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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2970 - August 07, 2018, 09:43 PM

    Guys, what do you think is the significance of the story told by Yousef Kouriyhe in the documentary Jésus et l'islam?


    where is the link to that 'documentary ??


    Slaves and Slave mentality :   " Assyrian people for centuries lived as slaves to foreign policies in order to divide-and-conquer our nation through meaningless theological divisions since the days of Nestorius. He also pointed out that our church fathers have misinterpreted the real theory of Nestorius in accordance with Coptic and Byzantine interests. The result is that the Assyrian nation has come to the edge of extinction because we have been taught a false history." ..............Dr. Yousef Kourihye

    People who speak truth in the History of Faiths have very little relevance in the present day hawkish historians

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2971 - August 07, 2018, 09:59 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGhy8gbLses
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2972 - August 07, 2018, 10:01 PM

    He is a Semitist and a colleague of Nicolai Sinai at Corpus Coranicum.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2973 - August 07, 2018, 10:27 PM

    What do you mean?

    Thanks for the reference.


    Quote
    they say, If He were one he
    would have said I have done, I have created, and soon, but He is He and
    Jesus and Mary.


    I understand this passage as the fact those christians from Najran did believe in a Trinty with God, Jesus and Mary.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2974 - August 07, 2018, 10:29 PM

    Could be the same case with Q 5:116, were mother is another word for the Holy Spirit. Or it could be based on Q 5:116 were the impression is that Mary is part of the Trinity.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2975 - August 07, 2018, 10:30 PM

    To the best of my knowledge, no Christian denomination ever considered Mary as being part of the Trinity.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2976 - August 07, 2018, 10:54 PM

    Maggraye,

    Look at the list! I know it is weird, but 97:4-5 is not there. Maybe 97 is archaic but only added later?

    I think this is an important point. We have accepted early collection of the "complete" Quran, but looking at the list, I must review my position. It is statistically impossible to have the first half so frequently extantly present and the last half much rarer.


    It depends what you call early. Obviously, the main part of the text is old i.e. predates Muhammad but, in the first half of 700, John Damascus mention a surah that is nowhere to be found today, in the 8th/9th century, Muhammad and islamic salvation history were being written. Therefore, one can wonder when the Quran text was finally fixed  ; small touch up to the text were probably added in those centuries.

    Corpus Coranica completion will probably be a schock when results will come out.

    In the meantime, if you speak French, watch that video ; there are some examples of strange addition vs old manuscripts. This is a woman talking but her voice was blurred on purpose.  

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH1_laARjpQ&t=191s

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2977 - August 07, 2018, 11:00 PM

    John of Damascus' claims must be taken with a grain of salt. Marijn van Putten is soon going to publish a landmark study on this very topic. He will demonstrate that by the year AD 650, the consonantal skeleton reached closure and the text ceased to be open to further change and redaction. Changes after the year AD 690 are only orthographic ones, and are due to improvement of the Arabic script.

    Thanks, Marc S, for the book. Looks very interesting. Gotta say, the chant in the beginning of the video is just marvelous.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2978 - August 07, 2018, 11:17 PM

    Quote
    . Marijn van Putten is soon going to publish a landmark study on this very topic. He will demonstrate that by the year AD 650, the consonantal skeleton reached closure and the text ceased to be open to further change and redaction.


    Interesting. I will see to that. Is it going to be a book or a paper ?

    Quote
    the consonantal skeleton reached closure


    It doesn't go against erasing a full suras (as we could deduct from John of Damascus writings) or verses, or did I miss something ? Another explanation could be that some suras ended up as ahadith.

    Quote
    Gotta say, the chant in the beginning of the video is just marvelous.


    Catholic stuff. By the way, the woman who is being interviewed belongs to the Gallez galaxy. They are on a war path.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2979 - August 07, 2018, 11:21 PM

    Quote
    Interesting. I will see to that. Is it going to be a book or a paper?

     

    Paper.

    Quote
    It doesn't go against erasing a full suras (as we could deduct from John of Damascus writings) or verses, or did I miss something ? Another explanation could be that some suras ended up as ahadith.

