links with Arabia. They testify to the influence in the peninsula of the contemporary controversies between Christians and Jews and between the different Christian denominations: between Miaphysites and Nestorians on the one hand and between Miaphysites on the other, while divisions within the opponents of Chalcedony raged.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1621 - October 23, 2017, 11:47 AM

    You'll get your answers, I'm on it.

    Hope it will break some grounds and  drill some  holes into the brains of so-called  SCHOLARS OF EARLY ISLAMIC HISTORY  who are professors in history departments .    With exception of  this wonderful scholar   and few more who were thrown out of  Academic departments of history because of their  non-traditional  views on Islam,  What I see  since  1950s  to to this day is  writing nonsense from hadith as "HISTORY OF  ISLAM "

    Quote
    I think I have the landscape, all the sources are here, it suffices just to read them outside the traditional account (Arabic prophet, Mecca/Medina, Zem-Zem well, etc).

    what??   all the sources are here?? here??  in this forum??

    with best wishes to your work
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1622 - October 23, 2017, 03:16 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/phoenixnl/status/922450638738468864 & https://mobile.twitter.com/Moudhy/status/922452435305721857
    Quote
    Can't make this up
    1. Kufic script isn't from Kufa
    2. Square Kufic is unrelated to Kufic
    3. Pseudo-Kufic is imitation Arabic; also non-Kufic

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1623 - October 23, 2017, 03:30 PM

    Articles by Holger Zellentin:

    Aḥbār and Ruhbān: Religious Leaders in the Qurʾān in Dialogue with Christian and Jewish Literature

    https://www.academia.edu/34810735/_Aḥbār_and_Ruhbān_Religious_Leaders_in_the_Qurʾān_in_Dialogue_with_Christian_and_Jewish_Literature_in_Qurʾānic_Studies_Today_edited_by_A._Neuwirth_and_M._Sells_Routledge_Studies_in_the_Qurʾān_New_York_Routledge_2016_258-89

    Trialogical Anthropology: The Qurʾān on Adam and Iblis in View of Rabbinic and Christian Discourse

    https://www.academia.edu/34810624/_Trialogical_Anthropology_The_Qurʾān_on_Adam_and_Iblis_in_View_of_Rabbinic_and_Christian_Discourse_in_Rüdiger_Braun_and_Hüseyin_Çiçek_eds._The_Quest_for_Humanity_Contemporary_Approaches_to_Human_Dignity_in_the_Context_of_the_Qurʾānic_Anthropology_Cambridge_Scholars_Press_2017_54-125
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1624 - October 23, 2017, 04:36 PM

    That's the solution found : changing the meaning of the word because this meaning is unbearable for the commentators. But the meaning is of course 'despair' like the other occurrences. Keep the word but change the meaning.

    Gabriel Said Reynolds gives quite an impressive example of changing the meaning of a word in this article. It’s also instructive on the way modern scholars can still insist on sticking with the meaning given by exegesis.

    The Muslim Jesus: Dead or alive?

    https://www3.nd.edu/~reynolds/index_files/jesus%20dead%20or%20alive.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1625 - October 23, 2017, 05:51 PM

    Hope it will break some grounds and  drill some  holes into the brains of so-called  SCHOLARS OF EARLY ISLAMIC HISTORY  who are professors in history departments .    With exception of  this wonderful scholar   and few more who were thrown out of  Academic departments of history because of their  non-traditional  views on Islam,  What I see  since  1950s  to to this day is  writing nonsense from hadith as "HISTORY OF  ISLAM "

    I think that’s missing out an awful lot, and missing out a lot of scholars (though see Reynolds’ article above). Maybe it’s time to watch Holger Zellentin again on qur’anic studies today (from the OP).
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=589&v=mXYMLut8WCI
    Quote from: yeezevee
    what??   all the sources are here?? here??  in this forum??

