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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3660 - September 03, 2018, 08:01 PM

    Did the Romans go to India and China to take over the trade from the Arabs/ Nabateans?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3661 - September 03, 2018, 08:05 PM

    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3662 - September 03, 2018, 08:38 PM


    The Quran was redacted under the Umayyad Abd al-Malik


    Maybe

    Quote
    The Abbasids are linked to the Umayyad’s


    See Raymond Dequin paper in german on the Inarah website.

    Quote
    Muhammad did not exist but was a another name for Jesus


    They also say that 'Ali is another name for Jesus.


    Quote
    Muawiya was a Christian king


    There are many clues that hint to that in muslim as well as non muslim sources.

    Quote
    The early Muslims were some kind of Arab Christians

    No they were a confederation of different faiths

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3663 - September 03, 2018, 08:58 PM

    Quote
    Muawiya was a Christian king/ There are many clues that hint to that in muslim as well as non muslim sources


    Therefore the Meccans ( birth place of Muawiya... according to the Muslim sources) would have been Christians?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3664 - September 04, 2018, 06:48 AM

    How does this new map influence the debate about the origins of the Quran?
    Gabriel S. Reynolds:
    "This has enormous implications for thinking through the linguistic context of the Qur'an. Whereas Mingana (and Luxenberg) only imagined Syro-Aramaic now we must consider the constellation of Arabic languages/dialects."https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1036577173652611072
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3665 - September 04, 2018, 07:10 AM

    In continuation of Bjorns post:

    In the thread Jallad posts on Surah 108 this article of M. Baasten: https://www.academia.edu/33782506/_A_Syriac_Reading_of_the_Qur%C4%81n_The_Case_of_S%C5%ABrat_al-Kawthar

    This to somehow minimise the Syriac/Christian/Biblical influence in favour of more Arabness... well I really dont understand what Jallad wants to prove..

    The Baasten article, I find very interesting. It proves how dense the Quran's classical reading is and for a whole lot of verses a rereading seems appropriate. Baasten does feel the need to belittle Luxenberg somewhat but his conclusion is that Luxenberg's result is right of his rereading. According to Baasten, Luxenberg got the right result with the wrong method.

    For me that is interesting. Using the Syro-Aramaic Lesart, which is denounced as faulty by every self-respecting mainstream scholar, and getting the reading right. Wonderful!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3666 - September 04, 2018, 08:17 AM

    Mahgraye reads Markus gross
    Quote
    Markus Gross is one of the founders...........................Although he does take some more conclusive stands, his article is – as I just noted – an overview of old and new research. Some of the findings highlighted in the paper – going by my memory – include:

    Mecca did not exist and is a later literary fiction   

    The Quran is a product of a written transmission and not an oral one

    The genealogy of the Quran cannot be placed in today’s Mecca and Medina but somewhere further to the north

    The Quran was redacted under the Umayyad Abd al-Malik

    Abd al-Malik was not from Mecca but from Marv, hence his name, Abd al-Malik b. Marw-an

    Islam (or the Quran) was composed somewhere around the Silk Road

    The Abbasids are linked to the Umayyad’s

    There were not conquests as recounted by the Arab sources

    The hijrah as recounted by the Arab sources is fictional, and the actual hijrah marked the year the Byzantines vanquished the Sasanians at the hand of their Arab vassals, and hence, the year of the Arabs

    The Quran was not written in Classical Arabic, but in a Aramaic-Arabic mixed-language

    The Quran is a product of multiple authors

    Much of the later narratives are literary fictions based on the Old Testament and all go back to a book by Ibn Abd al-Hakam
     
    The Muslim pilgrimage and its rituals is based on Buddhist practices

    Muhammad did not exist but was a another name for Jesus

    The terms Islam and Muslims did not exist until the third century AH

    Muawiya was a Christian king

    The early Muslims were some kind of Arab Christians

    These are some of the things I remember from the paper. Please read for additional information and any mistaken from my side.


    Why not?  1400 years of the building of the Islamic civilization then would be destroyed.

    Maghraye, thanks for the PDF.

