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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1830 - March 30, 2018, 01:27 AM
    Muḥammad  is in fact everyone in the Islamic sources : "Jesus" as they wait for his "resurrection" after his death before they buried him, and in the same time  the Paraclete (yawn...) And Ali bluntly the "Messiah"...
    What else they could be ? Little green men ? Wake up guys !
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1831 - March 30, 2018, 02:49 AM
    Quote from: Altara on March 30, 2018, 01:27 AM
    Muḥammad  is in fact everyone in the Islamic sources : "Jesus" as they wait for his "resurrection" after his death before they buried him, and in the same time  the Paraclete (yawn...) And Ali bluntly the "Messiah"...
    Quote
     
    What else they could be ?
    Little green men ?
    Wake up guys !

     

      
    The problem in Islam and the  problem with Islam is NOT little green  men of  early Islamic literature   but the problem lies  with LITTLE GREEN MEN OF   20th and 21st CENTURY .   These little green men  have/had  ulterior motives are are doing it(did  it) for the sake of their academic careers or  some  oil loot money  form  the kings of Islam..or simply they were brainwashed  as kids NOW they are old so they become headless chickens  making same  old noises from the stories  early Islamic literature .

    Indeed Muḥammad  is  everyone in the Islamic sources.,
    He was and is all the good and all  the bad in Islam.,
    He  was Moses of Islam  and he was Jesus of Islam
    He  was Ādam  of Islam  and he was ʾIbrāhīm of Islam
     He  was Eber  of Islam  and he was ʾEnoch of Islam
     He  was Nūḥ  of Islam  and he was ʾSalah  of Islam
     He  was Lūṭ  of Islam  and he was ʾLOOTER   of Islam
    Muḥammad   was indeed a leader of Islam
    leader of many cartoon characters of Islam
    the funny thing in Islam is  
    there  was  NO REAL MUHAMMAD "the person" in Islam

    Muḥammad  is in fact everyone in the Islamic sources ....Altara
    well dear Atara you are right you are indeed on right path to  understand the origins of Islam..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1832 - March 30, 2018, 07:31 AM
    Quote from: Altara on March 30, 2018, 01:27 AM
    Muḥammad  is in fact everyone in the Islamic sources : "Jesus" as they wait for his "resurrection" after his death before they buried him, and in the same time  the Paraclete (yawn...) And Ali bluntly the "Messiah"...
    What else they could be ? Little green men ? Wake up guys !


    Wake up from what? What do you mean?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1833 - March 30, 2018, 02:06 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 30, 2018, 07:31 AM
    Wake up from what? What do you mean?


     Cheesy Cheesy  good questions dear  Mahgraye .,  i am sure you must have some idea of what Altara  was saying in that post
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1834 - March 30, 2018, 08:14 PM
    Dear yeezevee, I guess I did know what Altara was implying. But what is the evidence for his claim?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1835 - March 30, 2018, 08:27 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 30, 2018, 08:14 PM
    .............I guess I did know what Altara was implying. But what is the evidence for his claim?

      
    "Muhammad of Quran and   Muhammad in Quran"
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1836 - March 30, 2018, 08:58 PM
    I do not understand. You are welcome to elaborate on your position.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1837 - March 30, 2018, 09:22 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on March 30, 2018, 02:49 AM


    well dear Atara you are right you are indeed on right path to  understand the origins of Islam..
    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Dear Yeez,

    Thank you for your encouragements. Yes, I'm on it. Almost 400,000 words written down, 2000+ references, and some interventions in this forum. I know that I will startle Daniel Beck and  David Ross who are in the forum here as well, but I have an almost complete rational explication (without the angel Gabriel or unknowns places) 1) of the Quran and 2) of what happened next. All of this of course according to the sources, in setting aside the frame "Mecca/Medina/Prophet Muḥammad" which are either unknown places at that time or characters, except in the Quran.
    To comprehend the mess according to the sources, one have to set aside this frame.
    I did what P.Crone never did : setting aside the "Arab prophet" (thanks Wansbrough for the expression !). Because she was a great believer like Tesei, Anthony, Shoemaker, Donner and the rest. (The least ones are in my opinion Dye, Segovia and Reynolds..but they're hiding well.) That's why she's almost totally lost to explain something about the Quranic Pagan religion from the Quran (for example...) (https://www.hs.ias.edu/files/Crone_Articles/Crone_Quranic_Deities.pdf).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1838 - March 30, 2018, 10:39 PM
    Altara

    Please share some of your insights. Some questions: (1) what do you mean by describing Crone, Tesei, Shoemaker, Donner, and Anthony as “great believers“; (2) claiming that Dye, Segovia, and Reynolds' are “hiding well“; (3) what did Crone fail to explain about the Quranic Pagan religion; and (4) where can one read your article/book (is it a dissertation)? Why would Daniel Beck and David Ross be startled? And how is Medina unknown?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1839 - March 31, 2018, 12:00 AM
    0) Please share some of your insights.
    I just did. Reread me carefully.