    I’m doing my best.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1626 - October 23, 2017, 08:04 PM


    what??   all the sources are here?? here??  in this forum??

    with best wishes to your work
    yeezevee


    The sources are between Qumran and Quran   Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1627 - October 23, 2017, 08:54 PM

    More pre-Islamic Arabic inscriptions found: https://mobile.twitter.com/phoenixnl/status/922551490161586176
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1628 - October 23, 2017, 09:30 PM

    Occasion to reread the article of Reynolds (the case of  tawaffā )and re watching the Holger video. Thanks Zeca.
    Reynolds has comprehended something very important I think. He stated it one or two times in Academia sessions. S. Anthony got a memorable reaction to that, he was angry. But he's wrong and Reynolds was right. I do not really know if Reynolds has drawn the consequences of his assertion, because it still does not appear in his last works. The assertion is quite simple : the "Muslims" do not comprehend their book. I think he's perfectly right here. The next step is to say that they do not comprehend their book whereas they claim that it comes from them, from an Arab like they are. Then how can that be that  they are not agree about  the simple comprehension of almost each verse of the book ? To me the response is quite clear : they are not related to the fabrication of the book at all. That's why they have so many issues with it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1629 - October 24, 2017, 03:13 AM

    Altara,

    Clear Islam of 622 was very different from Islam of the hadith, 200 yrs later. But as you mentioned before, something (a nucleus ideology?) must have kept Muslims together also in these beginning years?
    Maybe how their precursors, the Nabateans, did this can shed some light on the issue? Dan Gibson has a new video out on the topic:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYV2YzhTKI0

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1630 - October 24, 2017, 10:40 AM

    Altara,

    Clear Islam of 622 was very different from Islam of the hadith, 200 yrs later............. [/url]



    well   We don't need to go to that far 200 years later from that year 622 .. the alleged migration of Prophet of Islam from Mecca to so-called Yathrib (((alleged present Medina))) to escape ALLEGED persecution...

    the classical Islam story actually changes from the year  619... so called death of  Khadija

    Quote
    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
    620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
    621: First pledge at Aqaba.
    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph.


    So Islam story changes right at the year 619  all the way to year 632.  I am of the opinion the preacher  of Islam before 619 is different from the preacherS of Islam   from year 619 to 632....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1631 - October 24, 2017, 10:59 AM

    Quote
    Clear Islam of 622 was very different from Islam of the hadith, 200 yrs later.


    Well, I do not know that because we know it from the hadith of 200 yrs later Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1632 - October 24, 2017, 11:22 AM

    ..................I do not know .............. Wink


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PibDMGxiyJw

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1633 - October 24, 2017, 03:35 PM

    Islamic Cultures, Islamic Contexts: Essays in Honor of Professor Patricia Crone

    https://ia800400.us.archive.org/21/items/IslamicCulturesIslamicContexts/Islamic%20Cultures,%20Islamic%20Contexts.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1634 - October 24, 2017, 03:51 PM

    Islamic Cultures, Islamic Contexts: Essays in Honor of Professor Patricia Crone

    https://ia800400.us.archive.org/21/items/IslamicCulturesIslamicContexts/Islamic%20Cultures,%20Islamic%20Contexts.pdf

    good one..good stuff in it ..  thank you zeca...

    oh! threats of hell and hopes of Paradise!
    One thing  is certain this time flies away
    it is certain  that life flies away
    the rest are  lies  lies from the core
    flowers once  blown away dies forever


    .............Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam...............

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1635 - October 30, 2017, 06:33 PM

    Laïla Nehmé - New dated inscriptions (Nabataean and pre-Islamic Arabic) from a site near al Jawf, ancient Dūmah, Saudi Arabia

    https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/54231/AEN_3.8_final.pdf?sequence=3
    Quote
    This article publishes eighteen inscriptions: seventeen in the Nabataean script and one in the pre-Islamic Arabic script, all from the area of al-Jawf, ancient Dūmat al-Jandal, in north-west Arabia. It includes the edition of the texts as well as a discussion of their significance. The pre-Islamic Arabic text, DaJ144PAr1, is dated to the mid-sixth century ad. It is important because it is the first text firmly dated to the sixth century ad from north-west Arabia. The Nabataean texts are interesting because they are dated to the beginning of the second century ad and they mention both cavalrymen (Nabataean pršyʾ) and a centurion (Nabataean qnṭrywnʾ).