    1/Yes
    2/Idem
    3/not necessarily north.
    4/not necessarily
    5/ Possible
    6/Idem
    7/not conquests as recounted : there was war.Not necessarily "conquest".
    8/The hijrah : nope.
    9/The Quran was not written : nobody know what is Quranic Arabic
    10/The Quran is a product of multiple authors : yes
    11/Much of the later narratives are literary fictions : taken from the Quran
    12/The Muslim pilgrimage : lulz
    13/Muhammad did not exist but was a another name for Jesus : 1/ yes 2/ muhammad is an adjective qualifying Jesus in the Dome's inscription. Not a proper name.
    14/The terms Islam : yes
    15/Muawiya was a Christian king : nope
    16/The early Muslims were some kind of Arab Christians : nope



    Wooo.. I didn't know all that is there in that paper   of  Markus Gross  Early Islam: An Alternative Scenario of its Emergence. Markus Gross  I must read it in its entirety

    Markus Gross is one of the founders of the Inârah Institute in Germany. In the following contribution under question, he attempts to present a new perspective of the emergence of Early Islam by summarizing the findings of the members of the Inârah Institute. Although he does take some more conclusive stands, his article is – as I just noted – an overview of old and new research./quote]well  Mahgraye  I don't give much  importance to such issues that only tells  me he is well connected to funding institution private or state.....


    So do you think he is correct in assessment of  history of origins of Quran and Islam ....through ARAB Christians??

    I don't know whether that word Arab Christians is a right word.. ........Christian converts of Arabia ??.......

    So on these words

    Quote
    Maghraye:  Muawiya was a Christian king

    Altara:  15/Muawiya was a Christian king : nope

    let me read  Abu Talha Zahack

    https://abutalhazahack.com/2017/11/01/legacy-muawiyah/
    https://abutalhazahack.com/author/abutalhazahack/
    https://abutalhazahack.com/


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3667 - September 04, 2018, 08:46 AM

    Quote
    In the thread Jallad posts on Surah 108


    Can you link the thread?

    Quote
    this article of M. Baasten


    It is unclear to me : Jallad linked the Baasten article in the Surah 108 thread ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3668 - September 04, 2018, 08:52 AM

    Therefore the Meccans ( birth place of Muawiya... according to the Muslim sources) would have been Christians?


    Now you believe Muawiya to be born in Mecca  Wink

    One strange thing in the muslim narrative : no christian in Medina but :

    - the people who helped Muhammad are called ansar (whose rasm  NSR is similar to the rasm of Nasara = Christians),
    - up to this day the Syriac Orthodox Church celebrate every June 15th the building of the first church dedicated to Mary, a church built in........Yathrib


    Peter Von Sivers is supposed to release a book this year on islamic origins. He will use part of a paper he wrote for the latest book from the Inarah Institute DIE ENTSTEHUNG EINER WELTRELIGION IV MOHAMMED – GESCHICHTE ODER MYTHOS? ; the title of this paper is Muʿāwiya, Herrscher der Gläubigen, aber welchen Glaubens?....., that translate as Muawiya, Commander of the Believers, but what faith ? Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get the article so far.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3669 - September 04, 2018, 08:54 AM

    A link to some papers by Inarah members ; you need to scroll down ; some of them are in English, others in German.

    http://inarah.net/publications
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3670 - September 04, 2018, 08:59 AM

    Now you believe Muawiya to be born in Mecca  Wink

    ..................

     Cheesy Cheesy  ...

    Becca  mecca Becca mecca
      Born in USA
    Born in Becca


    Quote
    WHY I LOVE MUAWIYAH IBN ABU-SUFYAN?  Posted on November 1, 2017 by Abu Talha Zahack


    It was the legacy of Muawiyah ibn Abu-Sufiyan (may Allah be pleased with him) that continues till today. I love this gentleman so much so that, I gave no second thought when Allah blessed me with 2nd son and I named him Muawiyah.