     

    Can't go both ways. If the rasm and the text reached closed by the mid-seventh century, then is no room for further additions. The whole point of a Marwanid-era dating is that the text was open to change and redaction until ca. 700.

    Quote
    Catholic stuff. By the way, the woman who is being interviewed belongs to the Gallez galaxy. They are on a war path.

     

    I noticed that immediately. Seems that Gallez is very popular. You do not seem to be a huge fan of him, ha ha.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2980 - August 08, 2018, 06:20 AM

    Again I emphasize the list in table 2 of the Islamic awareness site. If the Quran was complete by 650 (what I previously assumed bc of the C14 and the very numerous very old manuscripts found), it is statistically very unlikely that all of the later Surah's are not found in about the same frequency as the earlier ones.

    The later Surahs must have been added later (although they might be very archaic). I know it is counter intuitive but the existing facts cannot just be brushed aside.

    Or were only the first Surahs considered as theologically relevant in the beginning and maybe although the later ones were considered quranic,  not copied with the same intensity?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2981 - August 08, 2018, 07:44 AM


    I noticed that immediately. Seems that Gallez is very popular. You do not seem to be a huge fan of him, ha ha.



    No I have nothing against him. I don't adhere to his assumptions regarding the beginning of islam but his book and his Quran exegesis are interesting and worth looking into. He sometimes however goes into conclusion that are not in line with what you would expect from the sources he quotes. The issue is that different scholars have been rerleasing works on islam and they quote Gallez butthey seem to take his conclusions for granted without a critical and careful review . That is the part that bother me.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2982 - August 08, 2018, 09:00 AM

    it is statistically very unlikely that all of the later Surah's are not found in about the same frequency as the earlier ones.

    Just on this point I think there may be a tendency for pages at the beginning and end of codices to be lost more frequently. Consider any old book with the covers missing and there’s a fair chance that a few pages have gone missing as well.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2983 - August 08, 2018, 09:16 AM

    Statistics:

    Surah 2 isn't suffering from excessive wear and tear... No, the difference is too big. Further research necessary before concluding it is "by chance". The most probable cause at first glance is:
    1/ Late addition to the Corpus from about Surah 60
    or
    2/ Early addition to the corpus with sequential removal and addition again.
    or
    ?

    From Surah 60 and further we also see that the classification from longer to shorter is seriously jumbled. Indication of later additions/removals/additions?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2984 - August 08, 2018, 12:15 PM

    Could be the same case with Q 5:116, were mother is another word for the Holy Spirit. Or it could be based on Q 5:116 were the impression is that Mary is part of the Trinity.


    It is a false impression. Mary is venerated but is not part of the Trinity.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2985 - August 08, 2018, 12:19 PM

    Mary:

    But why describe a false trinity? What does it say about the author of the Quran?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2986 - August 08, 2018, 12:37 PM

    The same thing it says about every other human author of every other "holy" text.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2987 - August 08, 2018, 12:42 PM

    Guys, what do you think is the significance of the story told by Yousef Kouriyhe in the documentary Jésus et l'islam?


    Jesus was created like Adam.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2988 - August 08, 2018, 12:43 PM

    Mary:

    But why describe a false trinity? What does it say about the author of the Quran?


    Because they are all venerated as if they were God.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2989 - August 08, 2018, 01:14 PM

    Marc S was talking about a passage from the sīra and I about Q 5:116. I thought there was a connection between the former and the latter. Anyways, Q 5:116 does not consider Mary as part of the Trinity. It is a simple anti-Trinitarian polemic that is very common in the Quran. In other words, there is nothing wrong with Q 5:116.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2990 - August 08, 2018, 02:01 PM

    Quote
    Could be the same case with Q 5:116, were mother is another word for the Holy Spirit. Or it could be based on Q 5:116 were the impression is that Mary is part of the Trinity.

    It is a false impression. Mary is venerated but is not part of the Trinity.



    let us not confuse the readers with our own assumptions ...  This Trinity  in some  Christian  faith heads
     refers to "Father, Son, Holy Ghost"; "Holy Trinity" .. NO MARY IN IT...