    (1) what do you mean by describing Crone, Tesei, Shoemaker, Donner, and Anthony as “great believers“;
    Reread me carefully, you will comprehend.

    (2) claiming that Dye, Segovia, and Reynolds' are “hiding well“;
    Idem.

    (3) what did Crone fail to explain about the Quranic Pagan religion;
    She was lost ; see point 1

    (4) where can one read your article/book (is it a dissertation)?
    Not yet. Nope.

    (5)Why would Daniel Beck and David Ross be startled?
    Because they are great believers.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1840 - March 31, 2018, 12:26 AM
    These “great believers“ are all critical scholars who have their own good reasons for affirming historicity.

    And still don't understand why Dye, Segovia, and Reynolds are hiding at all. Please provide a convincing reason.

    Crone could have been wrong, but she was not lost for affirming historicity.

    Is your thesis a comprehensive one, like that of Edouard-Marie Gallez? He also affirms historicity. Is he also lost or hiding?

    I don't think you provided something conclusive for denying historicity, apart from your comment in relation to Amir-Moezzi's article, which I think was not convincing at all. Please provide something else in addition to that. Why should a historian deny historicity and affirm mythicism? I say this with all due respect.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1841 - March 31, 2018, 12:42 AM
    1) These “great believers“ are all critical scholars who have their own good reasons for affirming historicity.
    Then, they can give their sources about Mecca before Islam and Medina as well. Where are they ? They have to prove their affirmation. Do they ? No, they ask to "believe". They're great believers.

    2)And still don't understand why Dye, Segovia, and Reynolds are hiding at all. Please provide a convincing reason.
    Reread me carefully. They are believers, but a little less than others. They feel that there is a very big issue.

    3) Crone could have been wrong, but she was not lost for affirming historicity.
    She was lost about what I said.

    4) Is your thesis a comprehensive one, like that of Edouard-Marie Gallez? He also affirms historicity. Is he also lost or hiding?
    A comprehensive and rational one, yes. EMG's one is interesting because it is the first effort which reunite the Quran and the historical context in which it has emerged. I'll be the second.

    5) Why should a historian deny historicity and affirm mythicism?
    See point 1.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1842 - March 31, 2018, 01:48 PM
    Quote from: Altara on March 31, 2018, 12:42 AM
    .....................1) These “great believers“ are all critical scholars ..............


    what happened dear  Altara?     “great believers“ are  critical scholars    doesn't sound right..  well that is better than calling  scholars   as "you fools"    ...lol..  and this is a  good point  
    Quote from: Altara on March 31, 2018, 12:42 AM


    3) Crone could have been wrong, but she was not lost for affirming historicity.
    ....................


    do you think  Patricia Crone could not say  what she wanted to say/write on early Islam due to political reasons??

    i wonder how many of these scholars  who were  born after 1977  explored the subject  in the line of her 1977 book  " Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World"
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1843 - March 31, 2018, 02:39 PM
    Dear Yeez, you respond (above )to our friend Mahgraye. My response to him is below.

           
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1844 - March 31, 2018, 03:35 PM
    Quote from: Altara on March 31, 2018, 02:39 PM
    Dear Yeez, you responded (above )to our friend Mahgraye. .......


    oh!   i  see   ..oops my mistake in reading the post

    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 31, 2018, 12:26 AM
    These “great believers“ are all critical scholars who have their own good reasons for affirming historicity. .............

    dear  Mahgraye  by definition  “great believers“  CAN NOT BE  critical scholars .,they can at best be  story tellers  and at worse these great believers  selectively analyze their belief system..

    Quote from: Mahgraye  to yeezevee  on March 30, 2018, 08:58 PM
    I do not understand. You are welcome to elaborate on your position.

      well i do  that here &  there in tits  &  bits...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1845 - April 01, 2018, 11:34 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on March 31, 2018, 01:48 PM
    do you think  Patricia Crone could not say  what she wanted to say/write on early Islam due to political reasons??


    Yes. In London she was menaced and she was accepted and promoted in Princeton USA.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1846 - April 02, 2018, 02:46 AM
    Finally real interactions on this forum instead of just posting articles without any critical feedback.