    “In terms of his appearance, he was fair and tall, bald with a white head and he had a beard that he used to color with henna. He was mild-tempered, dignified, dominant and noble amongst the people, generous, just and astute.” – Al-Bidāya wa-n-nihāya page-113

    According to al-Baladhuri, Urwa ibn az-Zubayr, relating from his father, Aisha said “I went to the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, who was in a room with Umm Habiba (Muawiyah’s sister and Muhammad’s ﷺ wife) on her day. Muawiyah knocked on the door and he gave him permission to enter, which he did. He had a pen behind his ear which he had not used. The Prophet ﷺ said, ‘What is this on your ear?’ He said, ‘A pen which I have made ready for Allah and His Messenger.’ The Prophet ﷺ said. ‘May Allah repay you well on behalf of your Prophet! By Allah, I will only ask you to write down revelation from heaven.”

    Muawiyah’s unique and awesome style of Ruling his kingdom: Under Muawiyah’s governance the Syrian army became a major military force. He picked out the best leaders from various tribes where as elsewhere in the state the military units were still based along tribal lines. He personally saw to the comfort and the equipment of the troops, increased their pay and paid them on a regular basis when they were on duty. He kept the troops in training by an annual expedition against the Byzantines and therefore kept the Byzantines in a constant state of unease and therefore kept his northern border safe. He took Qaysariyya in 19 AH. He encouraged innovations in military technology. Muawiyah’s armies used “Minjenique” machines to propel large stones onto enemy ramparts. He modernized the army, introducing specialized units for desert combat and snowy terrains. New forts were also built.

    Muawiyah left the Byzantine and Persian administrative structures intact, being sure not to give his largely non-Muslims subjects any incentive to revolt.

    Muawiyah built up a professional and disciplined army where people were promoted on their abilities not along tribal lines. Additionally the army units were not based along tribal lines, but along the disciplines and the type of warfare they specialized in. While on expeditions, Muawiyah provided for their families. In the early days, before the battle of Saffin, Muawiyah and the Syrians also served under Ali. According to Ali “Sometimes they would even set out without provisions, without asking for pay. At the call of Muawiyah, they put themselves on campaigns for two, even three times a year, not caring where he wanted to take them (Tabri 1,3410).

    Prophet’s ﷺ grandson Hussein ibn Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) would frequently visit Muawiyah with his brother and he would show great hospitality in return. Following Hassan’s (may Allah be pleased with him) death, Hussein would travel to see Muawiyah (may Allah be pleased with him) every year and in return Muawiyah would show great hospitality. The Caliphate of Banu Umayyah The First Phase Taken from Al-Bidayah Wan-nihayah. page 134.

    During Mu’awiya’s rule he put into practice the advice that Muhammad ﷺ had given him, “When you rule, do it well.” He was scrupulous about justice and was generous and fair to people of all classes. He honored people who possessed ability and talent and helped them to advance their talents, regardless of their tribe. He displayed great forbearance towards the rashness of ignorant men and great generosity towards the grasping. He made the judgements of the Shari’a binding on everyone with resolution, compassion and diligence. He led them in their prayers and directed them in their gatherings. He led them in their wars. In short, he proved to be a balanced and model ruler. ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Abbas stated that he did not see a man more suited to rule than Mu’awiya. [Bewley 2002, p. 8-9.]

    The first major library was formed by Muawiyah: Muawiyah had a personal library collection (bayt al-hikmah) that was enlarged by his successors “throughout the Umayyad period.… This first major library outside of a mosque was known to include works on astrology, medicine, chemistry, military science, and various practical arts and applied sciences in addition to religion.” M. Lesley Wilkins (1994), “Islamic Libraries to 1920”, Encyclopedia of Library History, New York: Garland Pub.

    Christian Historians praise for Muawiyah:

    Writings of the Nestorian Christian John bar Penkaye in the 690s says about Muawiyah, “the peace throughout the world was such that we have never heard, either from our fathers or from our grandparents, or seen that there had ever been any like it”.  ‘The Great Arab Conquests’ By Hugh Kennedy, page 349.