     Many people assume  everything that bears the label “Christian” must have originated with Jesus Christ(ASSUMING JESUS WAS TRUE FIGURE) and His early followers. But that is not true..

    https://christianityoriginal.com/mp/index.php/worship/history

    PS..  everything at that link is NOT true but it gives  some dates on the origin of trinity in Christianity
    Quote
    5: 116:    And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2991 - August 08, 2018, 02:02 PM

    Well, yeah, Mary is not part of the Trinity. Who says otherwise?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2992 - August 08, 2018, 02:06 PM

    Mahgraye : Well, yeah, Mary is not part of the Trinity. Who says otherwise?
     
     
    Could be the same case with Q 5:116, were mother is another word for the Holy Spirit. Or it could be based on Q 5:116 were the impression is that Mary is part of the Trinity.


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2993 - August 08, 2018, 02:07 PM

    Everyone here seems to have misunderstood what I wrote. I do not claim, and neither does Q 5:116, that Mary is part of the Trinity. Hope that clarifies.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2994 - August 08, 2018, 02:10 PM

    Well, yeah, Mary is not part of the Trinity. Who says otherwise?


    One would think this clears it.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2995 - August 08, 2018, 02:14 PM

    Still not sure what the issue is. Is it what I wrote (which I just clarified) or Q 5:116?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2996 - August 08, 2018, 04:04 PM

    But why describe a false trinity? What does it say about the author of the Quran?


    It is clear from Ibn Ishaq Sira and the description of the encounter of Muhammad and the christians of Najran and how their beliefs are portrayed as well as the exegesis of surah 5:116 that muslims did read 5:116 and thought Mary is part of the Trinity, though modern muslim scholars would deny that because they don't want to admit what would be Alllah's blunder.

    Gallez does explain on his website that the mistake doesn't lie with the author of the Quran but with the commentators of the Quran who didn't get it. Gallez says that the Holy Spirit was also called mother in aramean (that was an habit to speak like this) and it therefore was called the mother of Jesus.

    I think Gallez is right, especially because I think that the writers of the tradition in the 9th century had nothing to do with the writers of the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2997 - August 08, 2018, 04:45 PM

    What Marc S wrote is basically what I was trying to convey. As soon as I get home I will attempt to explain the verse and provide the relevant citation.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2998 - August 08, 2018, 07:14 PM

    Yes, Marc,

    That explanation of Gallez makes sense!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2999 - August 08, 2018, 09:29 PM

    Every Aramaic speaking person of the region, including mostly Christians, but also Jews and Nazoreans, understood “mother” as a reference to the Holy Spirit, as it is still used today among Aramaic speaking Christians, such as Chaldeans. Support for this can be found in the writings of Origen and Jerome:

    “But in the gospel written according to the Hebrews which the Nazoreans read, the Lord [Jesus] says: ‘Just now, my mother, the holy spirit, lifted me up.” (Jerome, in Esaiam 40:9); “Just now my mother, the holy spirit, lifted me up by one of my hairs and brought me to the great mountain Thabor.” (Origen, in Johannem 2:12)

    Looking at the exegetical literature from the ninth century onwards, one notices that this crucial observation did not escape all Muslim commentators. Some, most notable Ṭabarī, Zamakhsharī, Bayḍāwī, and a few others, were well-aware that Christians do not consider Mary as being part of the Trinity. For them, the verse refers to the Holy Spirit and not the Virgin Mary.  

    Moreover, the word rūḥ (“spirit”) in ancient Arabic, just like in Hebrew and Aramaic, is feminine.

    Édouard-Marie Gallez, Le messie et son prophète: Aux origines de l’Islam, tome 2: “De Qumrân à Muḥammad,” (Versailles: Éditions de Paris, 2005), pp. 74–83. See also François de Blois, “Naṣrānī (Nazoraios) and Ḥanīf (ethnikos): Studies on the Religious Vocabulary of Christianity and of Islam.” Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies 65 (2002), pp. 14–15.