    Thank you Magraya, Altara, Yeez!

    P.S. It would be nice if the exchanges were less cryptic
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1847 - April 02, 2018, 07:49 AM
    Quote from: Altara on April 01, 2018, 11:34 PM
    Yes. In London she was menaced and she was accepted and promoted in Princeton USA.


    interesting, can you provide a source.

    medina, yathrib is attested historically, in rock graffiti, Mecca not really as far as i am aware.

    there is no conspiracy, scholars are trying their best with the available documentary and archaeological evidence.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1848 - April 02, 2018, 07:54 AM
    Quote from: Zaotar on March 27, 2018, 08:47 PM
    I am not sure why Tesei writes so many articles on this narrow  subject, but this one is the best yet!


    Tesei  want to prove some surat were written after the death of Muhammed Smiley
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1849 - April 02, 2018, 08:34 AM
    Quote from: hatoush on April 02, 2018, 07:54 AM
    Tesei  want to prove some surat were written after the death of Muhammed Smiley


    why  only some surat  hatoush ??  A careful reading of existing Quran   tells me  allmost all of the surat were written after the death of Muhammad.  And I can also say,   much of the Quran   as  Arabic songs  and sonnets could have been written way before the birth of that  Islamic prophet character  "Muhammad"

    anyways let me watch this  

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INIG636SnU4

    interesting chit-chat on  " Islam, Judaism, and Christianity - A Conversation"   by Imam Omar Suleiman, Rabbi David Stern, and Saint Michael Rector Chris Girata. The conversation was moderated by Rev. Amy Heller, chaplain of the Episcopal School of Dallas
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1850 - April 02, 2018, 08:47 AM
    Quote
    Quote from: yeezevee on March 31, 2018, 01:48 PM
    ...............do you think  Patricia Crone could not say  what she wanted to say/write on early Islam due to political reasons??............

     
    Quote from: Altara on April 01, 2018, 11:34 PM
    Yes. In London she was menaced and she was accepted and promoted in Princeton USA.

    Quote from: hatoush on April 02, 2018, 07:49 AM
    interesting, can you provide a source.

    Quote
    medina, yathrib is attested historically, in rock graffiti, Mecca not really as far as i am aware.

    there is no conspiracy, scholars are trying their best with the available documentary and archaeological evidence.




    well   may be   Dr. Amaal Muhammad Al-Roubi    can   answer  that question..

    A Thesis submitted in fulfilment  of the requirements for the degree of  Doctor of Philosophy    School of Oriental Studies The University of Durham  1991 by  Salamah Sallh Sulayman Aladieh

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/faith-europe_islam/mohammed_3866.jsp

    https://www.meforum.org/articles/2000/who-was-the-prophet-muhammad
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1851 - April 02, 2018, 11:10 AM
    Quote from: hatoush on April 02, 2018, 07:49 AM
    interesting, can you provide a source.


    Do you think that she's said it publicly ?

    Quote from: hatoush on April 02, 2018, 07:49 AM
    medina, yathrib is attested historically, in rock graffiti, Mecca not really as far as i am aware.


    Yatrib is attested as "Lathripa" a kind of swamp as a step for caravan in the second century. "Medina" is not. "Medina" mean "city". Do you know a city who is called "city" in a Semitic language attested in the 4,5,6th.c There's one. Not in the peninsula.

    Quote from: hatoush on April 02, 2018, 07:49 AM
    there is no conspiracy, scholars are trying their best with the available documentary and archaeological evidence.


    Who's talking about conspiracy here?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1852 - April 02, 2018, 11:12 AM
    Quote from: hatoush on April 02, 2018, 07:54 AM
    Tesei  want to prove some surat were written after the death of Muhammed Smiley


    He should first prove that the "Prophet Muḥammad" has existed...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1853 - April 02, 2018, 01:20 PM
    Altara,

    Quote
    He should first prove that the "Prophet Muḥammad" has existed...