    Praise for Muawiyah from our pious Imams and Sahaba of the past:

    Al-Hasan al-Basree about Mu’aawiyah radhiallahu anhu: It was said to al-Hasan rahimahullah: O Abu Sa’eed! Verily there are people here who bear witness that Mu’aawiyah radhiallahu anhu is from the people of Fire. He replied: “Allaah’s curse be on them! How do they know who is in the fire?” – [al-Istee’aab (1/631)]

    Al-Fudhail Ibn ‘Iyyaadh about Mu’aawiyah radhiallahu anhu: Al-Fudhail Ibn ‘Iyyaadh rahimahullah used to pray for mercy for Mu’aawiyah radhiallahu anhu and use to say: “He was one of the scholars from the Companions of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam.” [Al-Sunnah of al-Khallaal (2/438)]

    It is reported that Bishr b. Al-Harith said: I heard Al-Fudayl b. ‘Ayyad say, “It has reached me that Allah has barred repentance from every adherent of bid’ah (religious innovation), and the worst of the people of bid’ah are those who hate the Companions of Allah’s Messenger – Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him.” He then turned to me and said, “Make the firmest of your deeds with Allah your love for the Companions of His Prophet, for [then], were you to come to the standing of judgment (on the Day of Resurrection) with the likes of the Earth in sins, Allah would forgive you; but if you come [on that Day] with even the smallest amount of hatred for them, no [good] deed will benefit you.” [Abu Bakr Al-Daynuri, Al-Mujalasah wa Jawahir Al-‘Ilm 5: 412]

    Al-Ma’aafa bin ‘Imraan** about Mu’aawiyah radhiallahu anhu: A man asked al-Ma’aafa bin ‘Imraan: “O Abu Mas’ood! How is ‘Umar Ibn ‘Abdul-‘Azeez in comparison to Mu’aawiyah Ibn Abu Sufyaan?” Because of this al-Ma’aaf got extremely angry and said: “There is no one comparable with the Companions of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. Mu’aawiyah accompanied (the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam), was his brother in-law, was his Kaatib (scribe) and his trustworthy over the Wahee (revelations) of Allaah.”  [Tareekh Baghdaad (1/209)]

    Al-Ma’aafa was also asked: Is Mu’aawiyah better or ‘Umar bin ‘Abdul-‘Azeez? He replied: “Mu’aawiyah is six hundred times better than the likes of ‘Umar bin ‘Abdul-‘Azeez.”  [Al-Sunnah of al-Khallaal (2/433/664)]

    For his uniqueness, his piety, his forbearance, and his commitment to establish justice on earth, I love Muawiyah (may Allah be pleased with him), no matter Khomeni the devil wrote against him, Syed Qutb of Ikhwanul-Muslimeen accused him of treachery and lies, and Maududi calls for highlighting his mistakes. The statements of Sahaba and As-Salaaf are more important to me, than the modern day deviant thinkers and propagandists

    .

    So how many of guys believe that   legacy of Muawiyah ibn Abu-Sufiyan and how difficult is to write such stories in Islam during say 7th century to 10th century ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3671 - September 04, 2018, 09:04 AM

    A link to some papers by Inarah members ; you need to scroll down ; some of them are in English, others in German.

    http://inarah.net/publications

      thanks

    Quote
    Institute for Research   on Early Islamic History   and the Koran

    Klimmt, Reinhard (Chairman),
    Historian, former Minister-President of the Saarland, former Federal minister of Transport and Infrastructure – Saarbrücken

    Toscani, Stephan (Deputy Chairman),
    Jurist, numerous political offices and functions, as of May 2012 State Minister of Finance and European Affairs of the Saarland –  Saarbrücken

    Egetmeyer, Prof. Dr Markus
    Professor, Linguistique grecque, Université Paris-Sorbonne (Paris IV)

    Flasch, Prof. em. Dr Kurt
    Philosophy, at the Ruhr-University Bochum. Member of the Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei (Rome), the Accademia Toscana di Scienze e Lettere “La Colombaria” (Florence) and the Deutsche Akademie für Sprache und Dichtung (Mainz)

    Ghadban, Dr Ralph
    Islamologist and political scientist – Berlin

    Gouguenheim, Prof. Dr Sylvain
    Professor, Mediæval history,  École normale supérieure, Lyon (ENS LSH)