    Digression: As one can see, the sources for this are Gallez and de Blois, and whilst not necessarily relevant to the argument, there is, however, an important difference between the two. Contra de Blois, Gallez does not think that those targeted by the verse are Nazoreans, but Trinitarian Christians; whilst for de Blois, the exact opposite is the case. But that is neither here nor there since it does not impact the explanatory power of the explanation at all.

    As it is to be expected, not everyone is going to be convinced by this rather ingenious explanation. One could also, as some scholars do, interpret the verse as typical polemical text were the Qurʾān’s creative rhetoric is at display. The text is by no means pursuing accuracy, but rather, is intentionally being polemical, employing a reduction ad absurdum argument: “if you make Jesus God and the son of God, and if you say that Mary is not only the mother of Jesus, but also the mother of God (Theotokos), then the only logical conclusion (to be rejected, of course) is that Mary should be divine too.” In other words, the verse has as its target the concept of Theotokos: Mary, mother of God. Thus, and contrary to the first explanation, here it is an issue of Mariology, not the Trinity.

    Other instances were a similar rhetorical stratagem is employed can be found at least two additional verses: 9:31 (Jews worship their rabbis) and 25:3 (so-called “associators” having “gods” [āliha]).

    Guillaume Dye, “Jewish Christianity, the Qurʾān, and Early Islam: Some methodological caveats,” in Jewish Christianity and the Origins of Islam, ed. F. del Río Sánchez (Turnhout: Brepols Publishers, 2018), pp. 22–23. Others accepts this view as well: Tor Andræ, Muhammed: hans liv och hans tro (Stockholm: Hjalmarson & Högberg Bokförlag, 2008); Gabriel Said Reynolds, “On the Presentation of Christianity in the Qurʾān and the Many Aspects of Qur’anic Rhetoric,” Al-Bayān – Journal of Qurʾān and Ḥadīth Studies 12 (2014), 52–54; Mehdi Azaiez, Gabriel Said Reynolds, Tommaso Tesei & Hamza M. Zafer (eds.), The Qurʾan Seminar Commentary / Le Qurʾan Seminar: A Collaborative Study of 50 Qurʾanic Passages / Commentaire collaboratif de 50 passages coraniques (Berlin: Walter de Gruyter, 2016), pp. 260–261.

    In sum, and no matter the preferred explanation, Q 5:116 does not imply that Christians worship Mary by including her in the Trinity. Excepting the second explanation, the verse does not even address the Trinity to begin with. The Qurʾān came about in a monotheistic milieu. A Christian milieu, to be precise. Claiming that it misunderstood the Trinity in such an egregious manner is not only implausible, but impossible, and an insult to the Qurʾān.

    Sources:

    Joseph Azzi, Le prêtre et le prophète: aux sources du Coran (Paris: Maisonneuve et Larose, 2001), p. 169.

    Édouard-Marie Gallez, Le messie et son prophète: Aux origines de l’Islam, tome 2: “De Qumrân à Muḥammad,” (Versailles: Éditions de Paris, 2005), pp. 74–83.

    François de Blois, “Naṣrānī (Nazoraios) and Ḥanīf (ethnikos): Studies on the Religious Vocabulary of Christianity and of Islam.” Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies 65 (2002), pp. 14–15.

    Gabriel Said Reynolds, “On the Presentation of Christianity in the Qurʾān and the Many Aspects of Qur’anic Rhetoric,” Al-Bayān – Journal of Qurʾān and Ḥadīth Studies 12 (2014), 52–54

    Guillaume Dye, “Jewish Christianity, the Qurʾān, and Early Islam: Some methodological caveats,” in Jewish Christianity and the Origins of Islam, ed. F. del Río Sánchez (Turnhout: Brepols Publishers, 2018), pp. 22–23.

    Mehdi Azaiez, Gabriel Said Reynolds, Tommaso Tesei & Hamza M. Zafer (eds.), The Qurʾan Seminar Commentary / Le Qurʾan Seminar: A Collaborative Study of 50 Qurʾanic Passages / Commentaire collaboratif de 50 passages coraniques (Berlin: Walter de Gruyter, 2016), pp. 260–261.

    Tor Andræ, Muhammed: hans liv och hans tro (Stockholm: Hjalmarson & Högberg Bokförlag, 2008).
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