    Reading Shoemaker's "Death of a prophet", is there really still doubt he existed? That Mohammed wrote the Quran or not is another matter...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1854 - April 02, 2018, 01:37 PM
    Quote from: Altara on April 02, 2018, 11:10 AM
    Do you think that she's said it publicly ?


    well  they  were dangerous times   mid-80s to  mid -90s   oil money  floating  all over the west ...Islamic revolutions every where ..Rushdie affair  Russians  attacking   Afghanistan  ..western support  to   Islamic heroes at  the same time supporting Israeli state .....   with so many problems around  Islam  a  small  Danish Lady with an interest in History  of  Faiths  could NOT SURVIVE  going  against the tide..   anyways

    A gentle man ISLAMIC HISSS_TORIAN  wrote this....... actually  was a high school dropout....  about her
    Quote
    .............It should be noted that after I published my replies to Crone's writings, she removed all her personal data from the Internet, with the exception of her e-mail. It seems to me that she did not expect the translation of her book,  which I did with her permission, to be accompanied by a deliberate scientific study, and detailed accurate comments  not only on every idea but on every single word she  misrepresented.... .....

    well that  says a lot
    Quote
    .............Yatrib is attested as "Lathripa" a kind of swamp as a step for caravan in the second century. "Medina" is not. "Medina" mean "city...............

    ". .
     Cheesy Cheesy oh boy.. did you say that in  any meeting/symposium dear Altara ?

    Quote from: hatoush on April 02, 2018, 07:49 AM
    1). ........................  medina, yathrib is attested historically, in rock graffiti,  Mecca not really as far as i am aware.

    2).    ...there is no conspiracy, scholars are trying their best with the available documentary and archaeological evidence....


    those  two  points in your post  are very important to explore dear hatoush   but  I wonder

    Quote
    When  in the history of  Islam.,   yathrib became  Madina?? and  who changed the name??

    And by any chance., like Madina,   Did  Mecca had any different name??


    Simple questions  to explore ...yes .yes   the other point.,    NOT HISTORICALLY  but  historicity of  rock graffiti  is also important  to date  and explore..
     

    and  I  am very glad to read your posts ..  with  best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1855 - April 02, 2018, 01:54 PM
    Quote from: mundi on April 02, 2018, 01:20 PM
    Altara,

    Reading Shoemaker's "Death of a prophet", is there really still doubt he existed? That Mohammed wrote the Quran or not is another matter...

      

    well after  reading his book  I will  NOT conclude  "Muhammad  of Quran and Muhammad of  Hadith" is  the same person  that  is  described  in that 2012  book  of  dr.  Stephen J. Shoemaker..

    Quote
    C h a p t e r 1 “A Prophet Has Appeared, Coming with the Saracens” Muhammad’s Leadership during the Conquest of Palestine According to Seventh- and Eighth-Century Sources
    Quote
    At least eleven sources from the seventh and eighth centuries indicate in varied fashion that Muhammad was still alive at the time of the Palestinian conquest, leading his followers into the Holy Land some two to three years after he is supposed to have died in Medina according to traditional Islamic accounts.

     As will be seen, not all of these witnesses attest to Muhammad’s leadership with the same detail: some are quite specific in describing his involvement in the campaign itself, while others merely note his continued leadership of the “Saracens ” at this time. When taken collectively, however, their witness to a tradition that Muhammad was alive at the time of the Near Eastern conquests and continuing to lead his followers seems unmistakable. The unanimity of these sources, as well as the failure of any source to contradict this tradition prior to the emergence of the first Islamic biographies of Muhammad beginning in the mid-eighth century, speaks highly in their favor. In fact, no source outside the Islamic tradition “accurately” reports Muhammad’s death in Medina before the invasion of Palestine until the early ninth-century
    Quote
    Chronicle of Theophanes, a text that shows evidence of direct influence from the early Islamic historical tradition on this point