    Ibn Warraq
    Islamologist and publisher – New York, USA

    Kropp, Prof. em. Dr Manfred
    Islamology and Semitics at the Seminar für Orientkunde, Universität Mainz. 1999-2007 Director of the Orient-Institute of the Deutsche Morgenländische Gesellschaft in Beirut-Istanbul; 2007-2008 visiting professor at the Collège de France (Paris) – Mainz

    Luxenberg, Dr Christoph
    Semitist und Arabist, Author of The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran – A Contribution to the Decoding of the Koran, Berlin (2007), and numerous contributions to various Inârah Publications.

    Muller, Jean-Claude MA (Oxford, Paris und Yale),
    Comparative linguistics and Oriental studies;  Director em. of the Bibliothèque nationale de Luxembourg – Luxembourg

    Sivers, Prof. Dr Peter von
    Professor of Middle Eastern History at the University of Utah, College of Humanities, Middle East Center – Salt Lake City, USA

    Wagner, Dr Helmut Abu Limor
    Businessman, Arabist and Islamologist, Saarbrücken


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3672 - September 04, 2018, 09:18 AM

    Altara and Bjorn:

    This was Bjorn's link: https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1036577173652611072

    Jallad chimed in to diminish the Syriac influence in the Quran somehow (if I understood this right) and posted this Baasten article I commented on.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3673 - September 04, 2018, 09:18 AM

    Now you believe Muawiya to be born in Mecca  Wink


    Nope Wink I just try to understand according to the narrative (Therefore the Meccans ( birth place of Muawiya... according to the Muslim sources) would have been Christians?) and what you say.

    Quote
    One strange thing in the muslim narrative


    Nope. First in the Quran from which Muslim narratives where elaborated.

    Quote
    : no christian in Medina but :

    - the people who helped Muhammad are called ansar (whose rasm  NSR is similar to the rasm of Nasara = Christians),
    - up to this day the Syriac Orthodox Church celebrate every June 15th the building of the first church dedicated to Mary, a church built in........Yathrib


    1/  Yes. I have an explication on this, but it is not the place, etc.
    2/ I did not know that, LOL!


    Quote
    Peter Von Sivers is supposed to release a book this year on islamic origins. He will use part of a paper he wrote for the latest book from the Inarah Institute DIE ENTSTEHUNG EINER WELTRELIGION IV MOHAMMED – GESCHICHTE ODER MYTHOS? ; the title of this paper is Muʿāwiya, Herrscher der Gläubigen, aber welchen Glaubens?....., that translate as Muawiya, Commander of the Believers, but what faith ? Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get the article so far.


     Von Sivers is always interesting.
    (I repeat here that when I say this kind of thing, that does not mean necessarily that I'm agree with what he/she says...)
    The issue with  Inarah Institute is that nobody read German and all read English/French. Their project should have been thought to be available not only for  those who read German .
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3674 - September 04, 2018, 09:21 AM

    Cheesy Cheesy  ...

    Becca  mecca Becca mecca
      Born in USA
    Born in Becca

    .

    So how many of guys believe that   legacy of Muawiyah ibn Abu-Sufiyan and how difficult is to write such stories in Islam during say 7th century to 10th century ??


    1/Muslim narrative.
    2/ Not at all difficult.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3675 - September 04, 2018, 10:56 AM

    Altara and Bjorn:

    This was Bjorn's link: https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1036577173652611072

    Jallad chimed in to diminish the Syriac influence in the Quran somehow (if I understood this right) and posted this Baasten article I commented on.

    Jallad takes only what he is agree with in the Baasten article. He's pretending not to see  that Baasten  say that : "

    Quote
    On the basis of a comparison with other Qurʾanic passages, there is reason
    to assume that Luxenberg’s general interpretation of Sūrat al-Kawṯar—with
    some minor modifications I proposed in the foregoing—is probably the correct
    one
    and he is to be credited for that achievement.