    Some excitement about this: https://mobile.twitter.com/phoenixnl/status/925016213536886784
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1636 - October 30, 2017, 11:03 PM

    That’s a phenomenal article, particularly when you consider that the Arabic script inscription appears to be both Christian (with a cross) and refers to Allah.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1637 - October 30, 2017, 11:26 PM

    That’s a phenomenal article, particularly when you consider that the Arabic script inscription appears to be both Christian (with a cross) and refers to Allah.


    What word would you have expected for God ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1638 - October 31, 2017, 12:34 AM

    That’s the name I’d expect, but it’s fascinating to see it in a context so close to the hijaz .... and in the mid sixth century.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1639 - November 01, 2017, 12:04 AM

    See this thread from Al-Jallad though: https://mobile.twitter.com/AENJournal/status/925442179182612480
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1640 - November 01, 2017, 12:04 AM

    Interesting inscription deconstructing the fable of a non monotheistic "Arabia" before Islam as recounted by the traditional account which seems, as time goes by, more being "salvation history" and nothing else, as the 'real world" discoveries contradicts it each time (Yemen, Najran, the East Coast).
    But the more surprising is finally not this. It is that 90% of scholars (Van Putten, Sinai, Anthony, etc.) still think that the traditional account is still reliable (yawn...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1641 - November 05, 2017, 10:00 AM

    Thread on the Birmingham Qur’an: https://mobile.twitter.com/shakerr_ahmed/status/921542737836544001
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1642 - November 06, 2017, 06:47 PM

    Marijn van Putten - The Status Quaestionis of ʿArabiyyah, Pre-Islamic Poetry and the Quran

    https://iqsaweb.wordpress.com/2017/11/06/the-status-quaestionis-of-ʿarabiyyah-pre-islamic-poetry-and-the-quran/amp/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1643 - November 06, 2017, 10:18 PM

    Marijn van Putten - The Status Quaestionis of ʿArabiyyah, Pre-Islamic Poetry and the Quran

    https://iqsaweb.wordpress.com/2017/11/06/the-status-quaestionis-of-ʿarabiyyah-pre-islamic-poetry-and-the-quran/amp/

     

    Does this mean the door is open to a "reread" of the rasm with possibly very different meanings?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1644 - November 07, 2017, 03:47 PM

    Ilkka Lindstedt - Muhājirūn as a Name for the First/Seventh Century Muslims

    https://www.academia.edu/11682900/Muhājirūn_as_a_Name_for_the_First_Seventh_Century_Muslims_JNES_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1645 - November 07, 2017, 04:32 PM

    Ilkka Lindstedt - Pre-Islamic Arabia and early Islam

    https://www.academia.edu/34575240/Pre-Islamic_Arabia_and_early_Islam_Routledge_Handbook_on_early_Islam_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1646 - November 11, 2017, 06:18 PM

    IQSA 2017 Annual Meeting Program Book

    https://iqsaweb.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/2017-iqsa-program-full-final-web-version.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1647 - November 12, 2017, 03:04 PM



    my  goodness  that is very big conference  ...  48 pdf pages..  lots of posters....   I wonder how many folks in that conference are REAL MUSLIMS ...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1648 - November 12, 2017, 04:34 PM

    I wonder how many folks in that conference are REAL MUSLIMS ...

    It may depend on how you define real Muslims, but in any case I suppose it’s not that many. Trump-era immigration controls wouldn’t help with this either.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1649 - November 12, 2017, 04:56 PM

    It may depend on how you define real Muslims,...............

     Cheesy Cheesy   ..   well let me add few words to define  a real Muslim



    "There is no god but God,  Muhammad is the messenger of God"
    we don't know who god  was  & who god is
    and we don't know who Muhammad was &  who Muhammad is  
    No book is word of god  
    and  no  god words  in  Quran "   

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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