     as well as others. It would appear that this tradition of Muhammad’s continued vitality and leadership during the campaign in Palestine circulated widely in the ­ seventh- “A Prophet Has Appeared” 19 and eighth-century Near East. Although the majority of the relevant sources are of Christian origin, collectively they reflect the religious diversity of the early medieval Near East, including witnesses from each of the major Christian communities as well as a Jewish, a Samaritan, and even an Islamic witness to this discordant tradition. This confessional diversity is particularly significant, insofar as it demonstrates the relative independence of these accounts and the diffusion of this information across both geographic distance and sectarian boundaries. Indeed, the multiple independent attestation of this tradition in a variety of different sources demands that we take seriously the possibility that these eleven sources bear witness to a very early tradition about Muhammad. Presumably, it was a tradition coming from the early Muslims themselves, since it seems highly improbable that all of these sources would have so consistently stumbled into the exact same error concerning the end of Muhammad’s life. If this deviant report arose simply through misunderstanding, one would accordingly expect that at least some sources would have managed to understand these events “correctly.” At the very least, this evidence seems to indicate that a tradition of Muhammad’s death at Medina before the invasion of Palestine had not yet become clearly established prior to the beginnings of the second Islamic century. It should again be made clear from the outset, however, that the existence of this tradition invites much more than an opportunity simply to extend the longevity of Muhammad by a mere two or three years, and the discrepancy of the source materials on this point instead calls for some sort of explanation. Why are there very different memories concerning Muhammad ’s relation to the expansion of his religious movement outside of Arabia and his followers’ invasion of Roman territory in Syro-Palestine? Admittedly, one cannot entirely exclude the possibility that the difference is simply the result of a collective misunderstanding, but as this chapter will argue, the nature of the sources in question renders this solution improbable. The fact that no source, Islamic or non-Islamic, from the first Islamic century locates Muhammad’s death before the Near Eastern invasions indicates that it is not simply a matter of having guessed incorrectly. Possibly the esteem expressed for Muhammad by members of this new religious movement may have led each of these non-Islamic writers to the false assumption that he remained in charge for a few years longer than had actually been the case. Such a scenario is certainly not inconceivable, but it would imply that a profound and prolonged ignorance regarding the basic “facts” about Islam’s founding prophet remained pervasive in the various non-Islamic religious communities of the 20 chapter 1 seventh and early eighth centuries. Indeed, if the earliest Muslims had clearly recalled from the start that Muhammad died two years before their invasion of Syria and...

    well i  can delete  a lot from the first chapter of his book .,writing a story book with "I said.,.....he said..........she said......   who   said  "............. is easy    but  the evidence presented IS NOT conclusive  ..   for example ....  Historical  figures such as..   Alexander  or   Buddha ...  ..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1856 - April 02, 2018, 02:06 PM
    Quote from: mundi on April 02, 2018, 01:20 PM
    Altara,

    Reading Shoemaker's "Death of a prophet", is there really still doubt he existed? That Mohammed wrote the Quran or not is another matter...


    You do not comprehend that the  "Mecca" fact and "Prophet Muḥammad" are identified. If one does not exist, the other does not , as they are bonded to one another according to the traditional account.
    There not a single micro trace of "Mecca" before Islam such as recounted by the traditional account. Shoemaker can say what he wants, he re recounts the same story he draws from it. That has a name : midrash.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1857 - April 02, 2018, 03:20 PM
    Altara,

    Quote
    You do not comprehend that the  "Mecca" fact and "Prophet Muḥammad" are identified. If one does not exist, the other does not , as they are bonded to one another according to the traditional account.


    Why are they connected? Is there still any doubt that the traditional account with the description of the life of Mohammed is imagination with at best a core of truth in it?

    But the Arabs did conquer their empire. And the general who started it was apparently called Mohammed. Isn't that interesting enough without having him connected to Mecca? (which indeed is highly improbable)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1858 - April 02, 2018, 07:57 PM
    Quote from: mundi on April 02, 2018, 03:20 PM
    Altara,

    Why are they connected? Is there still any doubt that the traditional account with the description of the life of Mohammed is imagination with at best a core of truth in it?

    But the Arabs did conquer their empire. And the general who started it was apparently called Mohammed. Isn't that interesting enough without having him connected to Mecca? (which indeed is highly improbable)

     Are those highlighted  words of your post   sarcastic??  if they are then you beat me  in writing confusing posts ..  if not i would  disagree  with this  dear  mundi.,  
    Quote
    ........."But the Arabs did conquer their empire. And the general who started it was apparently called Mohammed" ............

    Real  Arab  pagans  have NOT conquered  anything  ..neither they  built any empire ..   "In Islam,   conquering other nations,  other cultures means,    it is all about the  Muslim converts conquering their own lands or at best neighboring nations  and  fighting  their own past   in the name of Allah  & Muhammad "

    How many of us  know/knew   " that the name Muhammad did not even  exist as a name before Islam ,and   "Muhammad" name just appears after the death of alleged Prophet of Islam??

    and even if you look  at the story of  Muhammad that is told in stories.. it goes like this ..  please  click the link and read....

    Chronological History of Islam

    Look at the first post in that folder and tell me How much of   Arabian peninsula   did that GENERAL MUHAMMAD conquered  during his life time??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #1859 - April 02, 2018, 09:35 PM
    Yeez,

    No sarcasm here. I really don't see why we need to believe the Islamic tradition if we concede that an Arabic general named Mohammed attacked the Byzantine empire. I'm not saying there is a direct link between Mohammed and the Quran. There could be, but most probably he had no time to dictate these boring Surahs. If there is a connection he might more likely have outsourced the redaction of a holy text.

    Historically we have evidence of a general and of a book. That's about it.
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