    When Baasten says "but there is no reason to speak of a specifically Syriac
    reading of the Qurʾan." He knows perfectly well that Luxenberg did not use Japanese or Nahuatl to reach to what  him (Baasten) is agree with him, but Syriac.
    Baasten could have invented another more credible conclusion than to play on words about the tittle of Luxenberg book  :" but there is no reason to speak of a specifically Syriac reading of the Qurʾan." like he did. Because his text says exactly the contrary.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3676 - September 04, 2018, 11:15 AM

    Altara,

    Quote
    Baasten could have invented another more credible conclusion than to play on words about the tittle of Luxenberg book  :" but there is no reason to speak of a specifically Syriac reading of the Qurʾan." like he did. Because his text says exactly the contrary.


    Agree completely.
    The Syro-Aramaic lesart apparently works but the scholars say it is wrong but the result is right. What was Jallad trying to prove? Or are these scholars so embedded in this unity thinking (Luxenebrg is wrong) that that they don't see the forest and only look at the trees?

    Baasten and co seem to see these different semitic languages as having walls separating them. Either origin is from one, either from the other...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3677 - September 04, 2018, 11:26 AM

    Someone might help me to understand what is currently being discussed at the moment. As Altara said, Baasten agrees with Luxenberg's reading of Q 108 but takes issue with some of his his Syriacisms. Nothing controversial.

    One more thing I should have mentioned about the Gross article: Bakkah is not Mecca but a Palestinian valley of tears. See his article with Ibn Warraq, cited in the article.

    Mundi - what do you mean by saying that the Syriac lesart works?

    Altara - Is Jallad's map wrong? Do you think it undermines Luxenberg and Mingana's respective work?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3678 - September 04, 2018, 11:36 AM

    Magraye,

    Baasten says Luxenberg is right on his reading of the surah. So for this surah the Lesart worked... It is significant that for 1000 yrs plus Arabic exegetes read it wrong, and here comes luxenberg with his Syriac-Aramaic reading and he gets it right.

    Map-Luxenberg: I dont see how it undermines anything. Maybe someone can explain?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3679 - September 04, 2018, 11:44 AM

    Why is Baasten article study cited as a refutation of Luxenberg? If anything, Baasten accepted Luxenberg's reading and even bolstered it. At most, he refuted some of Luxenberg's Syriacisms. That is all.

    Mundi - Do you think the Quran was written in a Arabic-Aramaic mixed-language?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3680 - September 04, 2018, 11:50 AM

    Magraye,

    Jallad introduced Baasten's article to counter this Syriac influence. I do agree that it doesnt, although the tone in the article is "anti-Luxenberg". So why does Jallad see it as a refutation?

    Language of the Quran: I can't imagine that anyone in the ME where Quran originated spoke a pure language. When I see how in my life time languages get influenced by others in very short times, why would it have been different in Late Antiquity?

    My language is full of English terms in the IT sector, I would expect the Quran full of Syriac terms in the religious sector.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3681 - September 04, 2018, 12:09 PM

    Altara,

    Agree completely.
    The Syro-Aramaic lesart apparently works but the scholars say it is wrong but the result is right. What was Jallad trying to prove?

    He's trying to muddy the waters, telling that Baasten is on his side. Whereas it's wrong and "true" because Baasten says Luxenberg  is right saying he's wrong .

     
    Quote
    Or are these scholars so embedded in this unity thinking (Luxenebrg is wrong) that that they don't see the forest and only look at the trees?

    They are not acting in good faith because they say he's wrong saying he's right. Because it calls into question the narrative and therefore the origin of the Quranic corpus since the narrative give the explication of its existence (Mecca/Kaba/Zem Zem/"prophet) and this is very dangereous (career/ aggressions)

    Quote
    Baasten and co seem to see these different Semitic languages as having walls separating them. Either origin is from one, either from the other..

    I think Quranic Arabic attests that Syriac and Arabic was much more intermingled that we thought ; then it is very difficult to extract from the rasm  a genuine etymology "Arabic" or "Syriac" as we do not  have any other literary text before the Quran.




  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3682 - September 04, 2018, 12:20 PM

    Someone might help me to understand what is currently being discussed at the moment. As Altara said, Baasten agrees with Luxenberg's reading of Q 108 but takes issue with some of his his Syriacisms. Nothing controversial.


    Get to the twitter thread Mundi has given above.
    Quote
    One more thing I should have mentioned about the Gross article: Bakkah is not Mecca but a Palestinian valley of tears. See his article with Ibn Warraq, cited in the article.


    It's a valley of Jerusalem  which lead to the Temple taken for the traditional pilgrimage of the Jews to the Temple.

    Quote
    Mundi - what do you mean by saying that the Syriac lesart works?


    That it works (almost for  Q 108).

    Quote
    Altara - Is Jallad's map wrong? Do you think it undermines Luxenberg and Mingana's respective work?


    Yes it is wrong because it lacks many precisions (date, places, and political power).
    As I already said Jallad is not a scholar, he is a Muslim scholar incapable to set aside his faith in the narrative. And nobody of his "friends"  ( van Putten, etc) is able to tell him , because they are "friends" and Jallad plays on that.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3683 - September 04, 2018, 12:25 PM

    Magraye,

    Jallad introduced Baasten's article to counter this Syriac influence. I do agree that it doesnt, although the tone in the article is "anti-Luxenberg". So why does Jallad see it as a refutation?


    Because he lies, and he knows very well that nobody of his "friends" will tell him. He's trying to muddy the waters, telling that Baasten is on his side. Whereas it's wrong and "true" because Baasten says Luxenberg  is right and says (badly...) he's wrong .

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3684 - September 04, 2018, 12:52 PM

    Jallad's map,

    What does it prove according to Jallad and co? Can anyone tell me that?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3685 - September 04, 2018, 01:34 PM

    It proves nothing. All "and co" say it's "Marvellous!!!"  but there is nothing.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3686 - September 04, 2018, 01:50 PM

    Magraye,

    My language is full of English terms in the IT sector, I would expect the Quran full of Syriac terms in the religious sector.


    And you're right, as Syriac is the language of Christianity since 500 years in the 6 and 7th in Syria, Iraq and Yemen. As I already said, I think that North Arabic (Syria/Iraq) of the 4,5,6th c. is intermingled naturally with Syriac as we can observe for example with the Nabateans using Imperial Aramaic as their usual language in their earliest Nabateans inscriptions and their Arabic language more and more through time.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3687 - September 04, 2018, 01:51 PM

    Quote
    Jallad's map,

    What does it prove according to Jallad and co? Can anyone tell me that?

    and Altara  throws ice water on it..
    It proves nothing. All "and co" say it's "Marvellous!!!"  but there is nothing.


    Jallad's map,...... Ahmad Al-Jallad  map.................

    put the map on the board dear mundi.....this one  ??

     


    Quote
    Linguistic maps of #AncientArabia: The map on the left is the traditional linguistic map of pre-Islamic Arabia--a sea of Arabic, with Aramaic to the north and Ḥimyaritic to the south. The map on the right, a rough approximation, is what we now know because of #epigraphy!


    well i am NOT interested in maps  whose area was NEVER A NATION .. but this is interesting to read... The Hajj before Muhammad

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3688 - September 04, 2018, 03:23 PM

     "Journeys to Mecca in Muslim Narratives of Pre-Islamic History"

    All is said.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3689 - September 04, 2018, 03:43 PM

    "Journeys to Mecca in Muslim Narratives of Pre-Islamic History"

    All is said.

    well....

    Quote
    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Quote
    Peter Webb studied Arabic at SOAS, University of London and at the University of Damascus. He then qualified as a solicitor in the insolvency and restructuring law practice at Clifford Chance LLP in London before returning to academia and a Ph.D. at SOAS in Languages and Cultures of the Near and Middle East. Following his Ph.D., he was awarded an Art Histories and Aesthetic Practices Fellowship 2014-15 by the Forum Transregionale Studien, Berlin, and a British Academy Postdoctoral Fellowship in 2015, hosted at SOAS. He joined Leiden University in 2017.

    In August 2017, Peter Webb received a Veni grant from the Netherlands Organisation for Scientific Research (NWO) for his research projec


    Webb P.A. (2017), Identity and Social Formation in the Early Caliphate. In: Berg H. (Ed.) Routledge Handbook on Early Islam. London: Routledge. 129-158.
    book chapter

    Ibn Qutaybah (2017), The Excellence of the Arabs [Fadl al-'Arab wa-l-tanbih 'ala 'ulumiha] (translation: Montgomery J., Savant S. & Webb P.A.). New York and Abu Dhabi: New York University Press.
    book

    Webb P.A. (2016), Imagining the Arabs: Arab Identity and the Rise of Islam. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press.
    book

    Webb P.A. (2016), Muḥammad und die gāhiliyya: Die vorislamische Zeit im prophetischen ḥadīt. In: Schmidt Nora, Schmid Nora K, Neuwirth Angelika (Eds.) Denkraum Spätantike. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz. 447-466.
    book chapter

    Webb P.A. (2015), Pre-Islamic al-Shām in Classical Arabic Literature: Spatial narratives and history-telling, Studia Islamika 110(2): 1-30.
    article in journal: refereed

    Webb P.A. (2014), Al-Jāhiliyya: Uncertain Times of Uncertain Meanings, Der Islam 91(1): 69-94.
    article in journal: refereed

    Webb P.A. (2013), Poetry and the Early Islamic Historical Tradition: Poetry and narratives of the Battle of Ṣiffīn. In: Kennedy Hugh (Ed.) Poetry and Warfare in Middle Eastern Literatures. London: IB Tauris. 119-141.
    book chapter

    Webb P.A. (2013), The Hajj before Muhammad: Journeys to Mecca in Muslim Narratives of Pre-Islamic History. In: Saif Liana, Porter Venetia (Eds.) The Hajj: Collected Papers. London: British Museum Press. 6-14.
    book chapter

    Webb P.A. (2012), ‘Foreign Books’ in Arabic Literature: discourses on books, knowlegde and ethnicity in the writings of al-Jahiz, Arabica: Journal of Arabic and Islamic Studies/Arabica: Revue d'Etudes Arabes 12(1): 16-55.
     

    Webb P.A. (2012), Muhammad’s ascension to the Heavenly Spheres: ‘Utopian Travel’: Fact and Fiction in making Utopias, Middle Eastern Literatures 15(3): 240-256.
    article in journal: refereed



    Book reviews
    Webb P.A. (2018), Review of: Shahab Ahmed (2017) Before Orthodoxy: the Satanic Verses in Early Islam, Journal of Arabic Literature 49: 162-167.

    book review
    Webb P.A. (2017), Review of: Harry Munt (2014) The Holy City of Medina: Sacred Space in Early Islamic Arabia, The British Foundation for the Study of Arabia Bulletin 22: 43-45.

    book review
    Webb & Peter (2016), Review of: Konrad Hirschler Medieval Damascus: Plurality and Diversity in an Arabic Library, TLS : the Times Literary Supplement .

    book review
    Webb P.A. (2016), Review of: Greg Fisher (Ed.) Arabs and Empires before Islam, Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies 79(3): 640-642.

    book review
    Webb P.A. (2015), Review of: Aziz al-Azmeh (2014) The Emergence of Islam in Late Antiquity, Al-ʿUṣūr al-Wusṭā 23: 149-153.

    book review
    Webb P.A. (2015), Review of: Robert Hoyland (2015) In God's Path, TLS : the Times Literary Supplement .

    book review
    Webb P.A. (2013), Review of: Geert Jan van Gelder (2012) Classical Arabic Literature, TLS : the Times Literary Supplement .

    book review
    Webb P.A. (2012), Review of: Tom Holland In the Shadow of the Sword, Evening Standard .

    book review
    Webb P.A. (2012), Review of: Malcolm Lyons (2012) The Man of Wiles in Popular Arabic Literature, TLS : the Times Literary Supplement .
     

    Webb P.A. (2016), The origin of Arabs: Middle Eastern ethnicity and myth-making, British Academy Review 27(1): 34-39.
    article in journal


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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